Is the .458 Win Mag not a step up over the .416's?

[Nhoro]

Energy alone is part of the equation. Just remember velocity disappears very rapidly as soon as the bullet hits. The 458 win mag will do the job. A 416 rigby gives a flatter trajectory, you choose what is more important, a bigger hole or flatter trajectory.You can comfortably load 450 gr bullets in a win mag to 2350 fps. That outperforms the rem mag at the cost of recoil. A 458 win mag is capable of anything on the planet, but a 416 can be more versatile- and a 375 h&h even more versatile.

 

[TOBY458]

I wouldn't get hung up on energy figures. It means very little when comparing big bore calibers. Penetration and caliber size are much more important. From those in the know, the 458 WM is at it's best with 450gr bullets at 2250 fps. With good bullets, this will kill any animal on earth with plenty to spare. From what I'm told, using proper flat point solids, this combo will penetrate an elephant nearly lengthwise. What more do you need than that?
The 416 is more versatile IMO, but if you're buying a 416 or 458, you're already getting away from versatility anyway. The 375 H&H, 416 Rem Mag, and 458 Win Mag/Lott all run at similar pressures, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. If you want the best of both worlds, get a 416 Rigby. Low pressure, and all the power you'll ever need as a client. But then you're looking at a more expensive rifle in most cases. Or do like the rest of us nuts, and get one or two of each.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Energy alone is part of the equation. Just remember velocity disappears very rapidly as soon as the bullet hits. The 458 win mag will do the job. A 416 rigby gives a flatter trajectory, you choose what is more important, a bigger hole or flatter trajectory.You can comfortably load 450 gr bullets in a win mag to 2350 fps. That outperforms the rem mag at the cost of recoil. A 458 win mag is capable of anything on the planet, but a 416 can be more versatile- and a 375 h&h even more versatile.

And the 450 grain bullets in .458 cal still have basically the same sectional density as the 300 gr 375 H&H and 286 gr 9.3x62

 

[Inline6]

As @Wishfulthinker580 said above, one thing you need to consider is sectional density - the ratio of an object's mass to its cross sectional area with respect to a given axis. This is a representation of how well a bullet will penetrate. Generally looking to have a SD above .300 for hunting DG and the larger the number the better.

Given the same bullet construction (I used Hornady DGX Bonded) the sectional density of the 400 grain .416 bullet is .330 and the 500 grain .458 bullet is .341, so a slight edge to the 458WM. Pushing the .416 up to 450 grains or the .458 over 500 grains will increase the SD of each.

458WM ammo cost more especially if you don't reload...but there are several more bullet options than the .416 if you do.

458WM has more recoil, but not a lot. Are you ready for that? How many times are you looking to hunt DG?

458WM can be reamed out to 458LOTT to give you more versatility. IMO, the 458LOTT is the starting point for a "stopping caliber rifle" if you are truly looking for that. The 458LOTT also make numbers that the 458WM can only dream of.

Lot's of things to consider, but I wouldn't get hung up on the numbers. The 458WM will hit harder than a 416RM at DG ranges because of the greater mass of the bullet and better SD, there is no doubt about that.

Both are fun to shoot and if you just want something big and fun, there's no reason to let this opportunity pass you by. Good luck with your decision.

Using a 416REM on a buf and a 458LOTT on a Watusi. I'm not convinced one kills better than the other. Having watched both animals soak up the bullets. They were both dead from the first shot. It took more bullets to convince them of it. On both the only bullet that did not stay in them were neck shots.

Was expecting something like a lights switch for both, read many reports of how hard they(.40 and above) hit compared to a 375H&H. Biggest animal taken with my 375H&H was an Eland, he also was not dropped where he stood. He ran about 25 yards and that was it. 300gr Aframe, took out the bottom of his heart.

When you look at the energy numbers, they are not extremely far apart. Looking at a 500Jeff well then you really start taking leaps in the energy department. YMMV

 

[Joker12]

One thing to remember is that energy kills nothing so don't get hung up on it. Injury to vital tissue is what kills. Either of those cartridges with a decent bullet in the proper place will kill anything that walks with no problem. If the rifle is a good deal grab it and use it with confidence!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

The .416 Rigby has a larger case capacity than the .458 Winchester Magnum.

 

[Inline6]

One thing to remember is that energy kills nothing so don't get hung up on it. Injury to vital tissue is what kills. Either of those cartridges with a decent bullet in the proper place will kill anything that walks with no problem. If the rifle is a good deal grab it and use it with confidence!

Their is a reason most countries have minimal energy requirements for hunting DG.

 

[krish]

I have an opportunity to buy a .458 Win Mag rifle for a pretty good deal. As someone who has been on the hunt for a .416, I looked into the ballistics of each and it actually looks like the .416's are putting out more energy than the .458?

