PHASA distances itself from Captive-bred Lion Hunting

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

KMG I like your thinking although I do not think captive bred hunting is good anywhere. However that type of conduct from PHASA should come as no supprise.

What does " distance themselves " translate ?? It means piss all but PHASA sitting on the fence - they are good at that ! There is absolutely no moral or upstanding value to their statement.

For now to look good they'll only commit to distance themselves but should public opinion change in the interim they'll dive right back into it. Where is a written public statement from PHASA laying out their convictions concerning canned hunting. To say that a member will be brought in for a disciplinary hearing just goes to show they actually have no clear " ruling ".Who really wants to belong to an organisation like that.

South African game industry in its entirety with all the accolades it receives concerning conservation had better take a sharp look into its future. Never mind canned lions there's a bunch of devilish practices going on from game breeding , capture , selling of live game through to hunting.

Most of us are well aware of what is going on but greed overrides all moral obligation in this industry - we should be damned ashamed of ourselves for allowing these practices to continue never mind support them by participating.

As for " CANNED " - well hell there's more than just " Koo " and " All Gold " lions being canned in South Africa.

And gentleman it does not have to be like that - see where its going , if it continues all those fancy million $$$ animals advertised on auction are at the very most going to revert back to meat value only at SA Rands per kilogram !!

KMG - I am not aiming this at you personally just chose to reply on your remark and elaborate a bit more. However I have not been very explicit because I am ashamed at what I know is happening and what I could actually very truthfully share.

Roy,
Thanks for you comments. Sometimes it is difficult to express your opinion from a keyboard and get the correct point across. Some are better at it than others. Sometimes the correct way of getting the point across only comes later.

What I am unhappy about, is what the effects of this decision will have down the road for hunting as a whole. Once again, let's forget about the fact that this topic is only about Captive Bred Lions for the sake of getting my point across. If this decision was taken over the hunting of porcupines, I would still have the same feelings. Why? Because we've given an inch, and "they" now see an opportunity to take mile.
What I have written in the posts above, should not be looked upon regarding only the captive bred lion topic and whether I support it or not. Do I like it? No. They want to shut ALL lion hunting down. What will be next?
When USWFS meets regarding closing down ALL Lion imports into the USA, they are going to look for support from organizations to motivate their decision. They are going look at organizations like PHASA, NAPHA, ZPHGA and the decisions that they have made in order to substantiate their own decision. Can stricter methods be put into place to control the Captive bred Lion industry. Certainly.

Just because we don't agree with something, it is not our place to enforce that opinion down on others. We don't have to support the Captive Breeding of Lions. Denounce it. I don't care. Your business will carry on, because you can still denounce it to all your own clients all you want. I especially don't care denouncing anything regarding hunting to an anti. As a matter of fact, I'll say I support something, even though I don't, just to piss on their battery.
This vote could not have come at a worse time, because it has driven a wedge between hunters. Had it not, this thread would not be alive.
The fact that hunters are fighting among ourselves, have pissed me off the most. There is not a time more than now, that we needed to stand together.
Now we have operators denouncing this, not supporting that. Yes, maybe Captive bred Lions has nothing to do with hunting, but the decision that was made on that, WILL ultimately have an effect on matters that do affect hunting and then you, me, Jaco Strauss and every other operator does get affected.
Something that could have been avoided, with just a slightly better game plan.

 

[spike.t]

Red Leg I understand your point of view and is in agreeance. However I want to emphasise that that is Bill's personal view.
I for one believe that PHASA is much needed and even though members of any association will sometimes disagree with certain decisions of such association there is no need to distance one from them.
Thank you for your input on the matter I take it to heart.

Yes pieter is a member but hoping not for long. He is not happy with them selling out on the lion. My comment are mine and not pieters but he is not the least bit happy.

hi pieter seems like you arent quitting PHASA from your above statement, so how does it work with bill wanting you to leave?

 

[Royal27]

Not at all Royal you're not missing anything, same with Zim operations.
My best always

Many organizations/companies require (eg.) bidders/vendors to be members in good standing of their Professional Association.

Interesting, I didn't realize this. The more I think about it the less it surprises me.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Oh yes, I´m from Germany and the people here are going nuts about African animals being shot. Many people do not even accept the hunting in Germany, which is mostly for meat or because of ecological reasons.
But it is totaly OK to go fishing with the kids to a pond where the fish are released into and there is more fish than water.

or eating Schnitzel made from critters raised in a crowded pen.

 

[BRICKBURN]

..............

What does " distance themselves " translate ?? It means piss all but PHASA sitting on the fence - they are good at that ! There is absolutely no moral or upstanding value to their statement.
......................

Roy, going after PHASA for the wording of a News release is a little off VS the policies / positions. I get that it sounds limp.

Fairly clear. PHASA does not support Canned Lion hunting. Captive Bred within the law and also states they will review policy on an ongoing basis.

