Is the .458 Win Mag not a step up over the .416's?

[mark-hunter]

@Northern Shooter

458 win mag case capacity 6.17 cm3
416 Rigby case capacity 8.36 cm3

458 win mag designed for medium size rifle actions.
416 Rigby designed for magnum lenght rifle actions.

 

[geoff rath]

I don't have a "proper" D/G rifle; reading the reports from Afrika, our Aussie outback, and the wilds of Canuckia and Alaska lead me to think about a compact rilfe/tool. The appeal of a good double, or a compact bolt-action rifle is strong; a 458 or 500 B&M, or a 22" barrelled bolt item such as the one recently sold through AH. (22" CZ550 AHR 416 Rigby). That would be ideal ...

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

Hit a buffalo on the shoulder with a 458 round producing 5000ft/lbs of energy or a 416 round producing 5200ft/lbs of energy and it won't know the difference when using the same bullet design at normal big game distances. It really comes down to personal preference. The 416 may have a slight advantage with penetration because of velocity but the 458 may have a slight advantage with knock down power because of caliber but you are really splitting hairs.

 

[Forrest Halley]

It seems to me the .416 Rigby is the one gun to hunt DG with anywhere anytime. You're covered with range and penetration. Stopping power? I think a loaded up Rigby is pretty potent especially when scaled up beyond traditional pressure. Maybe you'd like to have somebody help you shoot your game, but you might not need it at this level.

Where I don't see it is if I already have a .375 H&H or a .458WM or Lott. One way it's a half step and the other it's a step backwards. The ammunition just plain costs more than either end as well. That's something I'd be alright with in a .500 or a .577, but it rubs me the wrong way to have a bolt gun like that with peers edging it out and nipping its heels being cheaper to shoot.

That said having a rifle in the longest magnum action is appealing.

 

[BeeMaa]

Time to up the game and go with a 450RIGBY so you can shoot a "real" big bore at modest pressures (58K psi) and velocities (2300 fps) with better than 458LOTT performance. Yeah, ammo cost more and so does the rifle, but you didn't get into hunting Africa to save money.

Then @Forrest Halley can have his longest magnum action and eat his cake as well.

BTW - Found this on GI on sale for a song...
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...rms-african-ph-450-rigby.cfm?gun_id=101960272

 

[Pondoro]

I did a simple penetration test on .458Win some years ago prior to an elephant hunt.. I stacked 2" by 8" pine plank to form a 1 meter long bloc. Then I fired a shot from 20 meter range, rifle had 25 inch barrel, ammo was Federal factory with 500 grain Woodleigh Solids..about 25 years old. Several shots consistantly penetrated 96-97 centimetres. How is that for ample penetration on buffalo and elephant..?

 

[Forrest Halley]

Then @Forrest Halley can have his longest magnum action and eat his cake as well.

I'm mighty happy with my .458 Lott. Get one of those bottleneck cartridges and I might be tempted to do something silly. Funny thing about the .450 Rigby is that the last fella I saw building one here, finished it, was proud of it, got quiet about it, and then sold it.

 

[Frederik]

I love the 450 Rigby and it ticks all the boxes except for the magazine capacity.
It just feels right to dump 5 rounds in my CZ550 458 Lott magazine and you could even do one up if you need too.

Whatever the final decision there will be a huge difference in the recoil from a 375 to the 400gr and heavier bullets. It doesnt matter if your gun can shoot 500gr at 2400fps the animal is not going to feel the difference if it was 2100fps or 2400fps its more than adequate to kill any beast.

More speed causes more presurre on the bullet to perform and then suddenly the bullet is to be blamed.

As a sidenote sometimes I love speed I own a 204 Ruger shooting 32gr monolithic bullets at 3900fps its devastating on impact on headshots.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I love the 450 Rigby and it ticks all the boxes except for the magazine capacity.
It just feels right to dump 5 rounds in my CZ550 458 Lott magazine and you could even do one up if you need too.

Whatever the final decision there will be a huge difference in the recoil from a 375 to the 400gr and heavier bullets. It doesnt matter if your gun can shoot 500gr at 2400fps the animal is not going to feel the difference if it was 2100fps or 2400fps its more than adequate to kill any beast.

Except 2100 fps is only 4900 ft-lbs, while 2400 fps is now 6400ft-lbs.

I respectfully disagree and I believe the recipient of appropriate size is going to visibly demonstrate a different reaction to the difference of 1500 ft-lbs. Those are two entirely different classes of rifle.
Two illustrations:
It is like comparing a .243 firing a 80 grain TTSX at 3350 fps producing 2,000 ft-lbs vs. a .300 WM firing a 165 grain TTSX at 3100 fps producing 3500 ft-lbs. That's two very different reactions at 150 yards on a deer or elk.
Or in keeping with the same bullet weight, look at the Federal 150 grain .308 Fusion bullet across five calibers: 300 BLK, .30-30 Win, .308 Win, .30-06 Sprg, and 300WM. Values in fps/ft-lbs rounded for convenience and it should be noted that the .30-30 is a different SKU, but was included to show the variation of power levels. 1900/1200 2400/1900 2800/2600 2900/2800 3200/3400
The only thing similar here is the .308 and '06. Everything else is clearly a different power level with the most relevant jump being .308 vs. 300 WM which are different classes of rifle. The muzzle energy is not as sensitive to velocity increases at lower bullet weights 150gr vs. 500gr, but hopefully you can see the point.

