PHASA distances itself from Captive-bred Lion Hunting

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Who gives a rat ass what phasa thinks on hunting other then themselves. I have news for all of you phasa backers. To a whole bunch of us hunters you mean nothing on who we hunt with or what you say about what us hunters hunt. Just another group who likes to pat themselves on the back with doing very little to help anyone other then themselves. I pick the places I hunt for a lot of reason and being a phasa member has nothing to do with it. With the choice they have decide to make I look at them now no different then any other of the nuts who want to stop hunting.

The good thing is there is enough and I am betting more who drop out of phasa after the bs they have started to go hunt with in SA. The damage they will cause by being so one side on this battle will bite them in the ass in time. Sa got the game animals back by breeding and selling hunts to us clients. No clients no animals no money see that trail of money.

Noted Billc your tone is also noted. I would advise familiarizing yourself a little better with the current situation, PHASA, and the actuall practice of SA lion hunts in SA, this might give you a bit more back ground, and a broader understanding of the decision involved.

I'm sure no one here truly minds who you hunt with but openly criticizing something you do not have all the true and objective info to is completely off the wall in my opinion..... But that's just me.

My best always

 

[KAROO WILD Safaris]

Who gives a rat ass what phasa thinks on hunting other then themselves. I have news for all of you phasa backers. To a whole bunch of us hunters you mean nothing on who we hunt with or what you say about what us hunters hunt. Just another group who likes to pat themselves on the back with doing very little to help anyone other then themselves. I pick the places I hunt for a lot of reason and being a phasa member has nothing to do with it. With the choice they have decide to make I look at them now no different then any other of the nuts who want to stop hunting.

The good thing is there is enough and I am betting more who drop out of phasa after the bs they have started to go hunt with in SA. The damage they will cause by being so one side on this battle will bite them in the ass in time. Sa got the game animals back by breeding and selling hunts to us clients. No clients no animals no money see that trail of money.

Noted Billc your tone is also noted. I would advise familiarizing yourself a little better with the current situation, PHASA, and the actuall practice of SA lion hunts in SA, this might give you a bit more back ground, and a broader understanding of the decision involved.

I'm sure no one here truly minds who you hunt with but openly criticizing something you do not have all the true and objective info to is completely off the wall in my opinion..... But that's just me.

My best always

+1 your lack of respect for the hunting industry in SA is ridiculous. I doubt you represent the majority of hunters who travel to South Africa from around the world to hunt but you so freely criticize on their behalf the majority of outfitters and PH's who are PHASA members. PHASA isn't some mystical third party, it's an association who guides and pushes for protection of the hunting industry in SA and everyone who works in it. By extension, that includes the local and foreign hunters who support our industry. They made a decision you don't like... find a way to deal with it in a civil manner.

 

[Red Leg]

Who gives a rat ass what phasa thinks on hunting other then themselves. I have news for all of you phasa backers. To a whole bunch of us hunters you mean nothing on who we hunt with or what you say about what us hunters hunt. Just another group who likes to pat themselves on the back with doing very little to help anyone other then themselves. I pick the places I hunt for a lot of reason and being a phasa member has nothing to do with it. With the choice they have decide to make I look at them now no different then any other of the nuts who want to stop hunting.

The good thing is there is enough and I am betting more who drop out of phasa after the bs they have started to go hunt with in SA. The damage they will cause by being so one side on this battle will bite them in the ass in time. Sa got the game animals back by breeding and selling hunts to us clients. No clients no animals no money see that trail of money.

Might want to actually look into that whole PHASA role and membership thing before throwing them out with the trash. Their mission has been and continues to be vital to everyone hunting The RSA - including you.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

+1 your lack of respect for the hunting industry in SA is ridiculous. I doubt you represent the majority of hunters who travel to South Africa from around the world to hunt but you so freely criticize on their behalf the majority of outfitters and PH's who are PHASA members. PHASA isn't some mystical third party, it's an association who guides and pushes for protection of the hunting industry in SA and everyone who works in it. By extension, that includes the local and foreign hunters who support our industry. They made a decision you don't like... find a way to deal with it in a civil manner.

I voted option 2 I am PHASA SO IS EVERY MEMBER BY MEANS OF PROXY OR INDIVIDUAL PERSONAL VOTE.

