If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[Inline6]

@Mark Biggerstaff was the last name of your PH Green?

 

[Safari Dave]

I wouldn't impose my hunting "ethics" on anyone because, I am, at heart, a Libertarian.


But, anyone who would do this and post it on YouTube is an udder fool, jackass, dumbass, and idiot.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I guess the issue I have is I have never seen evidence of an ethical harvest of a CBL. I’ve seen lots of videos like the one the OP posted but not one showing days of tracking and missed opportunities with multiple lions being tracked. If I saw that representation, I would probably have a different opinion. All that said, I just have an opinion based off of reading and watching and not experience, so it means a whole lot of nothing on here.

I too have hunted this property in the video. It’s a very large property and as @Mark Biggerstaff stated, the PH in the video isn’t the owner or the main PH. The owner of that property is more of a broker and many different outfitters and PH’s will come in and operate hunts on the property. I believe I know who the PH is based on the rifle and some stories I’ve heard.

I personally hunted my lion, and just the lion for 5 full days. We had encounters every day, several at under 10 yards, but because of the grass height, wouldn’t know until he’d flee. We’d hear either a growl or just see the grass moving and catch sight of him in the distance, or sometimes just find the fresh tracks. I had several opportunities that offered no clean shot. Not once while hunting did we see fences and every time we’d bump him he’d take of running covering several kilometers to a different portion of the property. Often times he’d move back to the same area (major water hole) at night. Given the cover we believe this was his core area because he was very successful at hunting.

He had numerous kills. Additionally there were several lions on the property that also had kills and we’d spend some time tracking when the one I really wanted would beeline to another area of the property. One kill included a very large breeder Red Lechewe. I know with certainty the lion I killed had been on the property for several month and had successfully eluded several other hunters (including the one before me who’s hunt was unsuccessful). Because of him being unsuccessful I was able to upgrade my planned lioness hunt to a male.

This video does not reflect CBL Hunting or the hunt I was on. PH’s often cater the type of hunt to their client. This seemed like a staged hunt, much like many of the videos you see of someone intentionally wounding a buffalo to provoke a charge. I personally do not agree with DSC or SCI being against CBL Hunts but supporting estate hunts of other species. In my opinion if you support those organizations you condone High Fence Hunting by proxy. As someone mentioned before attacking any sort of legal hunting method is an attack on hunting and we need to hold firm on all points not yielding any ground. CBL Hunting and specifically the owner of this ranch has provided a ton of research opportunities and data on lions.

 

[Safari Dave]

I am a hunter education instructor in the U.S.A.


This crap is deplorable.

 

[Safari Dave]

I would show this to my students as an example as "unethical" in every class.

 

[Safari Dave]

Why doesn't this asswipe, just shoot in in the foot with a blowgun!

 

[Safari Dave]

"Method" - type hunters fall pretty low on ranks of true sportsmen, if they have hunted for more than 15 years.

A real sportsman should surpass that before their 30th birthday...

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

@Mark Biggerstaff was the last name of your PH Green?

No. Gerrit with Bos en Dal and Arrie van Niekerk where my PHs.
Gerrit I hunt with every year and Arrie is a well respected DG PH that specializes in Lion hunts. I know of other AHers that have hunted with him also.

 

[Inline6]

No. Gerrit with Bos en Dal and Arrie van Niekerk where my PHs.
Gerrit I hunt with every year and Arrie is a well respected DG PH that specializes in Lion hunts. I know of other AHers that have hunted with him also.

Just wanted to make sure, you are a pretty tall guy and they seemed several inches taller than you.

 

[Mark Biggerstaff]

Just wanted to make sure, you are a pretty tall guy and they seemed several inches taller than you.

Yes! I am 6'1" and both are taller than me by quite a few inches.

 

[Shakka]

I too have hunted this property in the video. It’s a very large property and as @Mark Biggerstaff stated, the PH in the video isn’t the owner or the main PH. The owner of that property is more of a broker and many different outfitters and PH’s will come in and operate hunts on the property. I believe I know who the PH is based on the rifle and some stories I’ve heard.

I personally hunted my lion, and just the lion for 5 full days. We had encounters every day, several at under 10 yards, but because of the grass height, wouldn’t know until he’d flee. We’d hear either a growl or just see the grass moving and catch sight of him in the distance, or sometimes just find the fresh tracks. I had several opportunities that offered no clean shot. Not once while hunting did we see fences and every time we’d bump him he’d take of running covering several kilometers to a different portion of the property. Often times he’d move back to the same area (major water hole) at night. Given the cover we believe this was his core area because he was very successful at hunting.

He had numerous kills. Additionally there were several lions on the property that also had kills and we’d spend some time tracking when the one I really wanted would beeline to another area of the property. One kill included a very large breeder Red Lechewe. I know with certainty the lion I killed had been on the property for several month and had successfully eluded several other hunters (including the one before me who’s hunt was unsuccessful). Because of him being unsuccessful I was able to upgrade my planned lioness hunt to a male.