Am I missing something here? I'm aware that the 458 Lott steps up both the velocity and energy over the Win Mag but I'm surprised to see that the hottest (factory) .458 Win Mag loads are producing a hair over 5,000 lb-ft while 416's are producing upwards of 5,200lb-ft with a smaller, 400 grain bullet.

I was always under the impression that by jumping from .416 to .458 there would be a notable increase in energy and felt recoil.

It is not the velocity or energy like pandora Taylor said in his book African rifles. You take a needle and shoot at a bag of oats. It will pass through it with no apparent reaction. At the same time tou take a walking stick and push the bag of oats, then it will move or fall down. The idea is energy and surface area. Not just the kinetic energy. ((1/2.M.(V×V) )
Krish

 

[Northern Shooter]

I wouldn't get hung up on energy figures. It means very little when comparing big bore calibers. Penetration and caliber size are much more important. From those in the know, the 458 WM is at it's best with 450gr bullets at 2250 fps. With good bullets, this will kill any animal on earth with plenty to spare. From what I'm told, using proper flat point solids, this combo will penetrate an elephant nearly lengthwise. What more do you need than that?
The 416 is more versatile IMO, but if you're buying a 416 or 458, you're already getting away from versatility anyway. The 375 H&H, 416 Rem Mag, and 458 Win Mag/Lott all run at similar pressures, so I wouldn't worry too much about that. If you want the best of both worlds, get a 416 Rigby. Low pressure, and all the power you'll ever need as a client. But then you're looking at a more expensive rifle in most cases. Or do like the rest of us nuts, and get one or two of each.

One in each flavour sounds like a plan to me.

 

[geoff rath]

My understanding of this is from research, not practical experience. Bullet Sectional Density, construction, and placement at suitable velocities IN THE RIGHT PLACE seem to be the relevant factors. I'll stand corrected as needed. The 416s might give higher velocities than the 458, impact area would factor in, and velocities will vary with bullet weight. 416 300 - 450; 458 450 - 550.
More discussion to come, methinks ...

 

[CoElkHunter]

It is not the velocity or energy like pandora Taylor said in his book African rifles. You take a needle and shoot at a bag of oats. It will pass through it with no apparent reaction. At the same time tou take a walking stick and push the bag of oats, then it will move or fall down. The idea is energy and surface area. Not just the kinetic energy. ((1/2.M.(V×V) )
Krish

Great analysis! That's why Townsend's @Bob Nelson 35Whelen .35BNE with a 250gr. bullet at 2800fps would be much more effective on scrub bulls than his .25 Samurai with a 100gr. bullet at 4Kfps.

 

[Northern Shooter]

The .416 Rigby has a larger case capacity than the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Yeah I could see how the Rigby would have the advantage vs the .458 when they're both shooting 400 grains but how do you explain the significant difference in velocity between 400 grain 416 Ruger and 400 grain .458 WM?

 

[Inline6]

Yeah I could see how the Rigby would have the advantage vs the .458 when they're both shooting 400 grains but how do you explain the significant difference in velocity between 400 grain 416 Ruger and 400 grain .458 WM?

That's easy, case efficiency.

 

[FredIII]

My Winchester 458 put a 450 grain Aframe out the pipe at 2320 with a stiff charge of 2230 that’s nothing my rigby can do. But my Lott runs a 500 grain Aframe at 2300 and it’s a beast. I’d find what I like “can shoot with out pissing a little and kill everything that tops the five with a smile.

 

[FredIII]

PS a 404 Rimmless NE is something to think about.

 

[Frederik]

Just get both or own both so that you can have a .40 caliber and .45 caliber in your safe.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Just get both or own both so that you can have a .40 caliber and .45 caliber in your safe.

Just grabbed a .458 tonight, .416 is the next on my list.

 

[colorado]

Or go big and get a 500. Much harder to find, and find one that shoots, feeds and extracts though.

 

[Inline6]

My Winchester 458 put a 450 grain Aframe out the pipe at 2320 with a stiff charge of 2230 that’s nothing my rigby can do. But my Lott runs a 500 grain Aframe at 2300 and it’s a beast. I’d find what I like “can shoot with out pissing a little and kill everything that tops the five with a smile.

Don't discount the 450 TSX in the Lott or the WM. The 450s are running 2350 out of my Lott and the Don't hurt you in the recoil department. Just something to consider.

 

[geoff rath]

That's easy, case efficiency.

and operating/chamber pressure. I think the 458 runs around the 58,000 - 60,000 CUP mark, the Ruger, close to 64,000. Meanwhile, the R
igby is a pussycat, 45,000 max?