I am happy with the vote I ask again how can you defend something without moral conviction.

it PHASA IS EVERY professional hunter who chooses to be part of it.

Love u too bud.
My best always

 

[Royal27]

On many marketing floors (SCI, DSC) only PHASA members will be allowed to exhibit I think there is no further explanation required on this.

@Jaco Strauss
So just to confirm - you're saying that DSC and SCI both now have rules that will not allow an exhibitor to have a booth at their respective shows unless that member is not only a DSC/SCI member, but also a PHASA member as well (obviously only for marketing in SA)? I'm surprised that either organization would require third party membership.

Am I missing something ot misunderstanding?

 

[BRICKBURN]

They also require that PH's and Outfitters being represented by an Agent can prove they are licensed.

 

[Wheels]

Who gives a rat ass what phasa thinks on hunting other then themselves. I have news for all of you phasa backers. To a whole bunch of us hunters you mean nothing on who we hunt with or what you say about what us hunters hunt. Just another group who likes to pat themselves on the back with doing very little to help anyone other then themselves. I pick the places I hunt for a lot of reason and being a phasa member has nothing to do with it. With the choice they have decide to make I look at them now no different then any other of the nuts who want to stop hunting.

The good thing is there is enough and I am betting more who drop out of phasa after the bs they have started to go hunt with in SA. The damage they will cause by being so one side on this battle will bite them in the ass in time. Sa got the game animals back by breeding and selling hunts to us clients. No clients no animals no money see that trail of money.

Bill,

I'm not trying to start an argument but don't you represent a PHASA member?

How do you reconcile representing a PHASA member while criticizing PHASA the organization the way you have?

In your second paragraph you talk about outfitters dropping out of PHASA. Are you insinuating that Pieter is dropping out of PHASA?

 

[billc]

Bill,

I'm not trying to start an argument but don't you represent a PHASA member?

How do you reconcile representing a PHASA member while criticizing PHASA the organization the way you have?

In your second paragraph you talk about outfitters dropping out of PHASA. Are you insinuating that Pieter is dropping out of PHASA?

Yes pieter is a member but hoping not for long. He is not happy with them selling out on the lion. My comment are mine and not pieters but he is not the least bit happy.

Jaco I hear you that they may do some good but lets be real about it hunting would still go on with out them or with them. Its just another group who does what is best for them. May do some good but just try do do what will make them money and I am not a big fan of any group that is trying to force people to join there group so others can run a business.What can they do when they find out someone breaks the law or screws some client. Oh they throw them out of phasa and then what. Does that guys stay in business or do they have the power to shut them down.

To say the cecil mess has nothing to do with this vote at all or some anti movie is kidding yourself. Maybe you were not effect by it but must caved because of this happening.

Victor I have respect for the people who earn it. I can say my stance on the matter just like you can. Dont pretend to know me or judge me in anyway because again you have no idea. I dont claim to speak for all hunters but news flash to all you phasa guys must hunters have no idea who or what you do. The groups I book never ask or bring up phasa but feel free to keep telling yourself your important if it makes you feel better.

 

[Hank2211]

I have nothing against PHASA and in fact think it, and organizations like it, are useful and do a lot of good.

But in this case I think PHASA is being a bit naive. Does anyone think, for a minute, that if so-called canned lion hunting is banned that the antis will go away? Hardly! They will move on to the next target, which I can guarantee you will eventually include raising any animals for hunting purposes.

Many people have jumped on the Cecil and captive-bred lion hunting because it's an easy way to get people involved in the cause - and the cause - make no mistake about it - is the eventual banning of all hunting and ultimately, the raising of animals for food. Of course, if you say that, you won't get the support you want at the front end, but that's the goal.

So one perspective is that the longer we keep captive-bred lion hunting as a target, the better off we all are - since the antis won't move on to another target until this one is done.

Personally, I do not know of a single hunter who has decided not to visit South Africa because of this issue or the breeding of colour variants. And to be clear, I really don't have a problem with the former if done correctly, and I do have a problem with the latter. But I will continue to hunt South Africa.

So a suggestion for PHASA - set some realistic ground rules around captive-bred lion hunting, and get the government on-side with the enforcement of those rules. That would be useful.

