Is this normal behavior by a Safari outfitter?

[Scott CWO]

Well, the trophy fees are still up in the air. They told me yesterday that the list they provided for additional animals when I booked. The hunt is no longer current. They provided me with a list for 2024, but also stated that this was not going to be current for our hunt in 2025. I asked when the list would be available for 2025 and the response was that it could change any time depending on the circumstances and agreements they have with the various farms. Interpret to me that there is no set trophy fee, which makes it impossible for me to decide what to hunt because I have no idea what it would cost. I’m not going to plan to hunt an animal to shoot it and be told afterward that it cost five times what I thought it would cost.

Hopefully, all of this can be sorted out with the owner and I’m going to simply ask for a firm contract to resolve all this, but at this point, it’s all still up in the air

Trophy fees going up a bit per year is standard policy. Welcome to the reality in the big leagues. Going up 5 times is hyperbole and even doubling is unheard of but be prepared for reasonable increases based on exactly what you’ve been told - increases in cost the outfitter incurs.

 

[WAB]

Seems it was a package priced hunt where the “daily rate” was reduced to $180 and a certain number of animals were part of the package. Nobody can make a living on $180 per day. The outfitter will be going backwards if you stay an extra day for $180 and don’t shoot anything and pay a trophy fee. His cost of PH, trackers, fuel, food, cooks, ranches, etc… are way more than $180 per day! That’s why the extra day is more expensive. Look at it from a business point of view instead of as a hunter trying to get everything as cheap as possible. Your requested extra day was not part of the package price. Who’s trying to cheat who here?

As someone in the industry, I’m going against the grain of most replies to this thread. I know the costs involved. I’ve never raised prices after a hunt is contracted but adding an extra day comes at a cost and the hunter will have to at least cover costs or I’m not adding an extra day. $180 is a joke.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the extra day had been offered at $180 and then the price was increased to $480 at a later date. If that is the case, I stand behind my comment, honor your word even if it costs you money.

If in fact it was just an assumption that the extra day would be at the package rate, well that is a poor assumption to make. The devil is in the details.

 

[BRICKBURN]

$40/missed shot? I've hunted waterfowl with guys who would have to remortgage their homes to pay for a week's guided hunt in Saskatchewan. . No one has charged me for anything but daily rate and trophy fees in Africa. Would have set me back eighty bucks on my last safari. I think the embarrassment of missing two shots was much more painful ... and I am a thrifty guy.

I have been to several places that have used it as a threat on the price list. I have never known anyone to have paid it.'
Usually, embarrassment is enough punishment.

 

[Green Chile]

Not to distract this topic but on the subject of missed shot penalties...I recently cancelled a guided turkey hunt that had in the contract, missed shots are $1500 penalty on a $1800 hunt. Not just wounding, which makes sense but a missed shot on a turkey. It was never stated until the final hunt contract was sent to me about 2 weeks before the hunt. I found it in the fine print. I texted with the guide to confirm it was correct...it was...I cancelled the hunt and walked away from my 50% deposit. That's inappropriate on a turkey hunt or other big game. A clean miss should not have that kind of penalty. So I'm seeing more of this lately but won't support it.

 

[Rem280]

I understand if the rate is not consistent with the cost-of-living or the cost of business, but I was not the one that proposed that rate. I asked what the daily rate was and they told me $180 for hunters. If they wanted it to be $420 then that’s what they should have communicated. my issue is not with the rate, but rather with the fact that they communicated one as the basis for an agreement, and then are claiming they can unilaterally change it at any time.

This certainly would not be possible under contract law in any state here.

Sorry to hear sir. They should stand by their word if a mistake is made. I recommend KMG next time ; )

 

[franzfmdavis]

Not to distract this topic but on the subject of missed shot penalties...I recently cancelled a guided turkey hunt that had in the contract, missed shots are $1500 penalty on a $1800 hunt. Not just wounding, which makes sense but a missed shot on a turkey. It was never stated until the final hunt contract was sent to me about 2 weeks before the hunt. I found it in the fine print. I texted with the guide to confirm it was correct...it was...I cancelled the hunt and walked away from my 50% deposit. That's inappropriate on a turkey hunt or other big game. A clean miss should not have that kind of penalty. So I'm seeing more of this lately but won't support it.

Good for walking away. I would too, but the fact that they are trying to add that nonsense in the fine print concerning….fucking lawyers (coming from a lawyer)

 

[dchum]

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the extra day had been offered at $180 and then the price was increased to $480 at a later date. If that is the case, I stand behind my comment, honor your word even if it costs you money.

If in fact it was just an assumption that the extra day would be at the package rate, well that is a poor assumption to make. The devil is in the details.

