If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[BSO Dave]

Of course, animals do not generally fall over immediately when you make a heart/lung shot with a rifle either, but it is certainly easier break them down with the first shot. If they do run towards you whether in a charge or by bad luck, u u can stop them with a rifle, something you cannot do with any archery tackle.
As I've already written, hunting dangerous game with any weapon has inherent danger, but if you poke a dangerous anou shouldn't have to depend on someone else to save everybody's collective ass while you can only stand there hoping it comes out alright.

I am fairly certain that I have understood everything you have said.. I just don't agree with it.. In direct response to your specific statements above, I would repeat what I have already posted previously to another individual that made some utterly ridiculous assumptions about bowhunting DG:

Any ethical, and responsible bowhunter pursuing DG must accept that a rifle back-up might be necessary to fend off a charge or to dispatch a wounded animal that cannot ethically be shot again with an arrow... It's part of the deal that everyone in the hunting party must acknowledge and agree upon.. To assert that reliance on the PH or others for a potential follow-up shot with a rifle to "save everybody's collective asses" is somehow irresponsible on the bowhunter's part is both silly and contradictory to the pretext of DG hunting itself..

Please explain to me how it is different in having the PH "save your ass" with a follow-up shot if you are hunting with a rifle versus a bow? If a wounded animal charges, do you seriously think that the PH is going to wait for you to take another shot to put the animal down because you have a rifle in your hand rather than a bow? The answer is of course not.. You are at a point the hunt where safety of everyone involved is the #1 priority.. He, along with anyone else who has a rifle, is going to shoot as many items as necessary to put the animal down, and that is the pretext that takes the mode of weapon out of the equation..

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I am fairly certain that I have understood everything you have said.. I just don't agree with it.. In direct response to your specific statements above, I would repeat what I have already posted previously to another individual that made some utterly ridiculous assumptions about bowhunting DG:

Any ethical, and responsible bowhunter pursuing DG must accept that a rifle back-up might be necessary to fend off a charge or to dispatch a wounded animal that cannot ethically be shot again with an arrow... It's part of the deal that everyone in the hunting party must acknowledge and agree upon.. To assert that reliance on the PH or others for a potential follow-up shot with a rifle to "save everybody's collective asses" is somehow irresponsible on the bowhunter's part is both silly and contradictory to the pretext of DG hunting itself..

Please explain to me how it is different in having the PH "save your ass" with a follow-up shot if you are hunting with a rifle versus a bow? If a wounded animal charges, do you seriously think that the PH is going to wait for you to take another shot to put the animal down because you have a rifle in your hand rather than a bow? The answer is of course not.. You are at a point the hunt where safety of everyone involved is the #1 priority.. He, along with anyone else who has a rifle, is going to shoot as many items as necessary to put the animal down, and that is the pretext that takes the mode of weapon out of the equation..

As I have already described, one time it was up to me to stop the charge when a buffalo charged the PH and his rifle malfunctioned. I could not have done it with a bow. Even with a rifle, things can happen and someone can die but the odds get better with rifles. Bow hunting dangerous game with a bow may be irresponsible, but you believe otherwise. We are not going to change each other's minds, so I am done with this.

 

[BSO Dave]

We are not going to change each other's minds, so I am done with this.

Okay. That's fine.. Just remember that you were the one who started this discussion by replying to one of my posts asserting that I hadn't explained myself clearly enough.. I believe I was clear before your reply, and I am certain I have made my position abundantly clear in my subsequent replies..

Please understand that I'm not trying to change your mind on anything.. I am trying to give anyone reading this a perspective based on personal experience from a lifetime as a bowhunter who has been fortunate enough to have hunted a lot of DG.. Your perspective has been self-admittedly based on the presumption of what can happen when bowhunting DG.. Again, no disrespect intended but, it's not really a debate if we are both not speaking from personal experiences.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Okay. That's fine.. Just remember that you were the one who started this discussion by replying to one of my posts asserting that I hadn't explained myself clearly enough.. I believe I was clear before your reply, and I am certain I have made my position abundantly clear in my subsequent replies..

Please understand that I'm not trying to change your mind on anything.. I am trying to give anyone reading this a perspective based on personal experience from a lifetime as a bowhunter who has been fortunate enough to have hunted a lot of DG.. Your perspective has been self-admittedly based on the presumption of what can happen when bowhunting DG.. Again, no disrespect intended but, it's not really a debate if we are both not speaking from personal experiences.

I've never jumped of of a high bridge either, that doesn't mean I don't know that it's a bad idea.

 

[BSO Dave]

I've never jumped of of a high bridge either, that doesn't mean I don't know that it's a bad idea

It's only a bad idea for someone who has no experience jumping from bridges.. For someone with a lifetime of experience jumping off of bridges and methodically learning from and building upon those experiences, jumping off a high bridge is really quite a reasonable feat for them..

 

[archer36]

It's only a bad idea for someone who has no experience jumping from bridges.. For someone with a lifetime of experience jumping off of bridges and methodically learning from and building upon those experiences, jumping off a high bridge is really quite a reasonable feat for them..

