If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[revturbo9967]

Better be careful Sir, next segment of posts will be "hunters" telling you how they feel, think or say your some one bad for using a legal method they do not agree with, (dogs).

This thread proves we really don't need anti hunters. There are enough "hunters' calling each other out, no wonder our passion, lifestyle and sport is being greatly reduced. Saddens me.

MB

Except CBL hunting is not a method of hunting, like hunting with dogs, or with a bow. It’s an animal, raised from birth to be released behind a fence to be hunted. All for a profit.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Better be careful Sir, next segment of posts will be "hunters" telling you how they feel, think or say your some one bad for using a legal method they do not agree with, (dogs).

This thread proves we really don't need anti hunters. There are enough "hunters' calling each other out, no wonder our passion, lifestyle and sport is being greatly reduced. Saddens me.

MB

On the flip side the whole argument of “just let me do whatever I want as long as it’s legal” in tandem with “how dare you criticize me” mentality is pretty millennial in its thinking don’t you think? Ethics are actually worth discussing. It’s not as simple as blondes versus brunettes

 

[375Fox]

This thread proves we really don't need anti hunters. There are enough "hunters' calling each other out, no wonder our passion, lifestyle and sport is being greatly reduced. Saddens me.

What saddens me is the amount of hunters willing to disregard the future because this practice is cheap. Participation in CBL is giving the anti’s endless ammunition to disparage hunters and conservation efforts from hunting.

 

[SDPlinker]

What saddens me is the amount of hunters willing to disregard the future because this practice is cheap. Participation in CBL is giving the anti’s endless ammunition to disparage hunters and conservation efforts from hunting.

Cheap isn't good and good isn't cheap!

 

[Canada]

1st The whole point to DG hunting is to get close, most rifle hunters want to be less than 50. Most probably want to be in that 35 yard range.

2nd The same can be said for rifle hunters too. The PHs are there to sort out the shit show when things go bad. Again even with a rifle it is hunting not killing. People make bad shots with rifles more than they do with bow (statically more rifle hunters).

Your cowardly comment is painting a whole hunting community with a brush that is hits on all hunters and is in poor taste. You don't have to hunt with a bow, you do have to like, post like your just shows how easy it is to divide us as hunters.

To be a PH is not an easy task, they spend a lot of time away from their family to make out adventures a reality. Have to put up with some people they would otherwise not give the time of day to. I'm sure some take on work they don't feel 100% confident in the client to make the right decision. That said most I have met won't allow a situation to start if they know it is FUBAR before it starts. They do all this as a professional.

For 25 years I was friend and business partner with PH all over the world. That came from my profession. I hunted not too much but had my share of it. So I'm quite familiar with their business and their responsibility towards their clients.

I didn't criticize any of them in my post, I just mentioned, that a hunter, who wants to bow hunt and experience the thrill of it, also must accept the enhanced risk that comes with it, and not only feel safe by the presence of the PH, knowing, that this guy will keep his ass clear if anything that's borne in bow hunting, goes awry.

And I didn't criticize the bow hunting in general.

 

[Inline6]

For 25 years I was friend and business partner with PH all over the world. That came from my profession. I hunted not too much but had my share of it. So I'm quite familiar with their business and their responsibility towards their clients.

I didn't criticize any of them in my post, I just mentioned, that a hunter, who wants to bow hunt and experience the thrill of it, also must accept the enhanced risk that comes with it, and not only feel safe by the presence of the PH, knowing, that this guy will keep his ass clear if anything that's borne in bow hunting, goes awry.

And I didn't criticize the bow hunting in general

That's, what you have to accept, but now cowardly wait for the rescue by the PH .....

Maybe you consider this a compliment... so is this how you view everyone who is saved by a PH?

 

[WAB]

Except CBL hunting is not a method of hunting, like hunting with dogs, or with a bow. It’s an animal, raised from birth to be released behind a fence to be hunted. All for a profit.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in favor of what happened in this video, but is there anything wrong with raising an animal with the intent to kill it for a profit? I kinda grew up doing that, as did a lot of folks on this forum.

