Hunting SA or "Wild" Africa - Which is Better

[John Wasmuth]

Hunt a leopard/lion from a blind = sporty
Hunt a captive bread lion on foot = not sporty
Hunt a buffalo or plains game on a 20,000K fenced property = not sporty
Hunt with a non-controlled fed rifle = not suitable for dangerous game because is not control fed, you will end up dead some day
Hunt with a Blaser which is not controlled fed = great rifle for dangerous game and everything in between
Hunt white tail deer from a stand = not hunting
Hunt African plains game from an elevated platform = sporty
Hunt in camo clothing = not sporty, you're a redneck
Hunt in khaki, green, etc. clothing = sporty
Hunt with X, Y Z bullets = not sporty because you heard or read that those bullets suck
Hunts with A, B, C bullets = You are the sh*t because you hunt with the best bullets

We are our worst enemy. Respect and be respected. Accept that not everyone can afford to hunt those true "wild" areas.

One of, if not the most, accurate posts ever.

 

[VertigoBE]

We are our worst enemy. Respect and be respected.

I had a lengthy response to some other posts written up. But this phrase captures my writings more succinctly.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

I don’t think you could do anything at this point to make me think you are what you claim. I’ll eagerly await PMs from your thousands of past clients telling me I am wrong.

You are another one of those highly pompous, arrogant posters that I've noticed frequently on this site which is a damn shame considering how great this place is overall. Any time someone says something you disagree with, your go-to response is usually along the lines of, "Well, you've never hunted in X Y Z location so you have no right to comment," or, "Where are your photos," seriously, who the hell do you think you are? I don't know @IvW so I have no way of confirming his experience but you are not Judge Jury and Executioner of AfricaHunting. Wind your neck in.

 

[IvW]

There is always an attempt to present South Africa as more wild than it is including your post. There are a few very large well managed reserves and some hunting along Kruger park boundary, not many as you describe. This hunting would compare to any unfenced hunting anywhere else in Africa, but it’s the exception in South Africa not the rule. Most South African hunting properties are 3000-15000 acres and are heavily managed, very different experience to wild concession areas. Present it for what it is accurately, shouldn’t be difficult for someone who claims to be a highly experienced PH and hunted thousands of dangerous game animals seemingly everywhere in Africa (without any photos).

I never said it was the norm but some folks imply that all of SA hunt tagged hand fed animals....
Some claim no fenced areas are the only way to go yet have no issue hunting the fenced BVC or SVC or deer on 100 acres in a farming area or etc.etc.....

We are bad as mentioned above to condemn hunting because of our own beliefs......if the game ranching industry did not exist in SA a few species would have been extinct by now.....many people would not be able to hunt Africa.....all game ranch land would be cattle or goat farming....the hunters who visit SA are the ones who have made it the succes story that it is....

Bad hunting practices are found in all countries in the world where hunting is offered....using that to condemn the country is idiotic....many visting paying hunters are part of the problem because they partake in these illegal practices.....

The rich who can afford only what they believe to be "wild Aftica" are the worst when it comes to condemning certain countries because of these beliefs....

By all means enjoy the "wild Africa" only a few can afford but do not condemn other countries and hunters who cannot do the same.....

 

[375Fox]

You are another one of those highly pompous, arrogant posters that I've noticed frequently on this site which is a damn shame considering how great this place is overall. Any time someone says something you disagree with, your go-to response is usually along the lines of, "Well, you've never hunted in X Y Z location so you have no right to comment," or, "Where are your photos," seriously, who the hell do you think you are? I don't know @IvW so I have no way of confirming his experience but you are not Judge Jury and Executioner of AfricaHunting. Wind your neck in.

When it comes to discussions such as this post. I do feel asking where a person has hunted is relevant. I have also only ever asked two members on this site for photos both for the same reason.

 

[IvW]

I don’t think you could do anything at this point to make me think you are what you claim. I’ll eagerly await PMs from your thousands of past clients telling me I am wrong.

I certainly dont care what you think I have or have not done or hunted...and I did not join this forum to post pictures of animals I did not kill myself even if I was part of the hunt and I guided it...I may well have hunted more DG than you have hunted animals in total or I may be a keypad warrior....you can believe what you want....