It does beg the question: What is "canned"? Is this fence sitting.

PHASA can only discipline members, just like any professional association. If the offender quits the association the proceeding is over. There is no legal sanction available to PHASA.

PHASA Policy / Position Statement
http://phasa.co.za/about-phasa/policies-positions.html

Our policies and positions are dynamic and are developing constantly. We encourage our members to keep themselves abreast of these developments. Policies and positions are debated and formulated at our AGM, while updates are published in all our communications.

Attend the AGM and be part of the decision-making process!

PHASA policy on hunting (adopted at the PHASA AGM on 17 November 2010)
• PHASA supports the responsible hunting of all species in a sustainable, extensive wildlife system that can fend for themselves, provided that such species are hunted according to the laws of the land and the PHASA Code of Conduct.


PHASA position on the hunting of lions (adopted at the PHASA AGM on 21 November 2013)
• PHASA strongly opposes any form of ‘canned’ hunting and will discipline any of its members who participate in such activity.
• PHASA will continue to work with government and law enforcement agencies, as it has done in the past, to eradicate this practice.
• PHASA concurs with the South African government’s position that the breeding of lions in captivity does not threaten our wild lion populations or biodiversity in conservation and that the hunting of such lions is sustainable.
• PHASA acknowledges that the hunting of captive-bred lions will, for the foreseeable future, remain part of the South African hunting industry. PHASA believes that it is imperative that such hunting be undertaken in a responsible manner and that such hunts comply at all times with nature conservation laws, and conform to the PHASA Code of Conduct and other policies.
• Accordingly, PHASA accepts, as the MINIMUM norms for such hunting by its members, the Norms and Standards, as set out in the ‘POLICY DOCUMENT: Norms and Standards for Hunting Ranch Lions in South Africa’, as adopted by the South African Predator Association (SAPA) at its AGM, on 16 November 2013.
• PHASA views the SAPA norms as a stepping-stone to clean up the captive-bred lion hunting industry. PHASA does not believe that those norms are the final word on the hunting of lions.
• PHASA will always strongly advise its members to set the standards for hunting even higher. In this regard, PHASA is in the process of further dialogue with SAPA.
• PHASA believes that the hunting of captive-bred lions MUST result in direct funding for conservation and research programmes, in respect of wild lions. Furthermore, PHASA believes that such hunting MUST contribute to social upliftment projects, especially in our poorer rural communities. PHASA has, through the Fund, a proud and phenomenal history in these fields and will use its expertise to make a meaningful contribution. PHASA is in the process of discussing such funding with SAPA and is also looking at such projects on its own.
• PHASA welcomes working with all stakeholders to develop a coherent approach to the long-term future of our wildlife and natural areas.
• PHASA is a dynamic association that continues to monitor developments. PHASA will do the same with the lion hunting industry and, from time to time, review its position.
Extract – complete position paper available from the PHASA office or website.

 

[BRICKBURN]

The fact that hunters are fighting among ourselves, have pissed me off the most. There is not a time more than now, that we needed to stand together. .............

I understand the political motivation to present a "united front", but we are a minority and need to be mindful of that reality.
I am not concerned about the Anti's, a small vociferous group of all or nothing opponents. I am concerned about the vast majority that get to vote who find particular hunting practices offensive, which may have been brought to their attention by the opponents to hunting. In a democracy that majority WILL impose their ideas on others (Us). We deny that to our own peril.

Just because we don't agree with something, it is not our place to enforce that opinion down on others.

...........

............
What I am unhappy about, is what the effects of this decision will have down the road for hunting as a whole. ...............

What others appear to be unhappy about is the decision to do nothing and what that inaction's effect will be on ALL hunting.

SAPA managed to bully the RSA government into some pretty minimal standards for captive bred hunting through legal action. Now look where we are!

.......... 2.) it's not about the anti guys it about PHASA's (lion task team) having worked with SAPA over the last two years no head way has been made, the ball has firmly been placed in SAPA's court to clean they're house. ........

.............. the decision that was made on that, WILL ultimately have an effect on matters that do affect hunting and then you, me, Jaco Strauss and every other operator does get affected.
Something that could have been avoided, with just a slightly better game plan.

I agree that WE need a better game plan.

Anyone have some suggestions?

 

[LivingTheDream]

Oh yes, I´m from Germany and the people here are going nuts about African animals being shot. Many people do not even accept the hunting in Germany, which is mostly for meat or because of ecological reasons.
But it is totaly OK to go fishing with the kids to a pond where the fish are released into and there is more fish than water.

Lol, I know so many that won't fish a stream or pond unless the fish are released. In Virginia they actually post the schedule on their website. No one seems to care about fish.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Lol, I know so many that won't fish a stream or pond unless the fish are released. In Virginia they actually post the schedule on their website. No one seems to care about fish.

They don't have little brown eyes.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Brick, this is where I have to say I drop the ball as I don't have any better suggestions. I do like the industry policing itself, and think it is necessary. In my line of work there have been things that have been legal but went against my own morals and so I didn't do it.

