Is this normal behavior by a Safari outfitter?

[franzfmdavis]

I don’t understand your question in the first paragraph. Are you asking as a hunter or as if an outfitter? Where did your $800 amount come from? $25k? Are you adding up fees for all four hunters?

I was referring to the conversation that started the chain of discussions that led to this issue.

I had mentioned in a subsequent post above that I had reached out to the outfitter a few days ago to ask whether my brother-in-law and I could each add a cape Buffalo, a giraffe and a zebra in addition to the other animals in our basic package. Based on the trophy price list they had previously provided this would result in an additional $25,000 or more in trophy fees for the outfitter. Obviously not all of those fees would be profit, and I do not have any clue what percentage of the total trophy fees for the profit margin, but i imagine that the outfitters business plan is to offer a “cheaper” package with the hope/plan to make up the “loss” with add on animals. This conversation is what led to the outfitter telling me that the daily rate we had previously been told for the extra night was no longer valid. They did not reach out to me to notify me of that - it was just brought up as an ancillary point.

 

[franzfmdavis]

This fella is not booked with a charter flight and export/treatment of trophies is always exclusive of the daily rate or safari operator's costs. This is about the operator charging an exorbitant rate for ONE extra day. I'm sorry, but I have a really, really hard time believing the operators costs have gone up that much since the original booking. If there is a spot for these four to stay, then outfitter should accommodate. If he is fully booked up, which I find hard to believe given the way this outfit is set up (i.e. brigade size mess hall), then perhaps that MIGHT be a different story. Then these clients should just be told to spend a night in town at a hotel and do some shopping.

I wouldn't give that sorry outfit +$400/day for plains game no matter what. Never. Not for one day or a hundred. It's not the way I hunt. And I have seen enough reports on here to know that outfit genuinely is NOT interested in return customers ... except for the really big tippers. You know, the ones with $1K safari hats.

Im going to have to upgrade my hat I bet Gucci makes something that could work?

 

[franzfmdavis]

A few bits of thought based on the details here and various inputs:

1. Outfitter should absolutely honor their quoted prices when shown in writing back to them. At the bare minimum, if it was truly an error in quote, apologize and explain the situation and then try to amicably resolve to Clients satisfaction.

2. $180 USD per hunter, especially as a Group of 4+, is likely sufficient to relatively cover operator costs of personnel for 1 add on day of PG hunting in RSA. A year or so ago, that was a common price point to see for regular day rates. Current prices are generally closer to $300-400 per day for PG, often a bit higher for DG. ... if OP was asking for a week extra at lower rate, it would be a much different conversation than 1 day, especially since he has that 1 day at $180 in writing as stated price.

3. I adamantly disagree that OP is trying to "scam" the outfitter for an extra day that would cause outfitter to lose money. He has specifically not posted Outfitter or hunt details and left it vague to try and hide the identity/name of who he's booked with.
3a. If $220 is the difference in outfitter making/losing money on a (presumably) 5-10 day hunt, the Outfitter is already losing money and should have never agreed to the hunt in the first place.

4. If this is a package hunt with animals and hunt costs combined for a set price, I probably wouldn't let this 1 day disagreement dissuade me from going. As mentioned by others, spend the extra day elsewhere and continue on. ... if it is a package of hunt cost only, with trophy fees to be added at then-current pricing, I would still go, but my "hit list" would get a lot smaller depending on what those trophy prices are and what my hunt budget is.

5. The most important thing I can offer is to not let this ruin your hunt. If it will, you should try to recoup any deposits you can and/or walk away and plan a different hunt.

I hope this works out for you. Let us know what the Owner says, or if you can come to an amicable solution.

I won’t let it ruin my hunt and actually even if I was not able to go on this hunt and lost all my money I am still so excited to have been bitten by African hunting bug! I think my wife is getting sick of hearing about it, and I have focused all of my extra resources on guns and gear, but its been a blast and it has gripped my two year old as well who runs around the house shooting “dagga boy” shadows!

This forum is the only social media that I am on and its been great fun and very informative!

 

[Scott CWO]

I was referring to the conversation that started the chain of discussions that led to this issue.

I had mentioned in a subsequent post above that I had reached out to the outfitter a few days ago to ask whether my brother-in-law and I could each add a cape Buffalo, a giraffe and a zebra in addition to the other animals in our basic package. Based on the trophy price list they had previously provided this would result in an additional $25,000 or more in trophy fees for the outfitter. Obviously not all of those fees would be profit, and I do not have any clue what percentage of the total trophy fees for the profit margin, but i imagine that the outfitters business plan is to offer a “cheaper” package with the hope/plan to make up the “loss” with add on animals. This conversation is what led to the outfitter telling me that the daily rate we had previously been told for the extra night was no longer valid. They did not reach out to me to notify me of that - it was just brought up as an ancillary point.