That was the case and is in a screen shot of an email. ($420 at later date). It keeps going up every page of this thread

But please go see the screenshot OP posted. Clear as day

Miss quoting is unfortunate for everyone involved…. I know In my industry if I go back on a quote they will just move on to someone else as it leaves a sour taste. Which I completely get.

I understand cost of business but quoting is part of it and you better make sure you do it right. Kuche did not and I would be upset too. OP has all the right to be frustrated

 

[franzfmdavis]

That was the case and is in a screen shot of an email. ($420 at later date). It keeps going up every page of this thread

But please go see the screenshot OP posted. Clear as day

Miss quoting is unfortunate for everyone involved…. I know In my industry if I go back on a quote they will just move on to someone else as it leaves a sour taste. Which I completely get.

I understand cost of business but quoting is part of it and you better make sure you do it right. Kuche did not and I would be upset too. OP has all the right to be frustrated

I think it’s important to note that when they quoted me that daily rate $(180), it was consistent with what was listed on the outfitter’s website. They have since updated their website which they are certainly entitled to do, but it does not give them right to retroactively change peoples agreements. The administrator said that they update the fees every July, which again is totally understandable from a business perspective, but it is not ethical in my opinion to go back and change peoples prior agreements, unless you have forewarned them that all things will be built according to the rate in effect on the year of the hunt, at which point they would have little ability to plan because people would not book until rates were advertised.

There’s just no rational way around it, and I have tried to think of it from an objective standpoint. The business model based on “all fees are subject to change at any point without prior notice” is not a sustainable business model because people will understandably feel taken advantage of.

 

[WAB]

I think it’s important to note that when they quoted me that daily rate $(180), it was consistent with what was listed on the outfitter’s website. They have since updated their website which they are certainly entitled to do, but it does not give them right to retroactively change peoples agreements. The administrator said that they update the fees every July, which again is totally understandable from a business perspective, but it is not ethical in my opinion to go back and change peoples prior agreements, unless you have forewarned them that all things will be built according to the rate in effect on the year of the hunt, at which point they would have little ability to plan because people would not book until rates were advertised.

There’s just no rational way around it, and I have tried to think of it from an objective standpoint. The business model based on “all fees are subject to change at any point without prior notice” is not a sustainable business model because people will understandably feel taken advantage of.

I’m sorry they have treated you like this. Personally I would walk away as I wouldn’t want to spend time with them after they have done this.

 

[franzfmdavis]

I’m sorry they have treated you like this. Personally I would walk away as I wouldn’t want to spend time with them after they have done this.

It is frustrating and tempting to do so but a couple members of our group are on a tight budget, and this would probably be their only opportunity to do such a thing and they are very excited to do so. We have already paid for the package and our airline tickets.

I would normally prioritize principle over cost, but I can’t make that unilateral decision on behalf of four people.

I am still holding out a bit of hope that I can sort this out with the owner and I have reached out to him to discuss. @Ruraldoc has also been kind enough to contact him on my behalf based on their prior relationship/friendship.

 

[franzfmdavis]

He said a package hunt not an auction or donated hunt or did I miss something, definitely two different animals.

I was not aware of reason why that would impact the specific issue we are talking about, but the reason I was specifically vague about the hunt we already booked and paid for is that I am trying to be respectful of the owners business reputation at this point and don’t want to get into details that would make it easier to identify the outfit.

This is all still from just my perspective and having litigated for 22 years I can fully understand that every dispute has multiple perspectives. I do not think the owner is on this thread and maybe he’s not even on this site so my hope was to discuss this issue more theoretically rather than as it relates to the specific business.

 

[Scott CWO]

But nobody denies that $180 is unrealistic for all the services provided!?!

Go ahead y’all and just take advantage of the outfitter’s mistake and feel good about it! Don’t become a friend of the outfitter and understand both sides. The outfitter said $180 so ride that horse home for four hunters when it’s not a fair charge. Who cares about the outfitter’s costs, even when the client is the one that requested another day outside of the package.

 

[grand veneur]

In April of 2024, I book a trip for April 2025 for myself and 3 other hunters. After we booked our flights, we realized that we would be in country for one additional day that we could use to hunt. I communicated this to the outfitter and they said they could accommodate the extra hunting day at a certain per day per hunter ($180). There was no indication in our correspondence that this daily rate was subject to change without notice.

I recently inquired about a different issue and the outfitter referenced our trip without the extra day. When I reminded them that we had confirmed an extra day, I was told in response that they could accommodate that but the daily had had been increased to over 120% of the previously confirmed price ($420).