 

[0002S]

Pretty easy to find the ads even on AH. The sable and buffalo breeding operations don’t allow their breeding bulls to die of old age. They are sold to hunting operations and transported. Genetics are definitely improving on many properties, but they are also regularly supplemented on many or outright placed for trophy hunting on some. Darting and measuring is also a common practice particularly on breeding bulls.

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47 Inch Plus Buffalo Bull Hunt With TSALA HUNTING SAFARIS

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48.5 Inch Plus Sable Available For An AH Member With Bow Or Handgun

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I’ve been to two county fairs and a goat rope’n and well now I’ve seen it all. I’ve seen breeders or ranches with a breeding stock (not in pen) allow these to be shot before they die. But I’ve never seen a guarantee that you will find them. For me that would take the fun out of it, if you knew exactly where the animal was. I guess there is a market for everything and someone willing to pay. While not my cup of tea, who am I to count someone else’s money or judge their hunting habits.

Your post makes me think.

Let me ask you this (well anyone). You are hunting with this outfit and you are not specifically hunting or paid for a specific animal and one of the above opportunities presents itself in an open a fair manner. You are told the price at the time. Is one any less of a hunter for taking the opportunity than the person who pays knowing he is going to hunt that specific animal, for a specific trophy score?

 

[Ragman]

Hunt a leopard/lion from a blind = sporty
Hunt a captive bread lion on foot = not sporty
Hunt a buffalo or plains game on a 20,000K fenced property = not sporty
Hunt with a non-controlled fed rifle = not suitable for dangerous game because is not control fed, you will end up dead some day
Hunt with a Blaser which is not controlled fed = great rifle for dangerous game and everything in between
Hunt white tail deer from a stand = not hunting
Hunt African plains game from an elevated platform = sporty
Hunt in camo clothing = not sporty, you're a redneck
Hunt in khaki, green, etc. clothing = sporty
Hunt with X, Y Z bullets = not sporty because you heard or read that those bullets suck
Hunts with A, B, C bullets = You are the sh*t because you hunt with the best bullets

We are our worst enemy. Respect and be respected. Accept that not everyone can afford to hunt those true "wild" areas.

Mike drop!!! You absolutely nailed it Oscar.
Don’t forget the one about hunting animals on an island they can’t leave = sporty
Hunting animals on 1000s of acres they can’t leave because a fence = unsporty.

People can’t be so funny.

 

[375Fox]

. . . I guess there is a market for everything and someone willing to pay. While not my cup of tea, who am I to count someone else’s money or judge their hunting habits.

Your post makes me think.

Let me ask you this (well anyone). You are hunting with this outfit and you are not specifically hunting or paid for a specific animal and one of the above opportunities presents itself in an open a fair manner. You are told the price at the time. Is one any less of a hunter for taking the opportunity than the person who pays knowing he is going to hunt that specific animal, for a specific trophy score?

In my opinion, making it a point to not judge someone’s hunting preferences just leaves it open to anti-hunters who are very vocal. Non-hunters will decide future of hunting. Hunting wild areas and fenced areas that are managed on a sustainable quota can be defended. The money conserves the land, provides anti-poaching, allows the rest of the eco-system to carry on. To pick one of those ads to compare to your example, hunting a 48” sable that’s been recently introduced to a large fenced area without predators, that was previously a breeding bull in a small fenced enclosure, it’s been fed and had veterinary checks it’s entire life, now being sold as a huge trophy doesn’t present the same or any defensible conservation message for hunting. I don’t agree with supporting practices just because they’ve made hunting affordable. I really think many of the practices South African hunting has normalized will haunt us in the future. Namibia has some of the same practices but their professional hunting organization has held them to a high ethical standard, so doesn’t receive the same or really any criticism. I’d pass on the bull if that was the opportunity provided. I’d hope I selected outfitter that didn’t consider that type hunting acceptable.

 

[firehuntfish]

I think a lot of hunters, having had a "once in a lifetime experience" with a certain outfitter, feel comfortable only returning to that setting. We have members here who have been to Africa several times always with the same outfitter.

My real message is that the client who returns exclusively to the same outfitter is simply denying himself those far broader experiences.

I'm going to disagree with you here, and offer a different perspective.

There are distinct advantages to hunting with the same outfitter or PH on more than one safari especially when Africa is the destination. There are many African outfitters, including the one which I have the privilege of representing, who offer hunting opportunities for plainsgame and dangerous game in multiple RSA provinces as well as several other African countries.

