Is the .458 Win Mag not a step up over the .416's?

[Sarg]

That's too bad. I wonder why they were discontinued? Those are by far the most impressive ballistics I've seen in a
458 WM, approaching Lott ballistics.

I suspect they were a bit too hot, must have special powder for those specs the Hornady 500gr at 2140fps is plenty & gets your attention for sure, a lot seems to depend on the throating/chambering of your .458Win a lot of custom or Gunsmith built rifles (in general) in .458Win can give trouble but again it is worse in the .500Jeff & .505's built by ordinary guys/gunsmiths !

Some of our work guns were terrible & put together by idiots !!

 

[Northern Shooter]

I suspect they were a bit too hot, must have special powder for those specs the Hornady 500gr at 2140fps is plenty & gets your attention for sure, a lot seems to depend on the throating/chambering of your .458Win a lot of custom or Gunsmith built rifles (in general) in .458Win can give trouble but again it is worse in the .500Jeff & .505's built by ordinary guys/gunsmiths !

Some of our work guns were terrible & put together by idiots !!

I'm moreso curious why Winchester discontinued producing .458 in general since it is one of their creations.

I'm sure the Hornady's will be more than enough for all game and satisfying the recoil bug.

 

[Sarg]

I'm moreso curious why Winchester discontinued producing .458 in general since it is one of their creations.

I'm sure the Hornady's will be more than enough for all game and satisfying the recoil bug.

Yes That is a good question but I suppose the Winchester of today is not the Winchester of Old ?

 

[steve white]

Jim Carmicheal once wrote: "When someone paws my lapels and breathlessly tells me of a narrow escape with a buffalo, my first question is 'were you using a 375 H&H magnum?'" (the gist, anyway) The reason I have few such tales to tell is that I have for years been using a 458 Winchester Magnum."

He was expressing his opinion that that was the difference between a 300 and a 500 gr. bullet on buff. To a lesser extent, I think the argument still holds for a 416 vs 458.

 

[Slider]

Yes

 

[Sarg]

I think most of the 416s & maybe 404-425s (have not used or seen many hunters with them) are just find & I can see have more effect on most game including Buffalo, than the .375 a little more with the .45s & much more again with the .500.

All will see you right if used properly with nice bullets for the job at hand .

 

[Badboymelvin]

People who hate the .458 will always hate the .458.
They'll bring up horror stories from 50 years ago and will ignore other people's successful experiences with it.

I haven't got a problem with that, people can like and dislike what they want.
What l do have a bit of a problem with is when a new buyer who owns .458 is told that they MUST rechamber to 458 LOTT or sell it for a .416 ... I don't believe that has to be the case.

If all you're after is to launch a 480-500 at 2150fps the .458 will do that - and with a variety of powders.
I've done it and l'm a Nurse, not a PH or a gun-writer or a professional shooter.

l got an EASY and l mean EASY 2150fps with the 480gn Woodleigh SP
l reached 2080fps with the 550gn Woodleigh SP
l achieved 2300fps with the Woodleigh Hydro

All these loads were chronographed by me and that was a tough day in the office let me tell you!

So maybe before you sell or rechamber your .458, have a play with it. You might be pleasantly surprised and find you may already have enough gun...

Russ

 

[SRvet]

My BRNO 602 launches the 450 grain TTSX at 2320fps when loaded long. I haven’t tried the 500gr TSX. Now on Buffalo and soft skinned game I doubt the difference in bullet weight would make any tangible difference provided bullet placement is reasonable. With a good 450 grain flat point monolithic solid I feel comfortable that the same 2320fps will be sufficient for frontal or side brain or even heart shots on elephant. If anyone feels otherwise I am all ears!

 

[ldmay375]

and operating/chamber pressure. I think the 458 runs around the 58,000 - 60,000 CUP mark, the Ruger, close to 64,000. Meanwhile, the R
igby is a pussycat, 45,000 max?

