Is the .458 Win Mag not a step up over the .416's?

[Northern Shooter]

I have an opportunity to buy a .458 Win Mag rifle for a pretty good deal. As someone who has been on the hunt for a .416, I looked into the ballistics of each and it actually looks like the .416's are putting out more energy than the .458?

Am I missing something here? I'm aware that the 458 Lott steps up both the velocity and energy over the Win Mag but I'm surprised to see that the hottest (factory) .458 Win Mag loads are producing a hair over 5,000 lb-ft while 416's are producing upwards of 5,200lb-ft with a smaller, 400 grain bullet.

I was always under the impression that by jumping from .416 to .458 there would be a notable increase in energy and felt recoil.

 

[Flewis]

Speed drives the energy numbers up more than anything. The fast 375s out energy it also.

 

[Flewis]

Speed drives the energy numbers up more than anything. The fast 375s out energy it also.

Yes it’s still a step up.

 

[IvW]

No you are going backwards.....

 

[HWL]

What kind a .458 is it?
A Mauser M98, a Mannlicher-Schoenauer or even a Winchester 70pre64 is ok.
But you will die with a push feed Remington before you reach the shore of Africa.
Power of the .458 is enough fo DG up to a T34 Tank!!!

HWL

 

[Northern Shooter]

What kind a .458 is it?
A Mauser M98, a Mannlicher-Schoenauer or even a Winchester 70pre64 is ok.
But you will die with a push feed Remington before you reach the shore of Africa.
Power of the .458 is enough fo DG up to a T34 Tank!!!

HWL

Its a new Model 70 Safari Express with the 24" barrel.

 

[Northern Shooter]

No you are going backwards.....

I was initially concerned about the "overlap" between 375 and 416 but it appears the overlap between 416/458 is even greater.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Speed drives the energy numbers up more than anything. The fast 375s out energy it also.

I'm guessing you're talking about the Weatherby cartridges? You had me excited there for a minute thinking that somewhere there existed 375H&H moving at 3,000 FPS.

 

[DrBob]

I have an opportunity to buy a .458 Win Mag rifle for a pretty good deal. As someone who has been on the hunt for a .416, I looked into the ballistics of each and it actually looks like the .416's are putting out more energy than the .458?

Am I missing something here? I'm aware that the 458 Lott steps up both the velocity and energy over the Win Mag but I'm surprised to see that the hottest (factory) .458 Win Mag loads are producing a hair over 5,000 lb-ft while 416's are producing upwards of 5,200lb-ft with a smaller, 400 grain bullet.

I was always under the impression that by jumping from .416 to .458 there would be a notable increase in energy and felt recoil.

The 458 has short range power but really tapers off at range. At short range, the diameter of the bullet makes a difference... all things being equal at 5000 pound-feet at muzzle. The 450 grain 416 at 2200 fps will outpenetrate the 458. If you what an all around caliber, the 416 is it. If you want short range stopping power, the 458.

 

[RLL]

I'm guessing you're talking about the Weatherby cartridges? You had me excited there for a minute thinking that somewhere there existed 375H&H moving at 3,000 FPS.

There does, with the right bullet. You can easily get 250gr bullets up close to 3000fps. Even more so with 200-220gr bullets, I do.

 

[DrBob]

I'm guessing you're talking about the Weatherby cartridges? You had me excited there for a minute thinking that somewhere there existed 375H&H moving at 3,000 FPS.

Using Barnes TSX 235 grain, I get 2950 out of my 375 H&H with RL15. Very accurate.

 

[Northern Shooter]

The 458 has short range power but really tapers off at range. At short range, the diameter of the bullet makes a difference... all things being equal at 5000 pound-feet at muzzle. The 450 grain 416 at 2200 fps will outpenetrate the 458. If you what an all around caliber, the 416 is it. If you want short range stopping power, the 458.

I was looking at some of the smaller .458 WM loads like Federal's 400 grain Bonded Bear Claw. It only gains 100 FPS over the 500 grain (2250 FPS) and energy drops to just under 4,500 lb-ft.

I understand that .458 WM is a standard length cartridge vs the magnum length .416 Remington/Rigby's but even the standard length .416 Ruger is pushing a 400 grain bullet at 2,400 FPS and 5,115 ft-lb.

Are factory .458 WM cartridges' loaded intentionally light?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Don’t get too hung up on energy numbers alone. Caliber/frontal area matters

 

[BeeMaa]

Don’t get too hung up on energy numbers alone. Caliber/frontal area matters

As @Wishfulthinker580 said above, one thing you need to consider is sectional density - the ratio of an object's mass to its cross sectional area with respect to a given axis. This is a representation of how well a bullet will penetrate. Generally looking to have a SD above .300 for hunting DG and the larger the number the better.

Given the same bullet construction (I used Hornady DGX Bonded) the sectional density of the 400 grain .416 bullet is .330 and the 500 grain .458 bullet is .341, so a slight edge to the 458WM. Pushing the .416 up to 450 grains or the .458 over 500 grains will increase the SD of each.