 

[375Fox]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in favor of what happened in this video, but is there anything wrong with raising an animal with the intent to kill it for a profit? I kinda grew up doing that, as did a lot of folks on this forum.

Did you call it hunting or farming growing up? Call this lion farming and lion harvesting to distance it from hunting and my objection generally goes away.

 

[revturbo9967]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not in favor of what happened in this video, but is there anything wrong with raising an animal with the intent to kill it for a profit? I kinda grew up doing that, as did a lot of folks on this forum.

Raising livestock for farming purposes is not what I would group in with my comment (if you mean livestock). Farming for food, and making a profit off of that is a completely different situation as those animal are supposed to be killed humanely, not hunted for sport. I really have no argument in this debate as I’ve never hunted in Africa, but I have very mixed feelings on game farming. Releasing animals raised on a farm onto a large property where it is breeding, passing genetics , and living on its own without human intervention is no where near the same as a released lion who can not survive on a property without human help, or animals to kill. I can imagine a property owner will not want a lion floating around for a few months or more killing game to make it more sporting. I feel the same way about sable or croc hunts where the animal was released very soon before the hunter arrived, and it’s the only one of that species to be hunted on that property. If CBL were released onto properties to self sustain and reproduce and then hunted, I would have a completely different perspective I think.

 

[Canada]

Maybe you consider this a compliment... so is this how you view everyone who is saved by a PH?

No, it depends on the situation. When I have to go so close to a dangerous animal, just for the thrill of it, then I can not do this only because I know, there's always someone whose responsibility is, to save me. In such a case: do it right at the first moment - or face the consequences. You want to hunt (this way), not the PH. And always keep in mind: your "boldness" (for whatever reason) doesn't put only you in serious danger. The PH hasn't asked for the opportunity to save you (and, in the end, himself, too).

 

[Canada]

Raising livestock for farming purposes is not what I would group in with my comment (if you mean livestock). Farming for food, and making a profit off of that is a completely different situation as those animal are supposed to be killed humanely, not hunted for sport. I really have no argument in this debate as I’ve never hunted in Africa, but I have very mixed feelings on game farming. Releasing animals raised on a farm onto a large property where it is breeding, passing genetics , and living on its own without human intervention is no where near the same as a released lion who can not survive on a property without human help, or animals to kill. I can imagine a property owner will not want a lion floating around for a few months or more killing game to make it more sporting. I feel the same way about sable or croc hunts where the animal was released very soon before the hunter arrived, and it’s the only one of that species to be hunted on that property. If CBL were released onto properties to self sustain and reproduce and then hunted, I would have a completely different perspective I think.

I've already seen this firsthand in Namibia in the 80's. Old lions, carried from elsewhere, were kept in cages, starving, and released only a few hours before the "hunter" arrived. Then he was told, he's lucky, they just tracked an old, big lion with much of a mane. Most likely, the animal just recently killed game and might keep sitting on the spot. But the fact was, that the lion was too old and too weak to move on anyway, and had no knowledge of the area he was in.

I worked in a business closely related to Big Game Hunting worldwide for 25 years, and I know most of the tricks. But is it a trick, if the client just wants to get his trophy and doesn't care where it comes from and how to get it ?

More likely, it's a lack of hunting ethics on the part of the client.

 

[WAB]

Raising livestock for farming purposes is not what I would group in with my comment (if you mean livestock). Farming for food, and making a profit off of that is a completely different situation as those animal are supposed to be killed humanely, not hunted for sport. I really have no argument in this debate as I’ve never hunted in Africa, but I have very mixed feelings on game farming. Releasing animals raised on a farm onto a large property where it is breeding, passing genetics , and living on its own without human intervention is no where near the same as a released lion who can not survive on a property without human help, or animals to kill. I can imagine a property owner will not want a lion floating around for a few months or more killing game to make it more sporting. I feel the same way about sable or croc hunts where the animal was released very soon before the hunter arrived, and it’s the only one of that species to be hunted on that property. If CBL were released onto properties to self sustain and reproduce and then hunted, I would have a completely different perspective I think.

I’m really trying to draw out the difference between morals and ethics. I have no problem if there is a market for lion bones, to have lions raised and harvested for this purpose. To me there is nothing amoral about raising an animal for profit, any animal.