SAAMI psi for:
375 H&H = 62,000
375 Ruger = 62,000

416 Rigby = 52,000 / CIP = 47,137 psi
416 Remington = 65,000
416 Ruger = 62,000

458 Winchester = 60,000
458 Lott = 62,500

 

[Forrest Halley]

I agree that on two different calibers like you have explained the 243 and .30 cal but on the same caliber 500gr bullet .458 @ 2100 fps will penetrate enough to almost exit on buffalo same with 500gr .458 @ 2400fps with more rapid expansion making it slow down faster but also probarbly stuck under the skin of the buffalo of the opposite side.

I probarbly shouldnt have used the words the animasl won't feel a difference but rather that there will be same results if shot placement is correct.

So if both buffalo are shot at 50 yards top heart and double lung one at 2100fps and the other at 2400fps which one is more dead?

What I have seen and experienced though is that the faster bullets of same weight and caliber does seem to hurt the animal more on impact but still same result.

Taylor's Knock out Value is a good example a close shot with a faster bullet of same caliber will stun/shock the elephant more but he might still get up if the brain is missed. With a slower bullet it will stun/shock the elephant less if brain is missed and might not even fall over. On both scenarios you could end up with wounded elephant and that is the reason for a backup shot on downed elephant with brain shots.

Good sir I think you have answered your own question. With a perfect situation and shot the extra energy does not matter. I carry this rifle for the extraordinary situation not for the sunny days when all is well. I've got a .243 for that!
If I ever ended up with a wounded elephant or cape buffalo...I'd prefer it hit harder initially.

Jim Carmicheal once wrote: "When someone paws my lapels and breathlessly tells me of a narrow escape with a buffalo, my first question is 'were you using a 375 H&H magnum?'" (the gist, anyway) The reason I have few such tales to tell is that I have for years been using a 458 Winchester Magnum."

He was expressing his opinion that that was the difference between a 300 and a 500 gr. bullet on buff. To a lesser extent, I think the argument still holds for a 416 vs 458.

There's a definite difference between the 300 and 500 grain bullet. I just can't stand the fact that folks are castrating the .458WM and calling it insufficient. Every 50 fps is about 200 ft-lbs of ME in a 500 gr bullet. There is certainly a difference in a 300, 400, and 500 grain bullet. Eventually you'll get to the point of diminishing returns for everything, but by then you're obviously heavy for caliber.

SAAMI psi for:
375 H&H = 62,000
375 Ruger = 62,000

416 Rigby = 52,000 / CIP = 47,137 psi
416 Remington = 65,000
416 Ruger = 62,000

458 Winchester = 60,000
458 Lott = 62,500

What would happen if someone modernized the .416 Rigby and loaded it to 65,000psi? I think it becomes a whole new ball game and those other .416s have to start making excuses for their inferiority...save those without WBY on the case head.

 

[Northern Shooter]

People who hate the .458 will always hate the .458.
They'll bring up horror stories from 50 years ago and will ignore other people's successful experiences with it.

I haven't got a problem with that, people can like and dislike what they want.
What l do have a bit of a problem with is when a new buyer who owns .458 is told that they MUST rechamber to 458 LOTT or sell it for a .416 ... I don't believe that has to be the case.

If all you're after is to launch a 480-500 at 2150fps the .458 will do that - and with a variety of powders.
I've done it and l'm a Nurse, not a PH or a gun-writer or a professional shooter.

l got an EASY and l mean EASY 2150fps with the 480gn Woodleigh SP
l reached 2080fps with the 550gn Woodleigh SP
l achieved 2300fps with the Woodleigh Hydro

All these loads were chronographed by me and that was a tough day in the office let me tell you!

So maybe before you sell or rechamber your .458, have a play with it. You might be pleasantly surprised and find you may already have enough gun...

Russ

I haven't even shot my .458 yet but I don't currently have any plans to go bigger (500, 505 etc.) or rechamber it to .458 Lott. As someone who will likely never hunt elephant this gun is more of a toy that I hope to use here on home on Moose/Bear/Bison and maybe one day Cape Buffalo.

Next on my list is a 416 of some sort followed by a double in .470. After that I'll be done...until the next gun.