The problem I see and I understand this might not be the case but it appears to outsiders, fence sitters and even those other hunters that don't hunt Africa that this based on the emotional outcry of anti's. What is bad is we look weak with in fighting, and instead need to focus on educating those on the outside. My fear is once they get lions, they will say buffalo were meant to migrate in herds across the savannah, and show a couple next to a fence and go this is wrong. And then we have this same argument with buffalo, then Sable, then whatever. I wish I had an answer that shut the anti's up and worked for all outfitters and PHs however I would probably be president of SCI.

I know that we all have an opinion and many of us hunt dangerous game, so it is not in our nature to back down, we don't mind a fight and this is where it gets so passionate. Hopefully, I am wrong and this practice will continue, we can find a definitive conservation based argument for the hunting of captive breed animals, but like climbing a mountain each step we take back it will require twice the effort to get back to where we were.

 

[LivingTheDream]

They don't have little brown eyes.

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Why did you post that picture, I was going to go deer hunting today but now I just don't know, I might just have an all organic grown salad instead.

Oh wait I still have a buck tag, so never mind, tree stand sitting for me.

 

[Royal27]

Fish are people too....

 

[Wheels]

I am not concerned about the Anti's, a small vociferous group of all or nothing opponents. I am concerned about the vast majority that get to vote who find particular hunting practices offensive, which may have been brought to their attention by the opponents to hunting. In a democracy that majority WILL impose their ideas on others (Us). We deny that to our own peril.

Spot on!

Over my life I have not cared what the anti's said and just blown them off. That view point has changed in the last few years. Not because I care or respect their opinion but due to the influence they have on the general public.

North America and Europe represent the vast majority of international hunters to Africa. We live in republics and the majority can dictate expectations to the minority. Meat hunting is viewed as acceptable in these countries. Trophy hunting has slipped quickly and far in the average voters eyes. We need to push that the trophies are meat to the locals and also push the conservation side of hunting. ie: The positive side of wildlife conservation in a Namibia and RSA in the last 40 years verses the negative side of a Kenya in that same time frame.

Anyone have some suggestions?

The hunting community has not had an advocate.

IMHO, SCI has forfeited and abandoned their position of leadership in this area.

DSC seems to have good leadership and to be making strides. Their problem is they are still a relatively small organization.

NRA is starting to back hunting like they have backed gun ownership. You will start to see pro hunting information coming out of the NRA after the first of the year.

We need to support those organizations that support us!

 

[BRICKBURN]

Fish are people too....

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I can see where you are coming from.

 

[Royal27]

I can see where you are coming from.

View attachment 51968

Now see, this is what this forum is all about. People like Brickburn and I having differing opinions, but listening to each other and finding common ground.

 

[Wheels]

Now see, this is what this forum is all about. People like Brickburn and I having differing opinions, but listening to each other and finding common ground.

Am I detecting innuendo on top of insinuation here.

 

[Royal27]

Am I detecting innuendo on top of insinuation here.

Your observation has been duly noted Wheels.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Am I detecting innuendo on top of insinuation here.

Would the result of that be insinuendo?

 

[Wheels]

Would the result of that be insinuendo?

Thought you made up a word there. Then thought I had better look it up first. It is a real word. Remind me not to play scrabble with you Phil.

insinuendo
A combination of the words "innuendo" and "insinuation"

Most commonly used in a sexual reference.
When a comment or joke can be taken sexually, or as a sexual innuendo.

"That's what she said..."
"Stop with the insinuendos!"

An example of an insinuendo:

"Ooh! Do me next!"



I'm to slow to catch your double entendres, or is it a triple. Better hang it up before I show all of my ignorance.

By the way I have no clue what I am saying when I use big words. When Brickburn uses them he seems so intelligent. I just want to be like Brickburn.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Thought you made up a word there. Then thought I had better look it up first. It is a real word. Remind me not to play scrabble with you Phil.

insinuendo
A combination of the words "innuendo" and "insinuation"

Most commonly used in a sexual reference.
When a comment or joke can be taken sexually, or as a sexual innuendo.

"That's what she said..."
"Stop with the insinuendos!"

An example of an insinuendo:

"Ooh! Do me next!"



I'm to slow to catch your double entendres, or is it a triple. Better hang it up before I show all of my ignorance.

By the way I have no clue what I am saying when I use big words. When Brickburn uses them he seems so intelligent. I just want to be like Brickburn.

Talk about a blind squirrel finding a nut.....I thought I was making up a word too!

Be like Wayne........you better get started working on your accent there eh?

 

[BRICKBURN]

..........
Be like Wayne........you better get started working on your accent there eh?

.............
By the way I have no clue what I am saying when I use big words. When Brickburn uses them he seems so intelligent. I just want to be like Brickburn.

Ok, the pair of you Muppets. FOCUS!