458WM ammo cost more especially if you don't reload...but there are several more bullet options than the .416 if you do.

458WM has more recoil, but not a lot. Are you ready for that? How many times are you looking to hunt DG?

458WM can be reamed out to 458LOTT to give you more versatility. IMO, the 458LOTT is the starting point for a "stopping caliber rifle" if you are truly looking for that. The 458LOTT also make numbers that the 458WM can only dream of.

Lot's of things to consider, but I wouldn't get hung up on the numbers. The 458WM will hit harder than a 416RM at DG ranges because of the greater mass of the bullet and better SD, there is no doubt about that.

Both are fun to shoot and if you just want something big and fun, there's no reason to let this opportunity pass you by. Good luck with your decision.

 

[DrBob]

I was looking at some of the smaller .458 WM loads like Federal's 400 grain Bonded Bear Claw. It only gains 100 FPS over the 500 grain (2250 FPS) and energy drops to just under 4,500 lb-ft.

I understand that .458 WM is a standard length cartridge vs the magnum length .416 Remington/Rigby's but even the standard length .416 Ruger is pushing a 400 grain bullet at 2,400 FPS and 5,115 ft-lb.

Are factory .458 WM cartridges' loaded intentionally light?

There are "standard" and "high performance" 458 loads. The high performance loads are the Hornady loads which are 2140 fps at muzzle. Fresh modern loads for the 458 will go easily to 2100 fps. The problem in the past was congealed power from high compression. Wound up with low velocities and bullets bouncing off elephants and buffalo. Not good. The Ruger and Win... along with the 416 Rem are high pressure loads. One can load the Rigby up to its Weatherby level... but why.... it kills well at pressures of a 30-30.

 

[DrBob]

One thing you need to consider is sectional density - the ratio of an object's mass to its cross sectional area with respect to a given axis. This is a representation of how well a bullet will penetrate. Generally looking to have a SD above .300 for hunting DG and the larger the number the better.

Given the same bullet construction (I used Hornady DGX Bonded) the sectional density of the 400 grain .416 bullet is .330 and the 500 grain .458 bullet is .341, so a slight edge to the 458WM. Pushing the .416 up to 450 grains or the .458 over 500 grains will increase the SD of each.

458WM ammo cost more especially if you don't reload...but there are several more bullet options than the .416 if you do.

458WM has more recoil, but not a lot. Are you ready for that? How many times are you looking to hunt DG?

458WM can be reamed out to 458LOTT to give you more versatility. IMO, the 458LOTT is the starting point for a "stopping caliber rifle" if you are truly looking for that. The 458LOTT also make numbers that the 458WM can only dream of.

Lot's of things to consider, but I wouldn't get hung up on the numbers. The 458WM will hit harder than a 416RM at DG ranges because of the greater mass of the bullet and better SD, there is no doubt about that.

Both are fun to shoot and if you just want something big and fun, there's no reason to let this opportunity pass you by. Good luck with your decision.

I still believe the 458 is a stopper. Looking back the real speeds of the British stopping rifles, most were really not as they were in the field. Most were tested with 26 in barrels and in the field ... less. Looking at 1900 or so for the 470 NE. I still like the 45/500/2150 definition of a stopping rifle. That said, no flies on the 416 Rigby. Now...no argument that the 500 is a step up and the 577 is the real deal. The Lott has a very fast recoil... really stabs.

 

[Flewis]

I'm guessing you're talking about the Weatherby cartridges? You had me excited there for a minute thinking that somewhere there existed 375H&H moving at 3,000 FPS.

The 375 ultra mag is up there too, but so are the big 338s.

 

[DrBob]

The 375 ultra mag is up there too, but so are the big 338s.

Too much of a good thing unless going long range hunting on Cape! Of the two, the 338 has reasonable value. The 375 is right back with the 378... a bruiser. I read one time that on one hunt the 460 was worth it...a 100 yard shot on a big tusker... but that is the only scenario. It boils down to location, location, location.... a good first shot is a must. I must admit, the Lott saved my bacon as the buff turned as I shot... the superior velocity and the Barnes banded did the rest.

 

[Flewis]

I still believe the 458 is a stopper. Looking back the real speeds of the British stopping rifles, most were really not as they were in the field. Most were tested with 26 in barrels and in the field ... less. Looking at 1900 or so for the 470 NE. I still like the 45/500/2150 definition of a stopping rifle. That said, no flies on the 416 Rigby. Now...no argument that the 500 is a step up and the 577 is the real deal. The Lott has a very fast recoil... really stabs.

The original speed on nitro express I think was in 28 inch barrels. I saw a test where they were all under 2100fps. Hand loading will get you back up there but that may take a lot of work in a double.

 

[DrBob]

The original speed on nitro express I think was in 28 inch barrels. I saw a test where they were all under 2100fps. Hand loading will get you back up there but that may take a lot of work in a double.

You got the barrel length right I believe... don't have Wirght's book here to check. African game arn't any tougher than 100 years ago.... post rinderpest.