Wheels
AH ambassador
Coming back to the point of modern urbanisation forcing people out of nature and into city style lives - if you have not seen this... OMG!!
Regards,
Adriaan
And these people VOTE!
Seems Darwin was wrong.
Coming back to the point of modern urbanisation forcing people out of nature and into city style lives - if you have not seen this... OMG!!
Regards,
Adriaan
Royal, if the registered breeder made $1M per year from selling 100 Lions, he's going to be trying to get as close to $1M for the year, by only selling 20 Lions under the new laws.
And these people VOTE!
Seems Darwin was wrong.
I like this exchange of ideas and feel that this whole thread has been turned into a positive one after a rocky startI had the same thoughts as Marius on prices going up significantly, although I agree that Jaco's idea is sure better than shutting down everything.
Any idea what the economics would be? Obviously a longer hunt would be required than now, and it would take more than the .5 day average it seems to take now to make the kill, which would reduce opportunity for other profit to be made through other animals. Not to mention increased costs for less hunts.
Not does it take into consideration that prices could do up even more due to the demand restriction.
Thoughts?
I'm the first to admit I don't know enough about the economics to guess.
Those prices will make wild lion hunting all the more attractive.... Or conversely make an RSA lion hunt that much less attractive, Therefore one might conclude that 1. Lion hunting will be out of reach for many hunters. 2. Wild lion hunts will be much more attractive, in comparison for the cost. 3. This will of course raise prices even further for wild lion hunts... 4. But will also increase demand and pressure/temptation to push the limits on the wild population. 5. Therefore this is a big negative for lion conservation.
I agree with you 100%The PH knows the farm they hunt on and know the ways the landowners operate. Must they not first confirm that the hunt is ethical (basic rules of hunting) for the client!
Again I agree 100%Yes, there are unscrupulous and unethical people out there. Don’t use their farms or animals and they will either abide to the rules or will disappear from the scene.
So if I've got my math right, you're expecting a 5x increase in prices, correct?
So if PHASA says it is cool , upstanding and decides all has been corrected , then its okay to " sport hunt " captive bred lions ?Roy, going after PHASA for the wording of a News release is a little off VS the policies / positions. I get that it sounds limp.
Fairly clear. PHASA does not support Canned Lion hunting. Captive Bred within the law and also states they will review policy on an ongoing basis.
It does beg the question: What is "canned"? Is this fence sitting.
PHASA can only discipline members, just like any professional association. If the offender quits the association the proceeding is over. There is no legal sanction available to PHASA.
PHASA Policy / Position Statement
http://phasa.co.za/about-phasa/policies-positions.html
Our policies and positions are dynamic and are developing constantly. We encourage our members to keep themselves abreast of these developments. Policies and positions are debated and formulated at our AGM, while updates are published in all our communications.
Attend the AGM and be part of the decision-making process!
PHASA policy on hunting (adopted at the PHASA AGM on 17 November 2010)
• PHASA supports the responsible hunting of all species in a sustainable, extensive wildlife system that can fend for themselves, provided that such species are hunted according to the laws of the land and the PHASA Code of Conduct.
PHASA position on the hunting of lions (adopted at the PHASA AGM on 21 November 2013)
• PHASA strongly opposes any form of ‘canned’ hunting and will discipline any of its members who participate in such activity.
• PHASA will continue to work with government and law enforcement agencies, as it has done in the past, to eradicate this practice.
• PHASA concurs with the South African government’s position that the breeding of lions in captivity does not threaten our wild lion populations or biodiversity in conservation and that the hunting of such lions is sustainable.
• PHASA acknowledges that the hunting of captive-bred lions will, for the foreseeable future, remain part of the South African hunting industry. PHASA believes that it is imperative that such hunting be undertaken in a responsible manner and that such hunts comply at all times with nature conservation laws, and conform to the PHASA Code of Conduct and other policies.
• Accordingly, PHASA accepts, as the MINIMUM norms for such hunting by its members, the Norms and Standards, as set out in the ‘POLICY DOCUMENT: Norms and Standards for Hunting Ranch Lions in South Africa’, as adopted by the South African Predator Association (SAPA) at its AGM, on 16 November 2013.
• PHASA views the SAPA norms as a stepping-stone to clean up the captive-bred lion hunting industry. PHASA does not believe that those norms are the final word on the hunting of lions.
• PHASA will always strongly advise its members to set the standards for hunting even higher. In this regard, PHASA is in the process of further dialogue with SAPA.