So how high is a "high" bridge?

 

[BSO Dave]

So how high is a "high" bridge?

That's a great question, and th answer is that it depends on the situation and the individual(s) involved..

Using the "high bridge" metaphor as it would apply to DG hunting, the bridge is prettty high, and I will be the first to admit that hunting DG is not for eveyone regardless of the weapon.. It's serious endeavor for all involved.. Poor decicions made by hunter and PH/Guide alike occur far too often for my liking... Furthermore, planned stunts for the purpose of provoking unecessary charges, which coinidentally seems to occur most commonly in African DG hunts, have no place in any ethical hunting scenario..

With that said, the fact that a crossbow was used in the video is a red herring irrelevant to my overall contentions about pursuing DG in general..

 

[archer36]

That's a great question, and th answer is that it depends on the situation and the individual(s) involved..

Using the "high bridge" metaphor as it would apply to DG hunting, the bridge is prettty high, and I will be the first to admit that hunting DG is not for eveyone regardless of the weapon.. It's serious endeavor for all involved.. Poor decicions made by hunter and PH/Guide alike occur far too often for my liking... Furthermore, planned stunts for the purpose of provoking unecessary charges, which coinidentally seems to occur most commonly in African DG hunts, have no place in any ethical hunting scenario..

With that said, the fact that a crossbow was used in the video is a red herring irrelevant to my overall contentions about pursuing DG in general..

Some nuances here. It's almost guaranteed that a Lion will charge after a shot from Archery equipment unless you immobilize it with a spine shot which is not intended but accidental. That being said, I would guess that almost 100% of archery hunts for lion require a finishing shot from a firearm. Maybe 50% of hunts end that way if a firearm is employed as the initial weapon. So, there is a difference. The gun hunter intends to kill the lion with his gun. The archery hunter is dependent on the PH to save him from almost certain mauling. It's not ALL the same.

 

[Inline6]

Some nuances here. It's almost guaranteed that a Lion will charge after a shot from Archery equipment unless you immobilize it with a spine shot which is not intended but accidental. That being said, I would guess that almost 100% of archery hunts for lion require a finishing shot from a firearm. Maybe 50% of hunts end that way if a firearm is employed as the initial weapon. So, there is a difference. The gun hunter intends to kill the lion with his gun. The archery hunter is dependent on the PH to save him from almost certain mauling. It's not ALL the same.

I would argue that most people would need to be saved no matter what is used if a bad shot is made. The reality of the situation, DG is hunted at close range. If you mess up your shot chances are MOST people will not have the ability to reengage in the short amount of time required.

As far as bow vs gun, one is not going to draw the same attention due to the lack of blast/sound.

Either way, I'm not a bow hunter, I have killed my fare share of WT with one. That said I am not a DG hunter either. I have only killed one buff.

I think most people are a little to confident, just because you hunt with a rifle doesn't mean things won't go bad. Their are many videos that show rifle hunters getting saved by a PH too. If it was a guarantee, it would not be called hunting. If it were not dangerous well it would not be it the title either.

 

[archer36]

I would argue that most people would need to be saved no matter what is used if a bad shot is made. The reality of the situation, DG is hunted at close range. If you mess up your shot chances are MOST people will not have the ability to reengage in the short amount of time required.

As far as bow vs gun, one is not going to draw the same attention due to the lack of blast/sound.

Either way, I'm not a bow hunter, I have killed my fare share of WT with one. That said I am not a DG hunter either. I have only killed one buff.

I think most people are a little to confident, just because you hunt with a rifle doesn't mean things won't go bad. Their are many videos that show rifle hunters getting saved by a PH too. If it was a guarantee, it would not be called hunting. If it were not dangerous well it would not be it the title either.

True, but once again. What are the chances for the need for a follow up shot Gun vs Bow? And, who will make the shot? At least, if you are a gun hunter, you may have the opportunity for the finishing shot, not the PH, unless there is a charge. As you said, the sound of the blast alone will "scare" the animal away from you. The quietness of a bow does none of that. You are within 30 yds, sling an arrow and all the lion sees are 3 or 4 people trying to get him. Quite different don't you think?

 

[archer36]

I am not "bashing" anyone for hunting lion in this way. It's a personal decision. If you don't have issues with it, that's your business. My decision NOT to do a hunt like this is basically this. If it's almost a sure thing that my PH is going to finish off my animal, I wouldn't do it. Pursue Plains Game instead.

 

[WAB]

Some nuances here. It's almost guaranteed that a Lion will charge after a shot from Archery equipment unless you immobilize it with a spine shot which is not intended but accidental. That being said, I would guess that almost 100% of archery hunts for lion require a finishing shot from a firearm. Maybe 50% of hunts end that way if a firearm is employed as the initial weapon. So, there is a difference. The gun hunter intends to kill the lion with his gun. The archery hunter is dependent on the PH to save him from almost certain mauling. It's not ALL the same.

Is that true? I would have thought that a lion over bait wouldn’t even know he’d been shot if hit well with an arrow. I’m not an archery hunter so please excuse my ignorance if this is all wrong.

