Is this SAKO 85 Control Round Feed

[baxterb]

is there a point where the round is loose in the action, where if you pulled the bolt back you could dump the round out? if so, it's not CRF. if the round is being controlled (held) by the magazine OR the bolt during feeding, it is CRF - meaning it is controlled by one or the other at all times.

 

[baxterb]

I would add that an action cannot be CRF if the case head does not directly contact the bolt face on feeding, sliding the rim up under the extractor. If there is a full-circle around a recessed bolt face, the round cannot slide under the extractor, thus being controlled. It is only controlled after chambering as mentioned above.

 

[375Fox]

I’d like to see where the ejection problem occurs? What happens? I’m not ripping the bolt back and have never needed to in the field during a follow up shot… So, it’s hard to get an idea of what the ejection problem is or looks like.

I’ll see if I can make a decent video to show you. I turned scope on my 375 because of it but no issues on 300 win. It happens operating the bolt slow or fast with 375. People will say it happens when you don’t operate the bolt fast enough but that’s not true. With scope turned it will throw cartridge a couple feet without being turned and working the bolt fast it will fall out most of the time but the mark was clear to see on the scope turret on a 1.5-5 Leupold.

 

[375Fox]

I’d like to see where the ejection problem occurs? What happens? I’m not ripping the bolt back and have never needed to in the field during a follow up shot… So, it’s hard to get an idea of what the ejection problem is or looks like.

So I never really dug into it too far until now, but I noticed in your video I thought the ejection was very horizontal. In the videos I just took it’s clear my 300 has a much more horizontal ejection than my 375 which would explain why my 300 has no scope issues when my 375 did without the scope turned.

 

[CoElkHunter]

For the the new Sako 90 that will soon be released, Sako made a quite a change to the action....the new Model 90 is now a push feed. Below is a picture of the Model 90 bolt face and you can see a solid raised rim around the bolt face like a Remington 700 and the presence of plunger ejectors...both of which would prevent a cartridge rim from sliding up the bolt face and under the claw extractor like a Model 85.

View attachment 552647

Wow! Two plungers.

 

[colorado]

Well whether it is or not, from what I've heard Sako 85s are fine rifles. I have a CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery that I love and a BDL in 270 Win that I've killed so much game with over decades including 9 bears many elk and deer that I would trust my life with as well. The BDL has never malfunctioned, still shoots nickel sized groups at 100 yards. An 150g Partition at 3000 fps is nothing to be trifled with.

Best Regards All,

 

[JD Noblin]

Well whether it is or not, from what I've heard Sako 85s are fine rifles. I have a CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery that I love and a BDL in 270 Win that I've killed so much game with over decades including 9 bears many elk and deer that I would trust my life with as well. The BDL has never malfunctioned, still shoots nickel sized groups at 100 yards. An 150g Partition at 3000 fps is nothing to be trifled with.

Best Regards All,

Colorado, have you written any stories on AH about your CZ 500 in 500 Jeffery and your hunts with it? I, and I bet others too, would love to hear more about your 500J and game taken with it. I bet its a fantastic rifle!

 

[fourfive8]

But all in all, it as well may be pointless.
The problem that can be identified, and not always - is alleged problem of ejection of casing under strange angle, hits the scope, gets back to action and can cause jams? This has been reported in larger calibers.
Feeding was never an issue.
Is this true or false, I have no idea

True. Not alleged problem but a real one. I believe one of the forum members here had that very issue with a Sako. Because of the geometry between the ejector and extractor, a fired case can eject at too high an angle and hit the scope's right side turret cap. I've even had it happen with a Win 70 CRF. It is very common with Rem 700s that have had a Sako style or M16 style extractor added. On the two lug Remington the new extractor is added against the edge of the lug thus the geometry is changed between ejector and extractor. So during ejection the case is thrown out at a higher angle. If the ejected case only hits the turret cap, and not part of the mount or scope body, the simple solution is to rotate scope 90' left. Of course this only works with scopes having two adjustment turrets. And if left handed action, then there are no turrets on left side of two turret scope so no issue. Also this solution obviously won't work with the common and trendy three turret scopes

I only have simple crosshair reticle, two turret scopes on my hunting rifles and they are all mounted rotated 90' left. Plus ther is an added benefit of getting the turret out of the way for hasty loading.