• PHASA believes that the hunting of captive-bred lions MUST result in direct funding for conservation and research programmes, in respect of wild lions. Furthermore, PHASA believes that such hunting MUST contribute to social upliftment projects, especially in our poorer rural communities. PHASA has, through the Fund, a proud and phenomenal history in these fields and will use its expertise to make a meaningful contribution. PHASA is in the process of discussing such funding with SAPA and is also looking at such projects on its own.
• PHASA welcomes working with all stakeholders to develop a coherent approach to the long-term future of our wildlife and natural areas.
• PHASA is a dynamic association that continues to monitor developments. PHASA will do the same with the lion hunting industry and, from time to time, review its position.
Extract – complete position paper available from the PHASA office or website.
Royal, if the registered breeder made $1M per year from selling 100 Lions, he's going to be trying to get as close to $1M for the year, by only selling 20 Lions under the new laws.
Release period NORTH WEST ..... 96 hours... I'm being serious.
Property size 1000ha being serious again.
Hank221 PHASA had been working with SAPA for two years as karoowild also mentioned but little to no headway had been made.
Problem lies in this, SAPA is a breeders accosiation but many of they're members are the landowners on which the lions are shot, they want turn over 2 days in next one(client) standing in line to come in its become a big money spinner....
The issue is not fences, size of land, wilding period, conditions under which the hunt and breeding takes place, these are the issues at hand that needs serious attention,
I know, of a landowner that has actually provided lion with a calming substance to get the hunters (ph and client) out of the field because the follow up client is on the way.
They only discovered this later by Freudian slip.
Now that's horse manure!
It's no secret in SA if you want to make quick money there is no better way to do it than with a lion and it only takes a day or two mostly.
My best always
. Whenever I think of a strategy, it always seems to break down when I get to the economics. Then, it' back to square one.
Marius the error in your assumption is that this is what I call "trucker math"... I hire a lot of trucking and when fuel prices doubled a few years ago, the truckers all doubled their rates with the excuse "fuel doubled!" Well fuel is about 1/3rd of their cost, not 100%Royal, if the registered breeder made $1M per year from selling 100 Lions, he's going to be trying to get as close to $1M for the year, by only selling 20 Lions under the new laws.
I like this exchange of ideas and feel that this whole thread has been turned into a positive one after a rocky start. Thanks Marius and Jaco for beginning the constructive dialogue. I had a thought, and it's just a bit of brainstorming on the economics of lion hunting...so here goes.
Lions are the king of beasts and should be the pinnacle of hunting. A lion hunt doesn't have to be affordable to everyone out there. Now if you banned captive-bred lion hunting out-right or put a very long release period of say 6 months on them it would effectively end captive-bred lion hunting for now. Demand for lion amongst hunters would stay the same but supply of lions would decrease a significant amount. This is because only free-range lion would be huntable and their quota is determined by conservation methods not demand/supply and that quota would stay constant. As a result of the shift in the demand/supply graph, prices on lion would increase substantially. Only a few hunters, maybe would be able to afford a lion trophy. Wild lion would receive much more attention and conservation from governments and the local communities because they would become even more valuable than they already are. Perhaps even more habitat would be set aside for them because of their increased value. Hunting associations and pro-hunting groups could measure this price increase and hopefully the corresponding increase in wild lion numbers and habitat and then could have a measurable conservation benefit directly linked to the hunting of lion. This valuable research is our biggest weapon in the fight to save hunting. It will never convince a anti-hunter because he's an idealist who doesn't listen to reason. But it will convince the non-hunter who hasn't yet formed a strong enough opinion on hunting to choose sides.
Then when this has been attained, the higher lion price would make it financially possible for a lion breeder to have a release period of 6 months or more. The increase in habitat would also contribute to more wild lions in the supply chain. And the supply of lions would again go up and this whole cycle will repeat itself ending with lion prices approximately where they are now. But...with a significant conservation and moral gain.
This would be the free market version of lion hunting and I'm sure there are a lot of real-world problems with this idea, but it's something to consider.
Victor
Marius the error in your assumption is that this is what I call "trucker math"... I hire a lot of trucking and when fuel prices doubled a few years ago, the truckers all doubled their rates with the excuse "fuel doubled!" Well fuel is about 1/3rd of their cost, not 100%His fixed cost stayed the same. As did his labor cost.
Conversely, a lion breeder supplying 20 lions per year instead of 100 will see his variable expense drop to 20% of what it had been... Of course his fixed cost will likely stay about the same, unless he diversifies into other things to help utilize the fixed assets. But if he charges 5x the price, he will be realizing a much greater profit..... Of course if he has to bear the cost of additional carry time, that changes the economics again.
Eina !! = Ouch !! The truth. Never mind what I could add.