This video does not reflect CBL Hunting or the hunt I was on. PH’s often cater the type of hunt to their client. This seemed like a staged hunt, much like many of the videos you see of someone intentionally wounding a buffalo to provoke a charge. I personally do not agree with DSC or SCI being against CBL Hunts but supporting estate hunts of other species. In my opinion if you support those organizations you condone High Fence Hunting by proxy. As someone mentioned before attacking any sort of legal hunting method is an attack on hunting and we need to hold firm on all points not yielding any ground. CBL Hunting and specifically the owner of this ranch has provided a ton of research opportunities and data on lions.

Who did you do that hunt with?

 

[deewayne2003]

I wouldn't impose my hunting "ethics" on anyone because, I am, at heart, a Libertarian.


But, anyone who would do this and post it on YouTube is an udder fool, jackass, dumbass, and idiot.

@Safari Dave
You sir have captured the spirit of my OP to the letter!

“To each his own, but if this is lion hunting… you can have it”

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Who did you do that hunt with?

I hunted with the owner of the property/lodge personally. He doesn’t do much advertising or really put his name out there. As I stated in my initial response the majority of hunts conducted are by other outfitters here. The reason for very little advertising is due to him having the space booked by other Outfitters as well as due to some serious death threats his children/him were the target of from antis.

 

[Shakka]

I hunted with the owner of the property/lodge personally. He doesn’t do much advertising or really put his name out there. As I stated in my initial response the majority of hunts conducted are by other outfitters here. The reason for very little advertising is due to him having the space booked by other Outfitters as well as due to some serious death threats his children/him were the target of from antis.

I asked because you seem to have had the hunt that I am looking for

 

[spike.t]

Again I can't believe this is still going..... around in circles.....

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Send me a PM and I’ll get you some contact info. De Klerk has posted on here several times and from what I understand has a pretty decent sized property as well. He spoke very highly of them as well, and openly admitted there are some outfitters who conduct hunts doing a disservice to CBL Hunts. I believe the client in this video likely did the editing, and was more to blame than the PH.

Not every hunt will go how mine did, or how Mark’s did. If I remember right, they told me about 10% of Hunter’s are successful the first day with 3 days being pretty common. If I remember right fewer than 10% went more than 4 days. They’re animals and all react differently.

With that said, I probably could’ve taken a long frontal shot with the lion, with him lying prone. The PH wanted a better angle and we both wanted to be closer. As soon as we tried to reposition he was off running and gone. I believe the weather and moon had a lot to do with him running as far as he did. It was very chilly in the mornings with frost most days, and a full moon at night which aided him in being successful hunting. He’d always run into the wind and with it not being warm he didn’t tire quickly letting him cover a lot of ground.

 

[BSO Dave]

One of them decided not to die before he got even. I broke that bulls neck when he was about ten feet from the PH. How would it have ended with a crossbow, loaded or not?

It could have ended any number of ways.. You are mistakenly making the assumption that a charge is inevitable with archery gear which it is not.. The animal only charges when it sees who shot it.. Unlike with a rifle, the vast majority of the time, the animal has no idea where the arrow came from.. One could actually make the argument that a rifle shot is more likely to elicit a charge because the crack of the rifle gives your position away to the animal.

I get that you are making it about the weapon because you are not a bowhunter who has taken DG game with a bow. You are forming an opinion based off one video, and making an anecdotal assumption that hunting DG anytime, anywhere is more dangerous when archery gear is used... One again, the OP's video is a perfect example of what NOT TO DO on a DG archery hunt. Had the shot been taken with the animal calm and unaware of the hunting party's presence, 99 out of 100 times that lion takes off not knowing what just happened regardless of the shot placement. The PHs with rifles are there for that 1 in 100, which is part of the deal when hunting DG bow, rifle or whatever...

Now if you want to make the argument that CBL hunts in general are inherently more dangerous, that's a different situation altogether..

A bad shot with a rifle is still bad. But, even if the lion had been standing perfectly broadside, and the lungs or heart had been centered, the lion would have ha plenty of time to kill someone before he died. With a rifle the shoulder and lungs/heart could be taken out. Yes, hunting dangerous game has danger in it, but the point is to take the animal without getting yourself or someone else killed.

Please correct me if I have this wrong.. Are you saying that a heart/lung shot with a rifle is an instant death for the animal so it will not have time to charge?? That has certainly not been the case in my experiences especially with a large DG game animal like a buffalo, hippo, or elephant which can take multiple rifle shots to the heart and lungs covering lots of ground before piling up... I am sure there are plenty of PHs on here that have been charged by DG animals shot perfectly in the vitals with large caliber rifles...