 

[TOBY458]

SAAMI psi for:
375 H&H = 62,000
375 Ruger = 62,000

416 Rigby = 52,000 / CIP = 47,137 psi
416 Remington = 65,000
416 Ruger = 62,000

458 Winchester = 60,000
458 Lott = 62,500

Careful. Some folks here don't like the truth. They like to say how the 458 Win/Lott and 416 Rem are high pressure rounds, and must be avoided for that reason. But never mention the 375 H&H in the same vein. The only negative that the 416 Rem has going for it is the fact that it doesn't have as much taper in the cartridge case as some of the others. Which...in theory, could cause the case to get stuck in the chamber more easily if it was overloaded to above safe working pressures. With good loading practices, achieving velocities of 2350 to 2400fps, I doubt that would ever be an issue though. Especially with today's temperature insensitive powders.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I use the .458Win have done for 30yrs, mostly using what ever I was issued or given from my bosses or higher ups, later from left over clients ammo.

It has always worked for me, I have seen lots of the bullets fail & bet more have but I haven't the time to do autopsies but the animals (mostly Buffalo) are very dead all the same.

Here is a Buffalo that a 500gr solid Winchester factory load passed through from the Ass to the nose & excited, no shots were fired from head on after the client shot it with his .338 Ultra Mag with 275gr Barnes of some type, I fired a few shots through the trees & jungle as I ran after it, soon after it crashed down.

Has a .458Win though the chest also, that is the exit hole you can see in this pic.

View attachment 528121
View attachment 528122

I think I might have one of the ass end to but can't find it right now.

If you can't get it done with a .458Win I think it most likely you can't shoot Or you have never actually used one only listening to fairy tales !

Hornady box specs.

View attachment 528125

i chronographed everything i had for the old 458. those Hdy clocked in at 2090 fps in a 24.5" bbl. the Federal Fusion 500s were right around 2,150, shot exceptionally well (1" mushroom, bullet completely in-tact after taking out of far shoulder on Son's buffalo taken at about 20 yards. Dead right there at that range. He liked my 375 better (longer range for PG, big bear, moose) and I my 416 so 'got rid of it. Sometimes I think i should've kept it, but I have my rules (want a new one? get rid of an old one.) lol silly rules

 

[Inline6]

i chronographed everything i had for the old 458. those Hdy clocked in at 2090 fps in a 24.5" bbl. the Federal Fusion 500s were right around 2,150, shot exceptionally well (1" mushroom, bullet completely in-tact after taking out of far shoulder on Son's buffalo taken at about 20 yards. Dead right there at that range. He liked my 375 better (longer range for PG, big bear, moose) and I my 416 so 'got rid of it. Sometimes I think i should've kept it, but I have my rules (want a new one? get rid of an old one.) lol silly rules

Rules are made to be broken! Hahaha

 

[C.W. Richter]

Careful. Some folks here don't like the truth. They like to say how the 458 Win/Lott and 416 Rem are high pressure rounds, and must be avoided for that reason. But never mention the 375 H&H in the same vein. The only negative that the 416 Rem has going for it is the fact that it doesn't have as much taper in the cartridge case as some of the others. Which...in theory, could cause the case to get stuck in the chamber more easily if it was overloaded to above safe working pressures. With good loading practices, achieving velocities of 2350 to 2400fps, I doubt that would ever be an issue though. Especially with today's temperature insensitive powders.

i know the 416 Taylor is high-pressure-it's how one gets the 2,450+ fps out of the smaller 458 case.

Max Avg Pressure:​

65,000 psi

It gives quite the shove w/ hot handloads! But, super accurate. I may test out some 2,350-2,400 fps loads to see if any noticeable difference in recoil. 'Went for the higher Vs not just for DG, but if the "Kudu of a lifetime" et. al. presented itself at 250 yds. The high SD of the 375 slugs (longer/smaller diam per same mass) is why it works (penetrates) so well (not to mention a better option for PG targets of opportunity). It's so much more of a pleasure to shoot than most 416 and 458 DG loads. Gun weight, surface area of butt is critical. Typically, the larger case of any given caliber exhibits the least amount of pressure (why they say the Rigby is a pleasure to shoot using factory cartridges.) And SAAMI is max average, not necessarily the number factory cartridges are operating at (many lower.) Many Rigby DG handloads are reported in the 42,000-43,000 psi range.