Gotcha. Well, you haven’t even heard back from the owner yet so I’m not sure why you started this thread in the first place. Perhaps he will honor the one-sided deal or you can come to a compromise.

 

[franzfmdavis]

Gotcha. Well, you haven’t even heard back from the owner yet so I’m not sure why you started this thread in the first place. Perhaps he will honor the one-sided deal or you can come to a compromise.

I have explained the reasons why I posted the question in my initial and subsequent comments.

Im not sure I understand the reference to a “one sided” deal, but it doesn't matter.

Overall, it appears that this discussion has offended you, so perhaps you should move on to other threads.

 

[steve white]

I'm feeling a lot of love for CWO's posts--we must empathize with the outfitter at times if it is reasonable--given $180 per day, IT IS REASONABLE. I would not fear other changes to charges AND I would not want an outfitter to strictly give me only what he thought I had coming for the price paid. He could lose enthusiasm for helping you have a great hunt if you get stingy. I want the PH to be happy, and the hunt to be all we can enthusiastically make it to be--is the way to get that to nit-pick? Be a good client, let him be a good outfitter. It takes both.
FWIW, I would take all the extra animals you had planned--it is far more expensive to pay for a whole nother trip to get them! Have a blast and don't spoil it by trying to squeeze blood from a turnip.

 

[franzfmdavis]

I'm feeling a lot of love for CWO's posts--we must empathize with the outfitter at times if it is reasonable--given $180 per day, IT IS REASONABLE. I would not fear other changes to charges AND I would not want an outfitter to strictly give me only what he thought I had coming for the price paid. He could lose enthusiasm for helping you have a great hunt if you get stingy. I want the PH to be happy, and the hunt to be all we can enthusiastically make it to be--is the way to get that to nit-pick? Be a good client, let him be a good outfitter. It takes both.
FWIW, I would take all the extra animals you had planned--it is far more expensive to pay for a whole nother trip to get them! Have a blast and don't spoil it by trying to squeeze blood from a turnip.

I agree with a lot of your points, but I do not understand why you think the outfitters actions are reasonable? This is not to say that I am correct, but only that I cannot understand it.

I posted this question in part to make sure I was not the one with unreasonable expectations. Many who commented in this thread seem to agree with my initial reaction, but some do not.

I would genuinely appreciate if you could more thoroughly explain your position (if you have the time and inclination) so that I can take it “under advisement” as the judges used to say in court.

 

[Ridge Runner]

This was an al-a-cart hunt, he said that’s a great animal do you want it. He did and missed. The PH was unaware of the policy on this property and was surprised as well.

Thanks for the clarity.
This is a whole different meaning to missed shot.

During a late night discussion I asked the consortium of PHs about clients missing animals. And I reflected back to the answer I was given.

Back in the day we watched BUCKMASTERS, IIRC. When we had deer camp, if a hunter shoots at and misses a deer he lost his shirt tail (gets it cut/hacked off by the hunter who witnessed the miss or by the hunter who drew the short straw, or he gets a his hat ventilated, the hunter hangs his hat on the target board and watches his hat being shot full of holes by everyone in camp.

 

[Scott CWO]

A few bits of thought based on the details here and various inputs:

1. Outfitter should absolutely honor their quoted prices when shown in writing back to them. At the bare minimum, if it was truly an error in quote, apologize and explain the situation and then try to amicably resolve to Clients satisfaction.

2. $180 USD per hunter, especially as a Group of 4+, is likely sufficient to relatively cover operator costs of personnel for 1 add on day of PG hunting in RSA. A year or so ago, that was a common price point to see for regular day rates. Current prices are generally closer to $300-400 per day for PG, often a bit higher for DG. ... if OP was asking for a week extra at lower rate, it would be a much different conversation than 1 day, especially since he has that 1 day at $180 in writing as stated price.

3. I adamantly disagree that OP is trying to "scam" the outfitter for an extra day that would cause outfitter to lose money. He has specifically not posted Outfitter or hunt details and left it vague to try and hide the identity/name of who he's booked with.
3a. If $220 is the difference in outfitter making/losing money on a (presumably) 5-10 day hunt, the Outfitter is already losing money and should have never agreed to the hunt in the first place.

4. If this is a package hunt with animals and hunt costs combined for a set price, I probably wouldn't let this 1 day disagreement dissuade me from going. As mentioned by others, spend the extra day elsewhere and continue on. ... if it is a package of hunt cost only, with trophy fees to be added at then-current pricing, I would still go, but my "hit list" would get a lot smaller depending on what those trophy prices are and what my hunt budget is.