 

[Frederik]

I agree that on two different calibers like you have explained the 243 and .30 cal but on the same caliber 500gr bullet .458 @ 2100 fps will penetrate enough to almost exit on buffalo same with 500gr .458 @ 2400fps with more rapid expansion making it slow down faster but also probarbly stuck under the skin of the buffalo of the opposite side.

I probarbly shouldnt have used the words the animasl won't feel a difference but rather that there will be same results if shot placement is correct.

So if both buffalo are shot at 50 yards top heart and double lung one at 2100fps and the other at 2400fps which one is more dead?

What I have seen and experienced though is that the faster bullets of same weight and caliber does seem to hurt the animal more on impact but still same result.

Taylor's Knock out Value is a good example a close shot with a faster bullet of same caliber will stun/shock the elephant more but he might still get up if the brain is missed. With a slower bullet it will stun/shock the elephant less if brain is missed and might not even fall over. On both scenarios you could end up with wounded elephant and that is the reason for a backup shot on downed elephant with brain shots.

 

[IvW]

Try the same on elephant frontal.....especially if you are slightly off centre and hit the top of the tusk socket.....you need all the straight line penetration you can get and a 458 WM with fact loads falls short....

 

[Northern Shooter]

Who makes the fastest moving factory 500 grain WinMag?

The fastest I'm seeing is Hornady at 2140 fps. Do you need to handload in order to pass the magical 2150 fps line?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Who makes the fastest moving factory 500 grain WinMag?

The fastest I'm seeing is Hornady at 2140 fps. Do you need to handload in order to pass the magical 2150 fps line?

Hornady would be the fastest.

Norma loads their ammunition to push the 500Gr monolithic solid at 2100 fps.

Nosler loads their ammunition to push the 500Gr Partition at 2100 fps

Federal loads their ammunition to push the 500Gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw at 2090 fps and the 500Gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid at ONLY 1950 fps.

 

[Inline6]

Who makes the fastest moving factory 500 grain WinMag?

The fastest I'm seeing is Hornady at 2140 fps. Do you need to handload in order to pass the magical 2150 fps line?

Why not a 450? The monos run longer than lead bullets. Your SDs will be their along with getting your velocity up. The 458WM doesn't have the case capacity. Not a big deal, it is just a factor that needs to be accounted for. The 450 monos do just that IMHO.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Wikipedia is showing two Winchester 500 grain loads (solid and partition) both moving at 2,240 fps for about 5,500 ft-lbs. Are these no longer in production?
Product codes: S458WSLSP and S458WSLS.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Wikipedia is showing two Winchester 500 grain loads (solid and partition) both moving at 2,240 fps for about 5,500 ft-lbs. Are these no longer in production?
Product codes: S458WSLSP and S458WSLS.

Gone in 2011.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Chronograph those factory 458 WM rounds and you'll see they're <2,100 actual fps. lol Read what Kevin Robertson has to say about the 458 win mag (I traded "up" for a .416-whatev. Handloaded, ALL 416s shoot 2,450 fps or more (unecessary) using 400 gr slugs. Now, take that 458 and neck it down to 416 (Chatfield-Taylor) and it'll shoot 2,450 fps w/ >1,000 ft-lbs greater energy and a higher SD for greater penetration! 458 is ok. Just have to limit the range. It did what it was intended to do (reproduce even older, cordite-based cartridges doing 2,000ish fps.)

 

[C.W. Richter]

 

[Sarg]

I use the .458Win have done for 30yrs, mostly using what ever I was issued or given from my bosses or higher ups, later from left over clients ammo.

It has always worked for me, I have seen lots of the bullets fail & bet more have but I haven't the time to do autopsies but the animals (mostly Buffalo) are very dead all the same.

Here is a Buffalo that a 500gr solid Winchester factory load passed through from the Ass to the nose & excited, no shots were fired from head on after the client shot it with his .338 Ultra Mag with 275gr Barnes of some type, I fired a few shots through the trees & jungle as I ran after it, soon after it crashed down.

Has a .458Win though the chest also, that is the exit hole you can see in this pic.

I think I might have one of the ass end to but can't find it right now.

If you can't get it done with a .458Win I think it most likely you can't shoot Or you have never actually used one only listening to fairy tales !

Hornady box specs.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Gone in 2011.

That's too bad. I wonder why they were discontinued? Those are by far the most impressive ballistics I've seen in a
458 WM, approaching Lott ballistics.