If this is lion hunting…. You can have it

[Scott CWO]

A well placed arrow with full penetration kills very quickly and if the animal doesn’t know you are there and slinks away from you to die a short distance away, no problem.

However, if the lion locates you, it can develop into a problematic situation in which the PH will have to put the lion down.

A DG rifle and well placed bullet applies a lot of hydrostatic shock to an animal and this can greatly reduce the risk of a charge even if the animal sees or locates you and is technically still alive with some energy leftover.

There is a huge difference between these tools and it is more common for an issue to arise with an arrow but that’s the risk you take. Hopefully y’all quit arguing about it.

 

[freefall]

I have opinions on bowhunting, mainly based on finding dead deer with arrows in them whilst pheasant hunting.
Unless you can track like Chingachgook, you have no business launching a pointed stick into a living creature.
I could elaborate, but see no need.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Their are AH members who have had to literally save themselves and their PHs in charge situations. They would not have been able to do that with archery equipment

 

[archer36]

If you are talking about strictly "finishing shots", a number of archery hunters have used a gun to do that. It doesn't necessarily mean a PH will. If we are talking about stopping a charge, again I'm guessing most people would not do well hitting a moving target...much less in a high stress setting.

But then is it a archery kill?

 

[WAB]

Their are AH members who have had to literally save themselves and their PHs in charge situations. They would not have been able to do that with archery equipment

Yep, read our hunt report from 2017. That unprovoked charge would have resulted in a fatality if my buddy hadn’t been carrying a rifle. Once the PH was down and out, it was absolutely kill or be killed with no backup. That day was a wake up call for all of us.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Yep, read our hunt report from 2017. That unprovoked charge would have resulted in a fatality if my buddy hadn’t been carrying a rifle. Once the PH was down and out, it was absolutely kill or be killed with no backup. That day was a wake up call for all of us.

Personally, I can’t imagine hunting DG without a rifle.

Holy crap I used “their” instead of “there”…………..

 

[Shakka]

Absolutely not true.. With all due respect, this is complete speculation on your part, and the oppoiste is actually more likely.. Read my eariler posts pointing out that a charge only occurs when the animal is aware of where the shot came from..



Again, this is pure speculation on your part... Unfortuantely there are no "official" statistics kept to know what the numbers really are, but I know of at least a dozen hunters who have killed African lions with bows and this was not the case at all.. Especially with wild lions hunted over bait where 1-arrow lethality with archery gear is nearly 100%.. Why? becasue over bait the lion was calm and unaware of the hunter's presence allowing the hunter to make a smart, ethical shot..



As stated above, there is no way to know the actual stats, and many variables are involved.. Regardless, you are assuming the weapon used is a factor in determining the need for a follow-up shot which it is not.. Shot placement determines the need for a follow-up shot regardless of the weapon.. As someone already stated, a bad shot is a bad shot..

I TOTALLY agree with you

Some people like to spput nonsense with no basis for their "Facts."

 

[revturbo9967]

Yep, read our hunt report from 2017. That unprovoked charge would have resulted in a fatality if my buddy hadn’t been carrying a rifle. Once the PH was down and out, it was absolutely kill or be killed with no backup. That day was a wake up call for all of us.

Philip Glass’s leopard comes to mind as well

 

[Shakka]

I have opinions on bowhunting, mainly based on finding dead deer with arrows in them whilst pheasant hunting.
Unless you can track like Chingachgook, you have no business launching a pointed stick into a living creature.
I could elaborate, but see no need.

You don't have a clue about what you are talking about, and it is obvious that you don't know the first thing about bowhunting

I am not "Chinachgook" and I have killed over 100 deer with a bow.

PS I have been bird hunting my entire life and I never once found a deer with "arrows in them."

Ridiculous post

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Philip Glass’s leopard comes to mind as well

Another one I had in mind

 

[BRICKBURN]

Is that true? I would have thought that a lion over bait wouldn’t even know he’d been shot if hit well with an arrow. I’m not an archery hunter so please excuse my ignorance if this is all wrong.

Predators, will spin and try to bite at the thing that’s hurt them. Bullet holes and arrows.
I’ve seen Buffalo spin to figure out what hurt them. Just like they have been jabbed by a horn in the ribs.
Hyena and Leopard do the same thing.
Certainly, if the hunter is in a blind the Predator will look for what has touched them, not the hunter.
I’ve had Elk, Moose, Deer, Black Bears all just keep on feeding after being hit well. If the hunter has been sneaky and the animal is unaware.

 

[freefall]

You don't have a clue about what you are talking about, and it is obvious that you don't know the first thing about bowhunting

I am not "Chinachgook" and I have killed over 100 deer with a bow.

PS I have been bird hunting my entire life and I never once found a deer with "arrows in them."

Ridiculous post

Your lack of result has no bearing on my experience.