5. The most important thing I can offer is to not let this ruin your hunt. If it will, you should try to recoup any deposits you can and/or walk away and plan a different hunt.

I hope this works out for you. Let us know what the Owner says, or if you can come to an amicable solution.

Your #2 could not be correct. $180 for a PH for each hunter plus trackers, cooks, skinners, etc… is too low, even in SA to cover staffing. Then the outfitter is also just supposed to eat the costs of food, fuel, lodging, cleaning, etc…?

I get it that the admin folks quoted too low and that is their fault but let’s not disregard costs.

 

[sureshot375]

Your #2 could not be correct. $180 for a PH for each hunter plus trackers, cooks, skinners, etc… is too low, even in SA to cover staffing. Then the outfitter is also just supposed to eat the costs of food, fuel, lodging, cleaning, etc…?

I get it that the admin folks quoted too low and that is their fault but let’s not disregard costs.

180 a day is slightly above the going rate for a PH and his vehicle for a day. They are probably hunting 2 on 1. The PH makes his money on tips. The outfitter makes his money on trophy fees. This particular outfit “donates” tons of hunts which means they are set up to make money with 0 daily rates. The expense is all baked into the trophy fees.

In general I agree that 420 is a more reasonable daily rate, but 180 is the rate that he was quoted. It’s not going to break this outfitter given their model.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Your #2 could not be correct. $180 for a PH for each hunter plus trackers, cooks, skinners, etc… is too low, even in SA to cover staffing. Then the outfitter is also just supposed to eat the costs of food, fuel, lodging, cleaning, etc…?

I get it that the admin folks quoted too low and that is their fault but let’s not disregard costs.

Compromise with them. What they are asking is fair and reasonable, the error is that they misquoted. Why spoil your whole experience over digging in against the correct value?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Your #2 could not be correct. $180 for a PH for each hunter plus trackers, cooks, skinners, etc… is too low, even in SA to cover staffing. Then the outfitter is also just supposed to eat the costs of food, fuel, lodging, cleaning, etc…?

I get it that the admin folks quoted too low and that is their fault but let’s not disregard costs.

Right. And which South African safari outfit are you operating?

 

[Scott CWO]

180 a day is slightly above the going rate for a PH and his vehicle for a day. They are probably hunting 2 on 1. The PH makes his money on tips. The outfitter makes his money on trophy fees. This particular outfit “donates” tons of hunts which means they are set up to make money with 0 daily rates. The expense is all baked into the trophy fees.

In general I agree that 420 is a more reasonable daily rate, but 180 is the rate that he was quoted. It’s not going to break this outfitter given their model.

I never said it would break the outfitter. It also wouldn’t break the hunters to pay something fair to at least cover direct costs.

 

[Scott CWO]

Right. And which South African safari outfit are you operating?

I’m quite sure that my 34 years in the industry, my conversations with my African contacts, conversations with outfitter and PH friends from Africa and a dozen safaris in Africa give me an insight beyond most.

Which South African safari outfit are you operating?

 

[grand veneur]

This fella is not booked with a charter flight and export/treatment of trophies is always exclusive of the daily rate or safari operator's costs. This is about the operator charging an exorbitant rate for ONE extra day. I'm sorry, but I have a really, really hard time believing the operators costs have gone up that much since the original booking. If there is a spot for these four to stay, then outfitter should accommodate. If he is fully booked up, which I find hard to believe given the way this outfit is set up (i.e. brigade size mess hall), then perhaps that MIGHT be a different story. Then these clients should just be told to spend a night in town at a hotel and do some shopping.

I wouldn't give that sorry outfit +$400/day for plains game no matter what. Never. Not for one day or a hundred. It's not the way I hunt. And I have seen enough reports on here to know that outfit genuinely is NOT interested in return customers ... except for the really big tippers. You know, the ones with $1K safari hats.

Transfers, charter-flight and trophies supply were only meant as examples of everything that are additional cost and that can also be very different between what was initially discussed and what is then finally invoiced.

After reading the initial post again, there is clearly a misinformation regarding the price of an additional day of hunting. 180 USD is the price of an one day stay in a hunting camp without hunting. In return, 420 USD is an absolutely realistic daily-rate for hunting PG, no matter how many hunters still want to hunt together or not. Anyone who has experience with hunting in Africa would have reacted immediately when the price of 180 USD was mentioned and pointed out again that it was about an extra day of hunting and not just about a stay in the camp.

 

[GuttormG]

But nobody denies that $180 is unrealistic for all the services provided!?!