SAAMI psi for:
375 H&H = 62,000
375 Ruger = 62,000

416 Rigby = 52,000 / CIP = 47,137 psi
416 Remington = 65,000
416 Ruger = 62,000

458 Winchester = 60,000
458 Lott = 62,500

 

[CoElkHunter]

Good sir I think you have answered your own question. With a perfect situation and shot the extra energy does not matter. I carry this rifle for the extraordinary situation not for the sunny days when all is well. I've got a .243 for that!
If I ever ended up with a wounded elephant or cape buffalo...I'd prefer it hit harder initially.

There's a definite difference between the 300 and 500 grain bullet. I just can't stand the fact that folks are castrating the .458WM and calling it insufficient. Every 50 fps is about 200 ft-lbs of ME in a 500 gr bullet. There is certainly a difference in a 300, 400, and 500 grain bullet. Eventually you'll get to the point of diminishing returns for everything, but by then you're obviously heavy for caliber.

What would happen if someone modernized the .416 Rigby and loaded it to 65,000psi? I think it becomes a whole new ball game and those other .416s have to start making excuses for their inferiority...save those without WBY on the case head.

From Wikipedia, the original case for the military .338 Lapua sniper round was to be based on the .416 Rigby case. They found the thickness of the case sidewall just forward of the web would not support increased (60+psi) pressure. During ignition, the cartridge's base, just forward of the bolt face, is not supported. The current reinforced Lapua case from the Rigby parent case was a joint venture by Sako and British firm Accuracy International along with Lapua.

 

[Inline6]

From Wikipedia, the original case for the military .338 Lapua sniper round was to be based on the .416 Rigby case. They found the thickness of the case sidewall just forward of the web would not support increased (60+psi) pressure. During ignition, the cartridge's base, just forward of the bolt face, is not supported. The current reinforced Lapua case from the Rigby parent case was a joint venture by Sako and British firm Accuracy International along with Lapua.

Had 338LM in both makes listed, both were hammers.

 

[sgt_zim]

It's a certainty that any animal you shoot with any 416 or a 458 wm won't be able to tell the difference. If you really want a 416, then keep looking. I waited almost 10 years to find the 404J I wanted.

 

[C.W. Richter]

From Wikipedia, the original case for the military .338 Lapua sniper round was to be based on the .416 Rigby case. They found the thickness of the case sidewall just forward of the web would not support increased (60+psi) pressure. During ignition, the cartridge's base, just forward of the bolt face, is not supported. The current reinforced Lapua case from the Rigby parent case was a joint venture by Sako and British firm Accuracy International along with Lapua.

Art Alphin was way ahead of them w/ the 338 A-Sq (precursor to the 338-378 Wby) and non-belted Excaliber (105 & 130 gr capacity), which took into consideration pressure and much higher velocities than any other 338. The Lapua and RUM are puny in comparison. His goal was to create a 1,500 yd (hunting) slayer that recoiled like a 7 mag (and he Did it!) He just didn't have Remington/DuPont's capacity for marketing millions of pieces of black plastic junk at Walmart. He may have had a military angle in-mind and many custom Excaliburs have been manufactured more recently. The guns sold for $3,300 c. '90s. 300 gr slugs can be shot at 3,000 fps and 200-250s 3,500. I have separated case necks on hot days with max handloads, but have since backed off to <100 gr loads at 3,250ish fps. That's plenty w/ the excellent 338 ballistic, and still much better than the Lapua. It's exceedingly more powerful than the 375 HH with hot handloads, and much better BC/SD for long shots and even better penetration. It'd work just fine on buffalo in countries that regulate based upon energy, not bullet diameter.

 

[Forrest Halley]

From Wikipedia, the original case for the military .338 Lapua sniper round was to be based on the .416 Rigby case. They found the thickness of the case sidewall just forward of the web would not support increased (60+psi) pressure. During ignition, the cartridge's base, just forward of the bolt face, is not supported. The current reinforced Lapua case from the Rigby parent case was a joint venture by Sako and British firm Accuracy International along with Lapua.

You're a good guy to know...