 

[Frederik]

This thread will never end and it only got started as a result of a video that should never have been aired.
There is a place for Bowhunting DG game but with respect there are only a few that will pull it off properly who is dedicated and comitted and train every day for the best result.

Walking in to an irritated lion with crossbow is not a good idea instead they should have backed off let the lion calm down and try again. I still suspect that the lion was wounded before with a previous arrow not shown as you see it unhappy biting the stick before the arrow and charge.

 

[VertigoBE]

This thread has been an interesting read, with many opinions given, some more experience driven than others.

The way I see it (and I’ll exclude baited-sitting-in-a-blind) when hunting, once an animal is located, identified to be an ethical offtake and the decision to take that particular specimen is made, the hunter does not have the moral obligation to “just” kill the intended target.

The hunter rather has the moral obligation to kill the animal with the least amount of suffering possible. Basically the intention should be that the time between touching the “trigger” and the animal expiring is as uneventful and painless as possible. Mistakes will be made of course, but it is up to the ethical hunter to put everything on his or her side to accomplish this goal.

This is why the ethical sporthunter will speak with dread about traps and snares found, who will kill just as well, but indiscriminately and causing a lot of suffering.

I have never bow hunted in my life, and probably will not. I can see the attraction of being more physically involved at the time of the shot, the obligation to creep in closer to the target and therefore higher difficulty level. But I fail to see why one cannot just stalk within 40m with a rifle.

A rifle is simply more appropriate, than a bow, a spear, a knife, a rock, throwing your Courtney’s after the animal. It will allow making a well placed shot easier, the animal cannot “outrun” the sound of a string, much more energy is in a bullet than an arrow (I think, but could be wrong about this), you can have an immediate second shot, and have a much bigger chance of shooting a moving target. Also when it is fleeing from the initial shot outside of the perimeter where an arrow is effective.

When then calculating as well for dangerous game, walk and stalk style, all the advantages of gun over bow (or spear, or knife or your boots) compound even more.

As it is your duty as the ethical sporthunter to reduce the time between touch of the trigger and final expiry of the animal as much as possible, not only for the suffering of the animal, but now also for the safety of the other bystanders, a bow seems even less appropriate (I repeat, in walk and stalk, I’m excluding blind hunting)

Now why go hunting for dangerous game with less than the best performing bullet, caliber, gun, optic, training combination? (Finding just this out is half of all the discussions on AH!) is it bravado? Showing of your skills? Proving a point? Each one will have their reasons and be very eloquent about it, but a fast and drama free expiry of the animal was not the primary motivator.

With non dangerous game I might have a bit more understanding. But for DG where the safety of others comes into play, wanting to use a less then most optimal tool to take the animal. Whether a bow, black powder rifle, single shot, a 22LR, your boots or whatever, compared to the biggest caliber you can expertly operate, with the best bullet, out of the best rifle, with the best optic, I do not understand the why. Ethics seem to take a back step to other motivations.

That being said, I would not forbid it, you do you, but I’d be much more reserved about it when communicating about it.

This particular video should not have been made, and I have little respect for anyone involved in its making.

Anyway, my opinion, everyone has one.

V.

 

[Shakka]

Your lack of result has no bearing on my experience.

What "Lack of results" are you referring to....not finding "Deer with arrows sticking out of them?"

 

[BRICKBURN]

This thread will never end and it only got started as a result of a video that should never have been aired.
There is a place for Bowhunting DG game but with respect there are only a few that will pull it off properly who is dedicated and comitted and train every day for the best result.

Walking in to an irritated lion with crossbow is not a good idea instead they should have backed off let the lion calm down and try again. I still suspect that the lion was wounded before with a previous arrow not shown as you see it unhappy biting the stick before the arrow and charge.

That's the part where a knowledgable and dedicated PH with Bow hunting experience comes in. Know when to back off. What is the rush? (Perhaps, as you suspect Frederik it was wounded)

I had a PH, with little to no bow hunting experience, leading the stalk instead of being behind. About the time he had spooked the quarry he steps out of the way and tells me to shoot. Trotting animals moving away at 80 yards! Think he was a rifle hunter?!

Bow hunting DG can be done properly, with the right professional.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

"but a fast and drama free expiry of the animal was not the primary motivator."

I respectfully disagree. While I have not killed a DG species with a bow, I have hunted and killed a fair number of deer and a fast, humane death was always a part of the equation. I would not have hunted with a bow otherwise, and my experience has been that a fast, humane death is very possible. Cant things go wrong? Just like with a rifle, yes. I would think the same can be true, with proper preparation and equipment, with DG. I have said before a bucket list item for me is a brown bear with bow. I have seen enough videos of bears being quickly, humanely harvested with bow and arrow to know it very much can be done. I still believe it comes down to equipment, a person's motivation, and preparation. And yes, a fast and drama free expiry figures into the planning.