And in regard to your last sentence, I disagree that the point of hunting DG is to take the animal without getting somebody hurt. That's an impossibility by the very nature of the task hence the name "dangerous game"... If the main concern is to avoid any risk of injury, then why in the hell would you do the hunt? The point of hunting DG is to experience the added challenge and thrill of hunting for an animal that is inherently dangerous and capable of hurting someone... The unfortunate reality of somebody getting hurt is a byproduct of the experience..

 

[BSO Dave]

If one wants the thrill of bow hunting, well, it's up to him. But then, don't expect a PH-back up. You might have gotten your thrill - but then face the consequences, if something goes awry ! If you're a bow hunter, you know 2 things for sure:


1st you have to go close to your target

2nd even a perfect hit arrow will leave a large predator, or buffalo, for that matter, enough energy to charge and kill you.


That's, what you have to accept, but now cowardly wait for the rescue by the PH ..... Of course, everything can also happen with rifle hunting, but the situation then is completely different. In the video shown, the "hunter" enjoys all the fun he expects - but leaves his own safety completely to the PH, as he knows what I have already stated before.

From your comments I will assume that you are not a bowhunter, and certainly not one who has bowhunted DG...

Other than the need to get close to your target, your assumptions are all pretty much completely wrong.. How can you assert that bowhunting DG is more dangerous than rifle hunting in one sentence, then refer to the hunter cowardly in the next? LOL..!

Any ethical, and responsible bowhunter pursuing DG must accept that a rifle back-up might be necessary to fend off a charge or dispatch a wounded animal that cannot ethically be shot again with an arrow... It's part of the deal that any true bowhunter will acknowledge.. To make the claim that any part of this is "cowardly" is an asinine comment that I won't even bother to address any further..

 

[archer36]

I don't care what people do. If it makes them happy then do it. What I object to is that the hunter expects everyone to enjoy/ agree with the hunt. I say "hunt" loosely. It was a harvest. Just because he put an arrow into the lion doesn't mean he killed it. The PH did. Unless spine shot, which would immobilize the animal, it was almost certain that the lion would have to be shot with a firearm.
Do what you want. If you broadcast it, expect lots of feedback. Positive and negative.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

It could have ended any number of ways.. You are mistakenly making the assumption that a charge is inevitable with archery gear which it is not.. The animal only charges when it sees who shot it.. Unlike with a rifle, the vast majority of the time, the animal has no idea where the arrow came from.. One could actually make the argument that a rifle shot is more likely to elicit a charge because the crack of the rifle gives your position away to the animal.

I get that you are making it about the weapon because you are not a bowhunter who has taken DG game with a bow. You are forming an opinion based off one video, and making an anecdotal assumption that hunting DG anytime, anywhere is more dangerous when archery gear is used... One again, the OP's video is a perfect example of what NOT TO DO on a DG archery hunt. Had the shot been taken with the animal calm and unaware of the hunting party's presence, 99 out of 100 times that lion takes off not knowing what just happened regardless of the shot placement. The PHs with rifles are there for that 1 in 100, which is part of the deal when hunting DG bow, rifle or whatever...

Now if you want to make the argument that CBL hunts in general are inherently more dangerous, that's a different situation altogether..



Please correct me if I have this wrong.. Are you saying that a heart/lung shot with a rifle is an instant death for the animal so it will not have time to charge?? That has certainly not been the case in my experiences especially with a large DG game animal like a buffalo, hippo, or elephant which can take multiple rifle shots to the heart and lungs covering lots of ground before piling up... I am sure there are plenty of PHs on here that have been charged by DG animals shot perfectly in the vitals with large caliber rifles...

And in regard to your last sentence, I disagree that the point of hunting DG is to take the animal without getting somebody hurt. That's an impossibility by the very nature of the task hence the name "dangerous game"... If the main concern is to avoid any risk of injury, then why in the hell not inebotable would you do the hunt? The point of hunting DG is to experience the added challenge and thrill of hunting for an animal that is inherently dangerous and capable of hurting someone... The unfortunate reality of somebody getting hurt is a byproduct of the experience..

You have misread on t mis understood what I wrote. A charge after a bow shot inevitable, but it can happen, and an animal that doesn't know where you are can run towards you. In either event, there is nothing you can do about it. Well, I guess you could try swatting him on the end of the nose with your bow, but that's probably not the most effective defence.
Of course, animals do not generally fall over immediately when you make a heart/lung shot with a rifle either, but it is certainly easier break them down with the first shot. If they do run towards you whether in a charge or by bad luck, u u can stop them with a rifle, something you cannot do with any archery tackle.
As I've already written, hunting dangerous game with any weapon has inherent danger, but if you poke a dangerous anou shouldn't have to depend on someone else to save everybody's collective ass while you can only stand there hoping it comes out alright.
BTW, I have nothing against bow hunting in principle. The only reason I gave it up is because I had to move to a state that makes you choose which weapon you will hunt with. I would still do both if that was an option here.