 

[Royal27]

They also require that PH's and Outfitters being represented by an Agent can prove they are licensed.

That I get. Just surprised that they would require membership in another organization. Like if they required anyone marketing a duck hunt in NA to be a member of DU, or an elk hunt to be a member of RMEF, or to be a member of DSC in order to show at SCI for that matter.

I'm nor arguing, just surprised and looking for confirmation.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I have nothing against PHASA and in fact think it, and organizations like it, are useful and do a lot of good.

But in this case I think PHASA is being a bit naive. Does anyone think, for a minute, that if so-called canned lion hunting is banned that the antis will go away? Hardly! They will move on to the next target, which I can guarantee you will eventually include raising any animals for hunting purposes.

Many people have jumped on the Cecil and captive-bred lion hunting because it's an easy way to get people involved in the cause - and the cause - make no mistake about it - is the eventual banning of all hunting and ultimately, the raising of animals for food. Of course, if you say that, you won't get the support you want at the front end, but that's the goal.

So one perspective is that the longer we keep captive-bred lion hunting as a target, the better off we all are - since the antis won't move on to another target until this one is done.

Personally, I do not know of a single hunter who has decided not to visit South Africa because of this issue or the breeding of colour variants. And to be clear, I really don't have a problem with the former if done correctly, and I do have a problem with the latter. But I will continue to hunt South Africa.

So a suggestion for PHASA - set some realistic ground rules around captive-bred lion hunting, and get the government on-side with the enforcement of those rules. That would be useful.

1.)Hank our industry has been the influenced badly by color variant breeding and lion hunting, I have felt and seen this degrade over the last lets call it 8 years, I get it on show floors especially on DSC AND SCI.

2.)it's not about the anti guys it about PHASA's (lion task team) having worked with SAPA over the last two years no head way has been made, the ball has firmly been placed in SAPA's court to clean they're house.

3.)we all voted, I guess you live and learn, I'm no SAMPEO fan but having shot around 80 of these cats in SA and my fair share of wild lion, I'm saying again how can I defend something with moral conviction, especially under the current 96 hour release law in north west, current breeding practices, and ranch operations of in shoot and bugger off next client's on the way.....
Who here has hunted more than 3 days for they're cat?

I'm sorry I prefer better than that and so do my clients, in the lion industry in SA whether you are aware of it or not you are a very small fish in a big pond.
I don't care how exciting it is, how aggressive they are, I know all of this first hand, the reality stands without contestation.
It simply is not up to par.
I believe it is a step in the right direction.
We have been commended by NAPHA, APHA, WSF and many other bodies, maybe it's time we change our perspective and look at this with a bit of objectivity.

My best always

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

@Jaco Strauss
So just to confirm - you're saying that DSC and SCI both now have rules that will not allow an exhibitor to have a booth at their respective shows unless that member is not only a DSC/SCI member, but also a PHASA member as well (obviously only for marketing in SA)? I'm surprised that either organization would require third party membership.

Am I missing something ot misunderstanding?

Not at all Royal you're not missing anything, same with Zim operations.
My best always

 

[BRICKBURN]

That I get. Just surprised that they would require membership in another organization. .....

Many organizations/companies require (eg.) bidders/vendors to be members in good standing of their Professional Association.

 

[KAROO WILD Safaris]

1.)Hank our industry has been the influenced badly by color variant breeding and lion hunting, I have felt and seen this degrade over the last lets call it 8 years, I get it on show floors especially on DSC AND SCI.

2.)it's not about the anti guys it about PHASA's (lion task team) having worked with SAPA over the last two years no head way has been made, the ball has firmly been placed in SAPA's court to clean they're house.

3.)we all voted, I guess you live and learn, I'm no SAMPEO fan but having shot around 80 of these cats in SA and my fair share of wild lion, I'm saying again how can I defrnd something with moral conviction, especially under the current 96 hour release law in north west, current breeding practices, and ranch operations of in shoot and bugger off next client's on the way.....
Who here has hinted more than 3 days for they're cat?