Though I provided them with copies of the email correspondence through which we had confirmed and reserved the extra day, they maintained that "all prices are subject to change without prior notice." They referred me to a welcome letter they had sent which did state this at a couple places in the letter.

To me, this seems unfair and unreasonable, but perhaps it is a common expectation? I would appreciate any thoughts.

I did speak with @Ruraldoc about this since he has hunted with the same outfitter, and he also thought it was unreasonable and recommended I speak with the owner (rather than the administrator, with whom I have been communicating). I am planning to do so per his recommendation, but welcome additional input before I do so.

As I'm sure you can all imagine, if "all prices are subject to change without prior notice," I could choose to hunt a certain animal listed at a certain price and then after killing the animal be informed that the price had changed to more than double? That is not palatable to my sense of fairness.

Our hunting agents are not charities and if you don't understand that, it's your own fault if there are surprises regarding costs. It's all about doing business here and that's why clients are lured with prices that are ultimately lower than the real ones. With increasing experience with hunting worldwide you learn this.

 

[WAB]

But nobody denies that $180 is unrealistic for all the services provided!?!

Go ahead y’all and just take advantage of the outfitter’s mistake and feel good about it! Don’t become a friend of the outfitter and understand both sides. The outfitter said $180 so ride that horse home for four hunters when it’s not a fair charge. Who cares about the outfitter’s costs, even when the client is the one that requested another day outside of the package.

I think it’s more the way things have been done and continue to be done. I totally get your point on the cost. If you did this to me on a hunt, I know you would come to me and say look, we made a mistake. I’m really going to take a bath if we stick to this price. At which point I would totally agree with you and pay the higher price.

 

[franzfmdavis]

Our hunting agents are not charities and if you don't understand that, it's your own fault if there are surprises regarding costs. It's all about doing business here and that's why clients are lured with prices that are ultimately lower than the real ones. With increasing experience with hunting worldwide you learn this.

I may “realize” this with more experience hunting worldwide as you state, but I will never accept that any of the criteria you claim should be self evident are reasonable or ethical.

 

[Scott CWO]

A bit off subject but this is just another problem with African “daily rates.” They are only daily rates when a hunter wants to add days but if you get done with your safari early and leave early, you are still charged for all the days. Outfitters shouldn’t have it both ways. Daily rates are just a marketing ploy to make the hunt sound less expensive. If it was truly a “daily rate” refunds would be given for days not used.

African outfitters should just price hunts with a total charge per trip plus trophy fees for what is killed. If extra days are requested and granted, then establish a fair daily rate that covers costs and a bit of profit. In the USA, I don’t do extra days for less than $500 per day.

 

[Scott CWO]

I think it’s more the way things have been done and continue to be done. I totally get your point on the cost. If you did this to me on a hunt, I know you would come to me and say look, we made a mistake. I’m really going to take a bath if we stick to this price. At which point I would totally agree with you and pay the higher price.

My point exactly.

 

[Scott CWO]

I may “realize” this with more experience hunting worldwide as you state, but I will never accept that any of the criteria you claim should be self evident are reasonable or ethical.

Do you feel ethical paying just $180 for lodging, meals, PH, ranches to hunt and all the other costs??

 

[franzfmdavis]

I think it’s more the way things have been done and continue to be done. I totally get your point on the cost. If you did this to me on a hunt, I know you would come to me and say look, we made a mistake. I’m really going to take a bath if we stick to this price. At which point I would totally agree with you and pay the higher price

Certainly that would’ve been a better middle ground approach. I think the best approach would have been for them to say we can add a day to your hunt as requested, but the cost is uncertain at this point since you are over one year out from your trip. It will likely cost much more than the current daily rate so plan to pay more than that and we will notify you as soon as we know what the rate is.

It is not reasonable to quote a specific rate and say nothing about the fact that it can change, especially when the person requesting it has indicated they can change their flight plan if need be.

This has nothing to do with outfitters being charities or trying to take advantage of them. I did not insist on a rate nor did I expect them to give me a rate based on the package deal. I expressly asked what an additional day would cost and they could have said any number. They could have quoted a rate that exceeded any other outfitter and then it would have been up to me to say yes or no. However, when they quote a rate that is within their control and then I accept that rate it should be honored. Any position to the contrary is not consistent with any principle of law that is practiced here in the United States. I recognize that this is not a United States contract, which is why I raised this question with the forum to see what other experiences had been. Seen the bulk of responses. I think I am justified in feeling taken advantage of.

Again, hopefully, I can resolve this when I speak directly with the owner.

 

[Brian]

I believe that when a travelling hunter gets substandard service or just plain ripped off, the hunter should report the problem and the name on every public blog/forum possible. It's about accountability.
Brian