Is the .458 Win Mag not a step up over the .416's?

[geoff rath]

Good sir I think you have answered your own question. With a perfect situation and shot the extra energy does not matter. I carry this rifle for the extraordinary situation not for the sunny days when all is well. I've got a .243 for that!
If I ever ended up with a wounded elephant or cape buffalo...I'd prefer it hit harder initially.

There's a definite difference between the 300 and 500 grain bullet. I just can't stand the fact that folks are castrating the .458WM and calling it insufficient. Every 50 fps is about 200 ft-lbs of ME in a 500 gr bullet. There is certainly a difference in a 300, 400, and 500 grain bullet. Eventually you'll get to the point of diminishing returns for everything, but by then you're obviously heavy for caliber.

What would happen if someone modernized the .416 Rigby and loaded it to 65,000psi? I think it becomes a whole new ball game and those other .416s have to start making excuses for their inferiority...save those without WBY on the case head.

Looking at the Rigby performance over the decades, do we really need to boost the operating pressure? To do so might necessitate the construction of the brass ...

 

[geoff rath]

I think most of the 416s & maybe 404-425s (have not used or seen many hunters with them) are just find & I can see have more effect on most game including Buffalo, than the .375 a little more with the .45s & much more again with the .500.

All will see you right if used properly with nice bullets for the job at hand .

Methinks bullet construction is a MAJOR factor in this discussion.

 

[Rafiki]

The original speed on nitro express I think was in 28 inch barrels. I saw a test where they were all under 2100fps. Hand loading will get you back up there but that may take a lot of work in a double.

I noticed this also, that NE's were tested with 28" barrels. I was hand loading .500 Sharps 2 1/2" to Kynoch .500 NE 3" performance; 570gr, 2150fps. Managed to do that when I noticed the 28" barrel thing; my rifle has a 25" barrel so the reality is that they were hotter loads apples to apples.

 

[Inline6]

Art Alphin was way ahead of them w/ the 338 A-Sq (precursor to the 338-378 Wby) and non-belted Excaliber (105 & 130 gr capacity), which took into consideration pressure and much higher velocities than any other 338. The Lapua and RUM are puny in comparison. His goal was to create a 1,500 yd (hunting) slayer that recoiled like a 7 mag (and he Did it!) He just didn't have Remington/DuPont's capacity for marketing millions of pieces of black plastic junk at Walmart. He may have had a military angle in-mind and many custom Excaliburs have been manufactured more recently. The guns sold for $3,300 c. '90s. 300 gr slugs can be shot at 3,000 fps and 200-250s 3,500. I have separated case necks on hot days with max handloads, but have since backed off to <100 gr loads at 3,250ish fps. That's plenty w/ the excellent 338 ballistic, and still much better than the Lapua. It's exceedingly more powerful than the 375 HH with hot handloads, and much better BC/SD for long shots and even better penetration. It'd work just fine on buffalo in countries that regulate based upon energy, not bullet diameter.

View attachment 528277View attachment 528280

Interesting read about the round (338 Excalibur).

My loads for my 338LM were 285s @ 2915fps.

Always like to read up on what's out there.

 

[Frederik]

Methinks bullet construction is a MAJOR factor in this discussion.

100% with you there we never have a fixed speed on impact velocities.
Too slow bullet might not expand too fast and bullet expands to quickly and not enough penetration.

There is no such thing as a perfect bullet some come close but all have failed somewhere down the line.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Interesting read about the round (338 Excalibur).

My loads for my 338LM were 285s @ 2915fps.

Always like to read up on what's out there.

I have the newer 265 and 285ish LRXs that I really want to test out when work and work at the farm calm down a bit! They made a good thing better.

 

[geoff rath]

Norma list heavier bullets in most of their D/G ammunition: 416 Rigby and 404 Jeffery- 450 gr Woodleigh. 458 Win Mag (and Lott?) quote 550 grains projies. Do they know something we don't?

 

[Forrest Halley]

Norma list heavier bullets in most of their D/G ammunition: 416 Rigby and 404 Jeffery- 450 gr Woodleigh. 458 Win Mag (and Lott?) quote 550 grains projies. Do they know something we don't?

Someone...Dr. Kevin Robertson. He consulted on their PH line of ammunition IIRC.
Grains/MV fps/ME ft-lbs
550/2250/6182
550/2200/5910
550/2150/5645
550/2100/5385 Soft point Norma African PH
500/2400/6394
500/2350/6131
500/2300/5873 Solid Norma African PH
500/2250/5620
500/2200/5373
500/2150/5132
500/2100/4896
500/2050/4665

 

[Northern Shooter]

So now that I grabbed a .458, what factory ammo does everyone recommend? Especially for Elk/Moose sized game?