I'm sorry I prefer better than that and so do my clients, in the lion industry in SA whether you are aware of it or not you are a very small fish in a big pond.
I don't cate hoe exciting it is how aggressive they are I know all of this first hand, the reality stands without contestation.
It simply is not up to par.
I believe it is a step in the right direction.
We have been commended by NAPHA, APHA, WSF and many other bodies, maybe it's time we change our perspective and look at this with a bit of objectivity.

My best always

Just to expand on what Jaco said. I didn't attend the meeting but I have in my hand a copy of the PHASA newsletter with the draft minutes of the AGM held on 19 November 2014 in Port Alfred. The issue of captive bred lions and association with the South African Predators Association was heavily debated in that meeting."Cecil"was hunted on 1 July 2015. This is just to show that this wasn't a knee jerk reaction to Cecil and has been a thorn in the conscience of PHASA since the late 1990's when these type of hunts started happening and Carte Blanche (60 minutes type of program) exposed them. Outfitters and PH's had no credibility then and since then through the association of PHASA we managed to build up credibility to the point where the industry is almost self-regulated. That's a healthy situation to be in when your government doesn't necessarily have the best interests of everyone at heart.

I've only been a member of PHASA for a short time but recognize the outstanding work they've done over they years.

BillC, you have it wrong. It makes no difference to me whether hunters care or recognize that I'm a member of PHASA. It's also not essential that they recognize the work that PHASA does. It's not a marketing association or a feather in my cap that I'm a member, again it's an association that represents the industry over here. Not every action we do is about getting more hunters to book with us or get a competitive edge over others like you imply it is. If I ever had the privilege of hunting in the US, I wouldn't necessarily be aware of the local hunting associations. But I think I would respect them and give a "rat's ass" about what the work they've done to promote hunting in the US. I wouldn't necessarily agree with everything that they did but I would recognize that some of them rely on the industry to feed their families, put clothes on their backs etc and any decision they took wouldn't be taken lightly.

 

[peras]

Whether one likes the decision or not it was democratic. I was not there but give a proxy to another member to vote on my behalf. Unfortunately, the house had to be cleaned up. I just hope that captivebred hunting will continue after the industry has been cleaned otherwise a precedant case will have been created which will make it difficult to defend a lot of other hunting practices.

 

[Red Leg]

Bill,

I'm not trying to start an argument but don't you represent a PHASA member?

How do you reconcile representing a PHASA member while criticizing PHASA the organization the way you have?

In your second paragraph you talk about outfitters dropping out of PHASA. Are you insinuating that Pieter is dropping out of PHASA?

If I may offer some advice Bill. You apparently represent an outfitter here in the States. I am headed back to Africa in '17. Not sure yet with whom I will make that commitment. You can rest assured the outfitter you represent will not be in on the short list. This is a pretty good forum. The vast majority of folks are polite, even when they disagree completely with the drift of the discussion. Your not "giving a rat's ass" is not what I would consider a ringing endorsement of the type of person or enterprise where I would comfortably trust a very large investment. Secondly, I am a great believer in the shooting sports attempting to police themselves. Certainly, it is a better world than one where hunters will "buy" their way to hunting opportunities regardless of local and professional concerns. Sort of makes me wonder what sort of situation I might be setting myself up to experience should I book with the company you represent. Finally, if you are going to represent a business (and I have had dozens of folks represent mine over the last 12 years), may I suggest you spend a little time on the whole grammar and communications thing. If I, or someone like me, intends to invest in a hunt, the clarity and professionalism of that dialogue, whether in writing or verbally, is a great confidence builder - or the opposite. I wish you the very best.

 

[peras]

If I may offer some advice Bill. You apparently represent an outfitter here in the States. I am headed back to Africa in '17. Not sure yet with whom I will make that commitment. You can rest assured the outfitter you represent will not be in on the short list. This is a pretty good forum. The vast majority of folks are polite, even when they disagree completely with the drift of the discussion. Your not "giving a rat's ass" is not what I would consider a ringing endorsement of the type of person or enterprise where I would comfortably trust a very large investment. Secondly, I am a great believer in the shooting sports attempting to police themselves. Certainly, it is a better world than one where hunters will "buy" their way to hunting opportunities regardless of local and professional concerns. Sort of makes me wonder what sort of situation I might be setting myself up to experience should I book with the company you represent. Finally, if you are going to represent a business (and I have had dozens of folks represent mine over the last 12 years), may I suggest you spend a little time on the whole grammar and communications thing. If I, or someone like me, intends to invest in a hunt, the clarity and professionalism of that dialogue, whether in writing or verbally, is a great confidence builder - or the opposite. I wish you the very best.