Ethics come in to play with how it is done. That is highly personal. I am sure that there is some set of circumstances that would satisfy most ethical concerns, say a million acres and a five year release to be absolutely ridiculous. The problem comes when we start drawing lines. We know what happened in this video is ridiculous, but should we assume that No CBL harvest presents an ethical harvest opportunity?

 

[revturbo9967]

We know what happened in this video is ridiculous, but should we assume that No CBL harvest presents an ethical harvest opportunity?

I guess the issue I have is I have never seen evidence of an ethical harvest of a CBL. I’ve seen lots of videos like the one the OP posted but not one showing days of tracking and missed opportunities with multiple lions being tracked. If I saw that representation, I would probably have a different opinion. All that said, I just have an opinion based off of reading and watching and not experience, so it means a whole lot of nothing on here.

 

[MarkB]

I sure am glad the moral, ethical and they are right crowd are NOT making the worlds hunting rules. The flavour of the day would eliminate most hunting. Like I said who needs the antis, you guys just do not get it.

Ask any anti if CBL, ranched antelope, released deer, farm feeder camera watched species hunting, fly in moose hunting, mountain sheep hunting, or as some state, hunting a 6 yr + lion in a wild, massive areas that cost yearly wages for normal people if it is moral, ethical or should be immediately stopped? I am fairly certain of the answer. Sounds like the pick and choosers here.

Those who pick and choose what should be done/allowed based on their morals are hurting hunting, same as the antis posting the weekly, monthly style, type of species that's hunted. Many hunting styles, types and ways are illegal in my home country, are they moral, ethical =NOT IN CANADA. Should I then not do any where?

If something is unethical, immoral or not liked by you don't do it, but don't try and force all hunters not to do it.

I am not going to change anyone's mind. Just keep attacking what you do not agree with, within the hunting community and soon there will be no hunting. We should be united, our enemies are many.

I'm out.

MB

 

[375Fox]

Ask any anti if CBL, ranched antelope, released deer, farm feeder camera watched species hunting, fly in moose hunting, mountain sheep hunting, or as some state, hunting a 6 yr + lion in a wild, massive areas that cost yearly wages for normal people if it is moral, ethical or should be immediately stopped? I am fairly certain of the answer. Sounds like the pick and choosers here.

Those who pick and choose what should be done/allowed based on their morals are hurting hunting, same as the antis posting the weekly, monthly style, type of species that's hunted. Many hunting styles, types and ways are illegal in my home country, are they moral, ethical =NOT IN CANADA. Should I then not do any where?

If something is unethical, immoral or not liked by you don't do it, but don't try and force all hunters not to do it.

I am not going to change anyone's mind. Just keep attacking what you do not agree with, within the hunting community and soon there will be no hunting. We should be united, our enemies are many.

I'm out.

MB

How about asking a non-hunter if they see a difference? I see no faster way to create an anti than CBL.

 

[revturbo9967]

I sure am glad the moral, ethical and they are right crowd are NOT making the worlds hunting rules. The flavour of the day would eliminate most hunting. Like I said who needs the antis, you guys just do not get it.

Ask any anti if CBL, ranched antelope, released deer, farm feeder camera watched species hunting, fly in moose hunting, mountain sheep hunting, or as some state, hunting a 6 yr + lion in a wild, massive areas that cost yearly wages for normal people if it is moral, ethical or should be immediately stopped? I am fairly certain of the answer. Sounds like the pick and choosers here.

Those who pick and choose what should be done/allowed based on their morals are hurting hunting, same as the antis posting the weekly, monthly style, type of species that's hunted. Many hunting styles, types and ways are illegal in my home country, are they moral, ethical =NOT IN CANADA. Should I then not do any where?

If something is unethical, immoral or not liked by you don't do it, but don't try and force all hunters not to do it.

I am not going to change anyone's mind. Just keep attacking what you do not agree with, within the hunting community and soon there will be no hunting. We should be united, our enemies are many.

I'm out.