 

[CoElkHunter]

True. Not alleged problem but a real one. I believe one of the forum members here had that very issue with a Sako. Because of the geometry between the ejector and extractor, a fired case can eject at too high an angle and hit the scope's right side turret cap. I've even had it happen with a Win 70 CRF. It is very common with Rem 700s that have had a Sako style or M16 style extractor added. On the two lug Remington the new extractor is added against the edge of the lug thus the geometry is changed between ejector and extractor. So during ejection the case is thrown out at a higher angle. If the ejected case only hits the turret cap, and not part of the mount or scope body, the simple solution is to rotate scope 90' left. Of course this only works with scopes having two adjustment turrets. And if left handed action, then there are no turrets on left side of two turret scope so no issue. Also this solution obviously won't work with the common and trendy three turret scopes

I only have simple crosshair reticle, two turret scopes on my hunting rifles and they are all mounted rotated 90' left. Plus ther is an added benefit of getting the turret out of the way for hasty loading.
View attachment 552848

What's the difference between a Sako and M16 extractors? I'm only asking because I have a Rem 700 SPS .300WM and I thought one or the other may be an improvement, although I've NEVER had an extraction issue with it. Thanks!

 

[sestoppelman]

Even some Steyr models are CRF. My M72 is CRF. Got into a bit of a debate here once with a gent over the Ruger 77 Mark 1 rifle which has the long extractor, but a button ejector and is NOT CRF. Later Rugers were and are, some a combination.
As described so well above, the real test is pushing a round into the chamber but NOT turning down the handle. Just in and back.
If it comes back its CRF, if it lays in there like big seegar, its not.

 

[fourfive8]

What's the difference between a Sako and M16 extractors? I'm only asking because I have a Rem 700 SPS .300WM and I thought one or the other may be an improvement, although I've NEVER had an extraction issue with it. Thanks!

Basically the same and both attach to the same place adjacent to the lug. Only slight differences in the way they attach to the bolt body. Most think the M16 style is slightly more secure because of the cross pin design. Both the Sako style and the M16 style extractors are considered more positive than the nub/clip design of the original 700. The 700s I've handled that have had the extraction conversion done seem very positive and robust for extraction and ejection with the only issue being the geometry between the ejector and the extractor where, in some of the modified 700s, cases are ejected at a higher angle that may hit the right side scope turret. I had a 721 with the Sako/M16 style extractor eject at a very high angle after the modification. The simple solution was rotating the scope 90' left, clearing the turret out of the way.

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

What's the difference between a Sako and M16 extractors? I'm only asking because I have a Rem 700 SPS .300WM and I thought one or the other may be an improvement, although I've NEVER had an extraction issue with it. Thanks!

M-16 extractor on my Custom 300 RUM, which I believe is built on Rem 700…

SAKO 85 L extractor:

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

Basically the same and both attach to the same place adjacent to the lug. Only slight differences in the way they attach to the bolt body. Most think the M16 style is slightly more secure because of the cross pin design. Both the Sako style and the M16 style extractors are considered more positive than the nub/clip design of the original 700. The 700s I've handled that have had the extraction conversion done seem very positive and robust for extraction and ejection with the only issue being the geometry between the ejector and the extractor where, in some of the modified 700s, cases are ejected at a higher angle that may hit the right side scope turret. I had a 721 with the Sako/M16 style extractor eject at a very high angle after the modification. The simple solution was rotating the scope 90' left, clearing the turret out of the way.

On my SAKO 85 in .375 H&H, I have a Scope with 3 turrets with no ejection issues. In an effort to help others better understand or even dispel some of the issues concerning ejection problems, I’ve posted a couple videos and my experience.

Did I just get lucky? Or is there a geometric shift or change that lends itself to a different ejection angle on a left hand SAKO 85?

 

[IvW]

I never used a left hand rifle let alone a Sako.
I would not use a Sako 85 action for a DG rifle build, especially 458 Lott

Now some turn scopes to try and fix a problem on the action? Why? I could not as I use German nr.4 reticle....

Sako 85 is semi CRF....

The true benefit of a Mauser type crf action is not only the crf part but also the extraction part, with a massive extractor and setup which also provides camming power to ensure reliable extraction.
This is very important for straight wall cases such as the Lott.

I rely on the Mauser system of the ZKK for my dg rifles, never had issues or the need to rotate scopes.....