Whether our client is on their first plainsgame safari or their 10th safari hunting dangerous game in Mozambique, we work extremely hard to go above and beyond for our clients at every opportunity with the goal of providing them with a very specialized, personal, and unique overall hunting experience. When this is the approach, most of our clients develop a level of confidence, comfort, and trust that they may not have otherwise received with another outfitter. These clients now know exactly what they can expect from us, and what any family members or guests they bring in the future can expect. With that in mind, the prospect of hunting with us again is very appealing and advantageous for a number of reasons.

The majority of our clientele are repeat guests, and it is for this very reason that we have camps established in several different provinces of South Africa where we can offer our clients new and exciting opportunities at a multitude of different species in their native habitats. Furthermore, we have established long-standing relationships and partnerships that allow us to personally host our clients on safari in several different African countries. Our repeat clients can enjoy almost any type of adventure in pursuit of most any African species all why experiencing the peace of mind, familiarity, and comradery in hunting various destinations in Africa with an outfitter/PH that they know and trust.

Speaking from my own personal experiences, I had visited and hunted Africa a few times with different outfitters before hunting with Limcroma with the main reason being that it has always been my goal to visit as many different African destinations offering as many different species and experiences as possible. It was not until I found Limcroma and discovered how uniquely different of a business model they offer, that I even considered hunting with the same outfitter on future occasions. Suffice to say, after 6 consecutive safaris with them, I have hunted in most of the provinces of RSA and 4 different African countries. Our plan is to make it 5 or possibly 6 different countries next time over!

Although it is ultimately each individual hunter's prerogative, the notion that anyone who chooses to hunt with the same outfitter on more than one occasion is denying themselves the broader experiences is not necessarily true. When you find the right outfitter with whom you have established a rapport, and who treat you like family, capable of offering the logistics, I believe that offers the client a distinct advantage that is likely to provide a far better and more consistent experience.

 

[BSO Dave]

I'm having a hard time seeing how SA is more affordable then some other areas. I did about as much research as any in the booking stage and once I compared the numbers, I would not pay mush more in Zim then I would in SA for the same animals.

Are you taking every aspect of the entire trip into consideration when making your comparisons?

Many RSA outfitters can be accessed by simply flying into Johannesburg. There is usually no need for extra domestic or inside Africa charter flights(s) after reaching Jo'burg. Also there is usually no need for extra travel days which equate into extra overnight accommodation and other miscellaneous costs when traveling to other countries.

On average, daily rates are usually much higher in countries like Zim, Moz, or Tanzania (on average 3:1) specifically because these areas are much more remote and logistically challenging which equates into more travel time and expense. Although animals offered on quota in these countries are often cheaper than the average RSA trophy fees, the daily rates usually exceed the overall costs compared to the combination of trophy fees and daily rates on a South African safari.

Then, there is the cost of trophy prep, and transport through multiple countries along with license fees & permits that are often not all-inclusive of the other costs which are all-inclusive with most RSA outfitters. So, when you factor in the total cost inclusive of all the necessary logistical costs, with a few exceptions, the RSA safari is still by far less expensive.

 

[BSO Dave]

Honestly, a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of your comments on this forum in regards to hunting 'wild Africa' or SA (because somehow the latter just doesn't count in your opinion) come across as pompous, arrogant, and downright snobbish.

This is typical of Tanks and 375Fox.. Lots of members here post opposing opinions, but these two seem to consistently do it in a way that comes off as pompous, arrogant, and condescending.. I wouldn't use the word snob however.. A different adjective comes to mind..

Present it for what it is accurately, shouldn’t be difficult for someone who claims to be a highly experienced PH and hunted thousands of dangerous game animals seemingly everywhere in Africa (without any photos).

Why would you even post this kind of BS? Please don't answer.. It's a rhetorical question.. We already know the answer..

 

[Red Leg]

It's not uncommon to have a price for an animal up to 'x' inches and then have a $ amount for each 'x' after that. I've never seen or hunted anywhere, that they bring out the animal for viewing before hand and or set you up to guarantee you're going to see an animal over 'x'. I've never actually hunted anywhere that you even are guaranteed to see a near record level animal. About the most I would ever get is you're guaranteed an opportunity to shoot a trophy. Even then, there are usually caveats.