"With non dangerous game I might have a bit more understanding. But for DG where the safety of others comes into play"

I've seen others mention this, but I don't quite get it. Someone in a back-up capacity isn't there and surprised to be there. They understand the risk and have chosen to take part, whether for financial gain or in a friendship role, such as a couple of buddies that have played back up when I have hunted brown bears with a bow. I understand that with this things can still go pear shaped, and maybe some people who should not be in a support role are in over their heads. However, with a PH or a skilled, competent friend who understands the risks... is there the safety of others to consider? Sure. But they are hardly naive, inexperienced bystanders. Having or using a support person is just one more aspect to certain types of hunting, IMHO.

@VertigoBE I have and continue to always respect your opinions good sir. Just offering a counterpoint.

 

[VertigoBE]

"but a fast and drama free expiry of the animal was not the primary motivator."

I respectfully disagree. While I have not killed a DG species with a bow, I have hunted and killed a fair number of deer and a fast, humane death was always a part of the equation. I would not have hunted with a bow otherwise, and my experience has been that a fast, humane death is very possible. Cant things go wrong? Just like with a rifle, yes. I would think the same can be true, with proper preparation and equipment, with DG. I have said before a bucket list item for me is a brown bear with bow. I have seen enough videos of bears being quickly, humanely harvested with bow and arrow to know it very much can be done. I still believe it comes down to equipment, a person's motivation, and preparation. And yes, a fast and drama free expiry figures into the planning.

"With non dangerous game I might have a bit more understanding. But for DG where the safety of others comes into play"

I've seen others mention this, but I don't quite get it. Someone in a back-up capacity isn't there and surprised to be there. They understand the risk and have chosen to take part, whether for financial gain or in a friendship role, such as a couple of buddies that have played back up when I have hunted brown bears with a bow. I understand that with this things can still go pear shaped, and maybe some people who should not be in a support role are in over their heads. However, with a PH or a skilled, competent friend who understands the risks... is there the safety of others to consider? Sure. But they are hardly naive, inexperienced bystanders. Having or using a support person is just one more aspect to certain types of hunting, IMHO.

@VertigoBE I have and continue to always respect your opinions good sir. Just offering a counterpoint.

@Tundra Tiger: Thank you for your words, I too enjoy reading about your thoughts sir.

On the first point where you disagreed with, I'd like to underline "primary" motivator. I am definitely not saying that ethics is not part of the equation when hunting with a bow. In a sense it could even be considered more ethical, because more chance for the quarry to get away because of the self imposed restrictions through the tool used. However, if it is just about making things more difficult, pushing the balance of advantage a bit more on the side of the game, just stalk closer. With a rifle. Instead of taking a new lightweight rifle, take a heavy old double barreled rifle in a big caliber to make things more complicated. Choosing for the bow, therefore brings into play another motivator. Which I as a non-bow hunter cannot identify, but can recognize as one taking over as the "primary" motivator.

I'd love to hear more from you what it is that makes you want to hunt a brown bear specifically with a bow.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

@VertigoBE ... Thank you kind sir. I always enjoy your input; you're one of the most respectful people on this site.

For me a bow has always been a combination of reasons for choosing such, to include the actual enjoyment of simply shooting a bow, the things I enjoy about hunting magnified through needing to get closer, a number of non-target wildlife experiences I've had that I don't think I would have had hunting with a gun, and yes, a deeper sense of accomplishment because there is or can be more that is involved in harvesting an animal with a bow. I very much understand how hunting big game animals, let alone dangerous game, with a bow could seem unnecessary or akin to a stunt to some who hunt with a rifle. But it's all perspective, right? There are people out there - and I am not talking about the hardcore antis - who think that hunting with anything is a bit of a stunt or unnecessary. Taking it the other direction, I have a friend who has hunted bear and other things with a spear. If I allowed myself to, I could consider that unnecessary or a stunt, though I know my friend well enough to know his intentions and his commitment to getting it right, and as such, while it doesn't trip my trigger, I certainly don't hold it against him.

As for myself, IF I ever finally am able to harvest a brown bear with a bow, I do want to only do it - take the shot - if it can be done quickly and humanely. It is, for me, a personal achievement thing. I don't give a rat's butt if anyone ever knows. It won't be filmed and it certainly won't be on YouTube or any other social media platform. If successful, I doubt I'll ever do it again. I grew up soaking up bowhunting magazines that showed guys like Fred Bear killing big bears, and then later more contemporary guys like Chuck Adams. I have been very close to big bears a bunch of times and killed a couple of middling ones with a rifle. It was something I set as a goal a long while back and it's one of the few things left to check off, from my own list. Some of that is that I haven't yet gotten the right opportunity, the one that affords me what I believe will be a quick, humane kill. I also know in sharing that there are still those who are going to see it as a stunt or unnecessary, and I certainly don't hold that against them. All I can do is say that I am at peace with my own motivations, and I know I will put in the time and effort to prepare to be ready for when the opportunity presents itself.