 

[Doug3006]

Anyone who has successfully archery hunted white tail deer with has had perfectly hit deer run a LONG way after receiving a lethal hit. I would say that the deer I have killed have averaged 50 yards before succumbing. So when I consider archery hunting a dangerous game animal, I can’t help but feel like archery gear is not up to the task. Which quite simply is to incapacitate the animal as quickly as possible so as not to receive a charge from an adrenalized dangerous animal.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Anyone who has successfully archery hunted white tail deer with has had perfectly hit deer run a LONG way after receiving a lethal hit. I would say that the deer I have killed have averaged 50 yards before succumbing. So when I consider archery hunting a dangerous game animal, I can’t help but feel like archery gear is not up to the task. Which quite simply is to incapacitate the animal as quickly as possible so as not to receive a charge from an adrenalized dangerous animal.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable conclusion

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Seems like a perfectly reasonable conclusion

One could almost say that it is inappropriate and irresponsible given the potential risk to life and limb

 

[Inline6]

Anyone who has successfully archery hunted white tail deer with has had perfectly hit deer run a LONG way after receiving a lethal hit. I would say that the deer I have killed have averaged 50 yards before succumbing. So when I consider archery hunting a dangerous game animal, I can’t help but feel like archery gear is not up to the task. Which quite simply is to incapacitate the animal as quickly as possible so as not to receive a charge from an adrenalized dangerous animal.

I would ask the same question about plains game, how many of us have shot them only to watch them run 30 to 130 yards? I watch a spring buck shot with a 300wm in the front shoulder run 100 yards before it fell over.

It is up to everyone who takes on a DG hunt to do their job to the best of their abilities. Sometimes thing go wrong and the PH has to take care of it. Someone posted a video of a person shooting an R8 at a lion. The PH had to take care of it, nothing is a given.

I get the way most think about a bow and the speed an animal circums to the arrow. My only point, it happens with bullets too. If you think it can't. Well you are probably setting yourself up for failure.

 

[Doug3006]

I prefer to play the odds. The odds of having a wounded and angry Buffalo, Lyon, whatever, increase when you shoot them with a stick and string.

 

[BSO Dave]

Some nuances here. It's almost guaranteed that a Lion will charge after a shot from Archery equipment unless you immobilize it with a spine shot which is not intended but accidental

Absolutely not true.. With all due respect, this is complete speculation on your part, and the oppoiste is actually more likely.. Read my eariler posts pointing out that a charge only occurs when the animal is aware of where the shot came from..

That being said, I would guess that almost 100% of archery hunts for lion require a finishing shot from a firearm.

Again, this is pure speculation on your part... Unfortuantely there are no "official" statistics kept to know what the numbers really are, but I know of at least a dozen hunters who have killed African lions with bows and this was not the case at all.. Especially with wild lions hunted over bait where 1-arrow lethality with archery gear is nearly 100%.. Why? becasue over bait the lion was calm and unaware of the hunter's presence allowing the hunter to make a smart, ethical shot..

True, but once again. What are the chances for the need for a follow up shot Gun vs Bow? And, who will make the shot? At least, if you are a gun hunter, you may have the opportunity for the finishing shot, not the PH, unless there is a charge. As you said, the sound of the blast alone will "scare" the animal away from you.

As stated above, there is no way to know the actual stats, and many variables are involved.. Regardless, you are assuming the weapon used is a factor in determining the need for a follow-up shot which it is not.. Shot placement determines the need for a follow-up shot regardless of the weapon.. As someone already stated, a bad shot is a bad shot..

 

[archer36]

Absolutely not true.. With all due respect, this is complete speculation on your part, and the oppoiste is actually more likely.. Read my eariler posts pointing out that a charge only occurs when the animal is aware of where the shot came from..



Again, this is pure speculation on your part... Unfortuantely there are no "official" statistics kept to know what the numbers really are, but I know of at least a dozen hunters who have killed African lions with bows and this was not the case at all.. Especially with wild lions hunted over bait where 1-arrow lethality with archery gear is nearly 100%.. Why? becasue over bait the lion was calm and unaware of the hunter's presence allowing the hunter to make a smart, ethical shot..



As stated above, there is no way to know the actual stats, and many variables are involved.. Regardless, you are assuming the weapon used is a factor in determining the need for a follow-up shot which it is not.. Shot placement determines the need for a follow-up shot regardless of the weapon.. As someone already stated, a bad shot is a bad shot..

The actual stats don't matter. Anyway you slice it, you are going to need a PH to finish off your lion much more often than with a gun hunt. If the hunter has a gun, he has the opportunity to put the finishing shot. Not so with archery equipment.

 

[Inline6]

The actual stats don't matter. Anyway you slice it, you are going to need a PH to finish off your lion much more often than with a gun hunt. If the hunter has a gun, he has the opportunity to put the finishing shot. Not so with archery equipment.

If you are talking about strictly "finishing shots", a number of archery hunters have used a gun to do that. It doesn't necessarily mean a PH will. If we are talking about stopping a charge, again I'm guessing most people would not do well hitting a moving target...much less in a high stress setting.