MB

Well, sooner or later SA will receive enough pressure from outside anti hunting groups to shut down CBL hunting. Those organizations would have received zero help from the hunting crowd who questioned the ethics of such practices. The practice itself is enough to convince many.

 

[LivingTheDream]

What saddens me is the amount of hunters willing to disregard the future because this practice is cheap. Participation in CBL is giving the anti’s endless ammunition to disparage hunters and conservation efforts from hunting.

I somewhat respectively disagree with this. My take is we shouldn't give into any pressure from the antis ever. Show a united front. I think farming animals has a place for example scimitar oryx, addax, black wildebeest, white rhino, etc. Seems like a slippery slope, once CBL is outlawed then what. It will obviously be something. I kind of believe that CBL has run its fundraising course (of course videos like that dont help). I will say the CBL seems like a good divide and conquer strategy, and I respect the conservation organizations for moving on from this topic and using funds to fight other battles. But as I mentioned I hope anti's keep focusing their efforts and money there.

My personal opinion, is if I was an anti, I would keep throwing fuel on the fire on the resident/non resident arguments. I think ultimately that will impact the future of hunting more than anything that happens in Africa.

I also think that you and I could sit around a campfire and discuss it for hours and be completely respectful while doing it.

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

Well, I have been holding off on giving my thoughts on CBL. Have finally decided to voice my personal opinion.
I do not condone the way that hunt was done for the camera.

I have done 1 CBL Lioness hunt. It was actually on the property in the video. I recognized the buildings, gate and trackers. The owner of the place is not in the video and I have no idea on the PHs. They were not the PHs on my hunt. That property is large, with only perimeter fences and a fence around lodge. There are buffalo and rhino on property also. We rode and tracked for 3 days before I got shot at lioness. At the time I was told there were 4 male and 7 female on property. The lioness I took we tracked her to a Springbok kill she was feeding on.

Not all CBL hunts are canned hunts. Some of us can't afford a free range Lion hunt. I had a hunt, not a shoot. There is a YouTube video of my safari. If anyone wants to look at it. You can find it under Bos en Dal Safaris YouTube.

I am planning another CBL hunt for 2024 if it is still open.

 

[WAB]

Well, I have been holding off on giving my thoughts on CBL. Have finally decided to voice my personal opinion.
I do not condone the way that hunt was done for the camera.

I have done 1 CBL Lioness hunt. It was actually on the property in the video. I recognized the buildings, gate and trackers. The owner of the place is not in the video and I have no idea on the PHs. They were not the PHs on my hunt. That property is large, with only perimeter fences and a fence around lodge. There are buffalo and rhino on property also. We rode and tracked for 3 days before I got shot at lioness. At the time I was told there were 4 male and 7 female on property. The lioness I took we tracked her to a Springbok kill she was feeding on.

Not all CBL hunts are canned hunts. Some of us can't afford a free range Lion hunt. I had a hunt, not a shoot. There is a YouTube video of my safari. If anyone wants to look at it. You can find it under Bos en Dal Safaris YouTube.

I am planning another CBL hunt for 2024 if it is still open.

Thank you for sharing this Mark. It sounds like your experience was very different from what folks are taking exception to. It’s good to know that that type of experience exists for those who want to pursue it.

 

[LivingTheDream]

Well, I have been holding off on giving my thoughts on CBL. Have finally decided to voice my personal opinion.
I do not condone the way that hunt was done for the camera.

I have done 1 CBL Lioness hunt. It was actually on the property in the video. I recognized the buildings, gate and trackers. The owner of the place is not in the video and I have no idea on the PHs. They were not the PHs on my hunt. That property is large, with only perimeter fences and a fence around lodge. There are buffalo and rhino on property also. We rode and tracked for 3 days before I got shot at lioness. At the time I was told there were 4 male and 7 female on property. The lioness I took we tracked her to a Springbok kill she was feeding on.

Not all CBL hunts are canned hunts. Some of us can't afford a free range Lion hunt. I had a hunt, not a shoot. There is a YouTube video of my safari. If anyone wants to look at it. You can find it under Bos en Dal Safaris YouTube.

I am planning another CBL hunt for 2024 if it is still open.

Mark, I agree with you, it can be a hunt!