We all do a lot of things simply to prove to ourselves we can. For me, some of that has been stuff like building my own remote cabin all by myself (no training or experience prior to doing so), teaching myself fish taxidermy, becoming a published author, and being purposeful in being a father. A bow killed bear is one of my hunting goals, and yes, I can hear some with the argument that hunting bears with a bow (or any DG) has a distinct danger element to it that some of those other things do not. All I can say is that while I'm not out trying to do dangerous things willy-nilly for some sort of adrenaline rush, neither am I going to live my life passively, waiting for death to show up on my doorstep someday.

My apologies. That was waaaaaaay too long winded.

Short answer, still: I can understand the motivation/desire of hunting DG with a bow. This video should NEVER have been made. There is nothing about this video that makes me think this fool should be called a hunter.

 

[VertigoBE]

@VertigoBE ... Thank you kind sir. I always enjoy your input; you're one of the most respectful people on this site.

For me a bow has always been a combination of reasons for choosing such, to include the actual enjoyment of simply shooting a bow, the things I enjoy about hunting magnified through needing to get closer, a number of non-target wildlife experiences I've had that I don't think I would have had hunting with a gun, and yes, a deeper sense of accomplishment because there is or can be more that is involved in harvesting an animal with a bow. I very much understand how hunting big game animals, let alone dangerous game, with a bow could seem unnecessary or akin to a stunt to some who hunt with a rifle. But it's all perspective, right? There are people out there - and I am not talking about the hardcore antis - who think that hunting with anything is a bit of a stunt or unnecessary. Taking it the other direction, I have a friend who has hunted bear and other things with a spear. If I allowed myself to, I could consider that unnecessary or a stunt, though I know my friend well enough to know his intentions and his commitment to getting it right, and as such, while it doesn't trip my trigger, I certainly don't hold it against him.

As for myself, IF I ever finally am able to harvest a brown bear with a bow, I do want to only do it - take the shot - if it can be done quickly and humanely. It is, for me, a personal achievement thing. I don't give a rat's butt if anyone ever knows. It won't be filmed and it certainly won't be on YouTube or any other social media platform. If successful, I doubt I'll ever do it again. I grew up soaking up bowhunting magazines that showed guys like Fred Bear killing big bears, and then later more contemporary guys like Chuck Adams. I have been very close to big bears a bunch of times and killed a couple of middling ones with a rifle. It was something I set as a goal a long while back and it's one of the few things left to check off, from my own list. Some of that is that I haven't yet gotten the right opportunity, the one that affords me what I believe will be a quick, humane kill. I also know in sharing that there are still those who are going to see it as a stunt or unnecessary, and I certainly don't hold that against them. All I can do is say that I am at peace with my own motivations, and I know I will put in the time and effort to prepare to be ready for when the opportunity presents itself.

We all do a lot of things simply to prove to ourselves we can. For me, some of that has been stuff like building my own remote cabin all by myself (no training or experience prior to doing so), teaching myself fish taxidermy, becoming a published author, and being purposeful in being a father. A bow killed bear is one of my hunting goals, and yes, I can hear some with the argument that hunting bears with a bow (or any DG) has a distinct danger element to it that some of those other things do not. All I can say is that while I'm not out trying to do dangerous things willy-nilly for some sort of adrenaline rush, neither am I going to live my life passively, waiting for death to show up on my doorstep someday.

My apologies. That was waaaaaaay too long winded.

Short answer, still: I can understand the motivation/desire of hunting DG with a bow. This video should NEVER have been made. There is nothing about this video that makes me think this fool should be called a hunter.

Thanks for this extensive response @Tundra Tiger , it is much appreciated.

Actually it also made me think about something I'd want to try to accomplish myself, after having heard about it being done. A forest guard (garde-chasse) I am acquainted with, confided that in all the hunts he organised for the terrains owners, he has killed more wild boar with his knife than with a rifle. This trying to protect his tracking dogs from getting ripped to shreds.

I've always thought to myself, if this wiry, barely 65kg tiny man can jump on +100 kg of hopped-up-on-adrenaline wild boar and stab it to submission, I'd like to once try this as well. I cannot explain why exactly. Because a stunt like this would be an excellent candidate for the Darwin Awards. I'd say it is indeed more to prove myself I can do something so difficult and demanding. But must shamefully admit that in that particular setting all my previous good talk of respect and ethics seems to go out the door as well. Hmmm. it seems this human psyche thing is a bit more complicated than we thought!

I'm off to bed, dreaming of hunting in Africa (with a rifle ! )