Red Leg I understand your point of view and is in agreeance. However I want to emphasise that that is Bill's personal view.
I for one believe that PHASA is much needed and even though members of any association will sometimes disagree with certain decisions of such association there is no need to distance one from them.
Thank you for your input on the matter I take it to heart.

 

[petrusg]

Email from JAGD & HUND 2016

JAGD & HUND 2016, Europe’s largest hunting exhibition is getting closer and you will participate as an exhibitor. Jointly with you, we look forward to this event which will certainly be a success again.

In our capacity as international exhibition organiser, we also regard it as our task to point out to you specific ethical views on certain hunting topics. Today, for example, we write to you in connection with Captive Bred Lions and Artificial Breeding – of course only in the event that these topics concern you. Some sensitivity has recently developed among the German public when it comes to certain hunting practices where animals are bred for the purpose of being shot.

Regardless of the views on such topics in your home country, we want to draw your attention to the fact that trips abroad, during which such methods are used, result in protests and negative media reporting in Germany. We therefore ask you in your own interest to refrain from offering such ethically questionable trips at JAGD & HUND. In our capacity as exhibition organiser, we also appreciate a self-restraint to this effect for 2016. As a matter of precaution, we point out to you that we intend to have an amendment of the Exhibition Terms & Conditions under this aspect for the following years legally checked.

The initially voluntary self-restraint is also in the interest of the vendors concerned and their countries of origin because it is the precondition for a predominantly non-hunting society to be prepared to continue to at least accept sustainable hunting in the future.

We hope for a JAGD & HUND 2016 exhibition that focuses on a responsible, professional exchange of information on hunting topics. We want to offer you as an exhibitor the best possible general conditions and a smooth,undisturbed exhibition. Feel welcome at JAGD & HUND 2016!

 

[Silence]

Oh yes, I´m from Germany and the people here are going nuts about African animals being shot. Many people do not even accept the hunting in Germany, which is mostly for meat or because of ecological reasons.
But it is totaly OK to go fishing with the kids to a pond where the fish are released into and there is more fish than water.

 

[Roy Sparks]

Jaco,
Whether you, me or Joe Soap support captive bred lion hunting or not, don't you feel that the stance taken by a big organization such as PHASA, only lends support to making the decision easier for USFWS to close all Lion hunting?
This decision was short sighted from PHASA, and I feel should the vote happen again, I think the result might be different. Their decision, might ultimately play a big role in closing down the hunting of a species in the entire Africa.

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure that I want to support or have anything to do with an organization who gives in to "social media" pressure.

KMG I like your thinking although I do not think captive bred hunting is good anywhere. However that type of conduct from PHASA should come as no supprise.

What does " distance themselves " translate ?? It means piss all but PHASA sitting on the fence - they are good at that ! There is absolutely no moral or upstanding value to their statement.

For now to look good they'll only commit to distance themselves but should public opinion change in the interim they'll dive right back into it. Where is a written public statement from PHASA laying out their convictions concerning canned hunting. To say that a member will be brought in for a disciplinary hearing just goes to show they actually have no clear " ruling ".Who really wants to belong to an organisation like that.

South African game industry in its entirety with all the accolades it receives concerning conservation had better take a sharp look into its future. Never mind canned lions there's a bunch of devilish practices going on from game breeding , capture , selling of live game through to hunting.

Most of us are well aware of what is going on but greed overrides all moral obligation in this industry - we should be damned ashamed of ourselves for allowing these practices to continue never mind support them by participating.

As for " CANNED " - well hell there's more than just " Koo " and " All Gold " lions being canned in South Africa.

And gentleman it does not have to be like that - see where its going , if it continues all those fancy million $$$ animals advertised on auction are at the very most going to revert back to meat value only at SA Rands per kilogram !!

KMG - I am not aiming this at you personally just chose to reply on your remark and elaborate a bit more. However I have not been very explicit because I am ashamed at what I know is happening and what I could actually very truthfully share.