 

[mark-hunter]

I would add that an action cannot be CRF if the case head does not directly contact the bolt face on feeding, sliding the rim up under the extractor. If there is a full-circle around a recessed bolt face, the round cannot slide under the extractor, thus being controlled. It is only controlled after chambering as mentioned above.

An excellent definition of CRF and non CRF!

 

[CoElkHunter]

Factory Browning A Bolt on left (silver) and factory Remington 700. I guess I never looked at the bolts that closely before, but the “blade” extractor inside the bolt body rim of the Remington is tiny. The Browning’s extractor looks more substantial and the three rings on the bolt head allow for a 60 degree bolt throw. Much different bolt designs than my CZ 550s or Interarms Whitworths, but for hunting big game here that's what I've used forever.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

An excellent definition of CRF and non CRF!

A definition that has been repeated as nauseam on AH. And yet the discussion continues..

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I never used a left hand rifle let alone a Sako.
I would not use a Sako 85 action for a DG rifle build, especially 458 Lott

Now some turn scopes to try and fix a problem on the action? Why? I could not as I use German nr.4 reticle....

Sako 85 is semi CRF....

The true benefit of a Mauser type crf action is not only the crf part but also the extraction part, with a massive extractor and setup which also provides camming power to ensure reliable extraction.
This is very important for straight wall cases such as the Lott.

I rely on the Mauser system of the ZKK for my dg rifles, never had issues or the need to rotate scopes.....

The F stands for “feed”. Nothing to do with extraction.. There is no “semi” crf. An action either is or isn’t.

I do think it’s worth discussing what CRF action is best.

That said I full agree that the ejection issue is due to a design flaw. Said flaw (if your rifle has it) does limit you to what type reticle you can use. Basically just Duplex I guess.

You’ve stated before that you think the R8 is suitable for DG. What makes it ok and the Sako 85 not? If the ejection issue of the 85 is addressed. Is the R8 ok in your opinion unless it’s chambered in 458 Lott?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

True. Not alleged problem but a real one. I believe one of the forum members here had that very issue with a Sako. Because of the geometry between the ejector and extractor, a fired case can eject at too high an angle and hit the scope's right side turret cap. I've even had it happen with a Win 70 CRF. It is very common with Rem 700s that have had a Sako style or M16 style extractor added. On the two lug Remington the new extractor is added against the edge of the lug thus the geometry is changed between ejector and extractor. So during ejection the case is thrown out at a higher angle. If the ejected case only hits the turret cap, and not part of the mount or scope body, the simple solution is to rotate scope 90' left. Of course this only works with scopes having two adjustment turrets. And if left handed action, then there are no turrets on left side of two turret scope so no issue. Also this solution obviously won't work with the common and trendy three turret scopes

I only have simple crosshair reticle, two turret scopes on my hunting rifles and they are all mounted rotated 90' left. Plus ther is an added benefit of getting the turret out of the way for hasty loading.
View attachment 552848

What's the difference between a Sako and M16 extractors? I'm only asking because I have a Rem 700 SPS .300WM and I thought one or the other may be an improvement, although I've NEVER had an extraction issue with it. Thanks!

Basically the same and both attach to the same place adjacent to the lug. Only slight differences in the way they attach to the bolt body. Most think the M16 style is slightly more secure because of the cross pin design. Both the Sako style and the M16 style extractors are considered more positive than the nub/clip design of the original 700. The 700s I've handled that have had the extraction conversion done seem very positive and robust for extraction and ejection with the only issue being the geometry between the ejector and the extractor where, in some of the modified 700s, cases are ejected at a higher angle that may hit the right side scope turret. I had a 721 with the Sako/M16 style extractor eject at a very high angle after the modification. The simple solution was rotating the scope 90' left, clearing the turret out of the way.

I think the more complicated solution to the ejection angle is the addition of another plunger ejector. On M700s with either Sako or M16 extractors that is.

GUNSMITHING SERVICES: Dual ejectors for M700's with AR15/M16 Extractors

Problem Statement: Ejection with a factory bolt M700 fitted with an AR15/M16 extractor has always been plagued with an annoying problem. The issue is the ejection angle of the case body as it pivots on the extractor claw and attempts to leave the loading port of the action. The factory...

www.longriflesinc.com

Or get an aftermarket bolt designed for that extractor/ejector setup from the get go.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

A definition that has been repeated as nauseam on AH. And yet the discussion continues..

Ad nauseam!!