All I'm seeing in stock here are Hornadys DGS and DGX 500 grain.

Norma Barnes solids 500 grain.

And Federals Bonded Bear Claw and Solids 500 grain.

So it doesn't look like any sub 500 grain offerings are availible here at the moment for factory ammo.

 

[Flewis]

Ammoseek had some 400s.

 

[Rafiki]

So now that I grabbed a .458, what factory ammo does everyone recommend? Especially for Elk/Moose sized game?

How about a 500 NE, that should so the trick.

 

[Northern Shooter]

How about a 500 NE, that should so the trick.

I'm sure it would, but the double I have in mind is a 470NE.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I have an opportunity to buy a .458 Win Mag rifle for a pretty good deal. As someone who has been on the hunt for a .416, I looked into the ballistics of each and it actually looks like the .416's are putting out more energy than the .458?

Am I missing something here? I'm aware that the 458 Lott steps up both the velocity and energy over the Win Mag but I'm surprised to see that the hottest (factory) .458 Win Mag loads are producing a hair over 5,000 lb-ft while 416's are producing upwards of 5,200lb-ft with a smaller, 400 grain bullet.

I was always under the impression that by jumping from .416 to .458 there would be a notable increase in energy and felt recoil.

The .458 Win Mag has stopped plenty of buffalo and elephants. I've killed two buffalo bulls with mine. Modern hand loads will.send a 500 grain bullet out at a little over 2150 fps. At that velocity a solid bullet will pass through a buffalo from any angle. They have been known to completely pass through the skull of a bull elephant with a brain shot, or at least that's what my PH told me. Caliber and bullet weight matter as much as velocity.

 

[Forrest Halley]

So now that I grabbed a .458, what factory ammo does everyone recommend? Especially for Elk/Moose sized game?

All I'm seeing in stock here are Hornadys DGS and DGX 500 grain.

Norma Barnes solids 500 grain.

And Federals Bonded Bear Claw and Solids 500 grain.

So it doesn't look like any sub 500 grain offerings are availible here at the moment for factory ammo.

I'd shoot the Hornady DGX.

It's complete bullshit that they got rid of the interbond and Federal got rid of the fusion. Now we're stuck shooting expensive ammunition for hunts where a big rifle might just be fun.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Norma list heavier bullets in most of their D/G ammunition: 416 Rigby and 404 Jeffery- 450 gr Woodleigh. 458 Win Mag (and Lott?) quote 550 grains projies. Do they know something we don't?

Yes, they do, and Kevin Robertson points it out in his books! Is Woodleigh back on its feet to provide those good slugs?? "the .375 using 350 grain Woodleigh FMJs, performs just like a .416" and so-on! Highest SD works wonders (esp. on DG.) I believe the Norma PH series ammo for all 3 calibers (Robertson had a hand in its design) focuses on what you say. My son dropped a 42" buff in its tracks with a frontal shot and Norma PH .375 350 gr ammo, just prior to covid (in the last 15 min of shooting light, on the last day of the safari!) There were NO complaints!!!

 

[Northern Shooter]

Well my Model 70 .458 WinMag arrived today and I have to say, it feels night and day lighter than my CZ550 375H&H despite them only being 0.3lb difference in weight.

The recoil on this should be interesting considering how light it feels. Definitely feels quite "handy" though looking forward to taking it out.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Now that I've got the rifle, what are some quality factory ammo choices to experiment with before I start reloading?

I'm seeing Barnes 450 grain and Hornady 500 grain DGX in stock near me. Can't seem to find any 350 or 400 grain options.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Now that I've got the rifle, what are some quality factory ammo choices to experiment with before I start reloading?

I'm seeing Barnes 450 grain and Hornady 500 grain DGX in stock near me. Can't seem to find any 350 or 400 grain options.

Buy a box of each and shoot them. Then settle on the 450gr. Barnes TSX. LOL

 

[Forrest Halley]

Now that I've got the rifle, what are some quality factory ammo choices to experiment with before I start reloading?

I'm seeing Barnes 450 grain and Hornady 500 grain DGX in stock near me. Can't seem to find any 350 or 400 grain options.

Shoot the DGX for giggles and the Barnes for glory.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Buy a box of each and shoot them. Then settle on the 450gr. Barnes TSX. LOL

That's what I plan on doing. These boxes of ammo cost more than some of my firearms haha.