Go ahead y’all and just take advantage of the outfitter’s mistake and feel good about it! Don’t become a friend of the outfitter and understand both sides. The outfitter said $180 so ride that horse home for four hunters when it’s not a fair charge. Who cares about the outfitter’s costs, even when the client is the one that requested another day outside of the package.

Do you feel ethical paying just $180 for lodging, meals, PH, ranches to hunt and all the other costs??

Unrealistic or ethical, the $180/day was the outfitters pricelist. There is no mistake, there is a company not honoring what was agreed.

I

 

[Dewald]

It is frustrating and tempting to do so but a couple members of our group are on a tight budget, and this would probably be their only opportunity to do such a thing and they are very excited to do so. We have already paid for the package and our airline tickets.

I would normally prioritize principle over cost, but I can’t make that unilateral decision on behalf of four people.

I am still holding out a bit of hope that I can sort this out with the owner and I have reached out to him to discuss. @Ruraldoc has also been kind enough to contact him on my behalf based on their prior relationship/friendship.

I would walk away from this entire situation. Even if they confirm that prices for game will not increase above the fee on the price list, and they honour the $180 for the last day you are going to constantly wonder if there are going to be surprises, up to the time that your trophies arrive back in the States. There are so many well priced honest South African outfitters that will accommodate you on this site that you do not have to be taken hostage by the current outfitter.

I have on multiple occasions guided a hunt where a “loss” is made on fuel for a long drive, accommodating a spouse/child, a change in a singe animal’s price etc.

If a quality hunt is offered, the outfitter still makes a profit on the rest of the package, whether sold as a package or broken down in day rates and animal prices, plus you send a happy client home who’s word of mouth is worth ten fold more than the few bucks you end up not having made on that last day rate.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

With all due respect (I really mean that) @Scott CWO, you don’t have to gate keep for the outfitter just because you are one.

Someone clearly misquoted and the OP has already said that he didn’t realize that due to his inexperience. The misquoting could have easily been explained but the person didn’t handle it appropriately. Hopefully the owner will take care of the situation.

Also, if $180 a day is a problem for one day perhaps they shouldn’t have offered hunts at that day rate in the first place. The guys are probably hunting 2:1 anyway. The PHs will be taken care of. The owner may have to eat a little but this is not the end of the world.

If the outfitter is the one who has been suspected then they have enough hunters coming through every year to make this a non issue for them financially speaking.

 

[375er]

Not to distract this topic but on the subject of missed shot penalties...I recently cancelled a guided turkey hunt that had in the contract, missed shots are $1500 penalty on a $1800 hunt. Not just wounding, which makes sense but a missed shot on a turkey. It was never stated until the final hunt contract was sent to me about 2 weeks before the hunt. I found it in the fine print. I texted with the guide to confirm it was correct...it was...I cancelled the hunt and walked away from my 50% deposit. That's inappropriate on a turkey hunt or other big game. A clean miss should not have that kind of penalty. So I'm seeing more of this lately but won't support it.

A miss is just that. A miss. If no blood is found why agree to pay for a visit from Mr. Murphy. B.S.

 

[Philip Glass]

In April of 2024, I book a trip for April 2025 for myself and 3 other hunters. After we booked our flights, we realized that we would be in country for one additional day that we could use to hunt. I communicated this to the outfitter and they said they could accommodate the extra hunting day at a certain per day per hunter ($180). There was no indication in our correspondence that this daily rate was subject to change without notice.

I recently inquired about a different issue and the outfitter referenced our trip without the extra day. When I reminded them that we had confirmed an extra day, I was told in response that they could accommodate that but the daily had had been increased to over 120% of the previously confirmed price ($420).

Though I provided them with copies of the email correspondence through which we had confirmed and reserved the extra day, they maintained that "all prices are subject to change without prior notice." They referred me to a welcome letter they had sent which did state this at a couple places in the letter.

To me, this seems unfair and unreasonable, but perhaps it is a common expectation? I would appreciate any thoughts.

I did speak with @Ruraldoc about this since he has hunted with the same outfitter, and he also thought it was unreasonable and recommended I speak with the owner (rather than the administrator, with whom I have been communicating). I am planning to do so per his recommendation, but welcome additional input before I do so.

As I'm sure you can all imagine, if "all prices are subject to change without prior notice," I could choose to hunt a certain animal listed at a certain price and then after killing the animal be informed that the price had changed to more than double? That is not palatable to my sense of fairness.

This sounds like a frustrating situation. I would just add that $180/day is not what most would charge for a hunting day with a PH but more of an observer day rate.
I would ask questions but don't nix the safari you have set up over this small price increase.