I have been hunting where, sitting in a blind or stalking, a guide/ph has told me that if I shoot that animal, it will probably score over the 'x' limit, and I would be responsible for the difference, on top of the animal's cost. They usually will tell me, it's a little larger than it measures out, unless they know I'm not concerned with a budget. I have passed on animals because, the value to trophy ratio wasn't appealing to me, for what ever reason, at that time. There have been other times I have opted to pay more. At no time was there ever a guarantee before I left the camp.

I've hunted these types of animals on no, low and high fenced. None of the animals acted different that others because there was an additional charge for the trophy based on size. None of them acted differently because of a man made or artificial boundary.

I will say that carefully managed property, that have introduced good genetics and culling practices will offer more opportunities for larger trophies than free range.

Let me say that I have hunted in both fenced and unfenced environments for both plains game and dangerous game. I have had excellent experiences in both. I even published articles about both. I have not hunted and would not knowingly hunt a put and take environment or species on a ranch managed in such a way. I should note there are any number of reputable SA outfitters who offer great experiences hunting self-sustaining herds in environments far larger than the animal's natural range.

As I noted elsewhere, I also hate sharing a camp with a crowd. For others this is not an issue.

But with respect to the game itself, a conclusion I reached following my SA buffalo hunt was that the final two-hundred yards was pretty much the same whether hunting along the banks of the Kwando, Zambezi, or Limpopo.

SOUTH AFRICA: Up Close In The Limpopo - Hunting Cape Buffalo With Phillip Bronkhorst

The morning started like many buffalo hunts anywhere with the fresh tracks of a small herd crossing a dirt trace cut through the bush. Phillip Bronkhorst, Pieter Taylor (one of Phillip's PHs), our tracker Josias, Rickey (a young videographer in training), and your faithful correspondent bailed...

www.africahunting.com

That said, given a choice, and cost is inevitably and appropriately a factor in such choices, I do prefer hunting game animals in their natural range. Their existence there forms the basis around which a particular trip is organized and taken. For instance, hunting a red lechwe in the high desert of the Limpopo is about interesting to me as shooting one on a game ranch in Texas. Creeping along the edge of a woodland in Mozambique trying to close with a 36" sable is much more interesting from an experience perspective than taking a 42" animal behind a fence far from its natural range.

But there is nothing "wrong" with either experience. The vast array of opportunities is what makes the continent such an interesting destination.

However, something I tolerate in Europe that I hate anywhere in Africa are trophy costs by the inch (or centimeter). The growing Euro trophy management system of much of the industry in South Africa inevitably creates a very different hunting experience than one will find elsewhere in Africa. Let me quickly say, in a managed environment like a game ranch, a owner would be foolish not to maximize his profits. If clients are willing to pay more for bigger trophies, he should have the right to charge what the market will bear. I also have the option to spend my money elsewhere.

But back to the different experience. In places like Mozambique, most of Namibia, Zim and Zambia, a PH is focused on getting his client the finest animals that meet the client's expectations, hopes, or dreams, that he possibly can in the time and under the conditions allotted for the hunt. That does, at least in my experience, create a different experience and hunting relationship than judging animals by price class. Again, that is something I am completely comfortable with in Europe, but not something I care to participate in on an African hunt.

 

[VertigoBE]

Let me say that I have hunted in both fenced and unfenced environments for both plains game and dangerous game. I have had excellent experiences in both. I even published articles about both. I have not hunted and would not knowingly hunt a put and take environment or species on a ranch managed in such a way. I should note there are any number of reputable SA outfitters who offer great experiences hunting self-sustaining herds in environments far larger than the animal's natural range.

As I noted elsewhere, I also hate sharing a camp with a crowd. For others this is not an issue.

But with respect to the game itself, a conclusion I reached following my SA buffalo hunt was that the final two-hundred yards was pretty much the same whether hunting along the banks of the Kwando, Zambezi, or Limpopo.

SOUTH AFRICA: Up Close In The Limpopo - Hunting Cape Buffalo With Phillip Bronkhorst

The morning started like many buffalo hunts anywhere with the fresh tracks of a small herd crossing a dirt trace cut through the bush. Phillip Bronkhorst, Pieter Taylor (one of Phillip's PHs), our tracker Josias, Rickey (a young videographer in training), and your faithful correspondent bailed...

www.africahunting.com

That said, given a choice, and cost is inevitably and appropriately a factor in such choices, I do prefer hunting game animals in their natural range. Their existence there forms the basis around which a particular trip is organized and taken. For instance, hunting a red lechwe in the high desert of the Limpopo is about interesting to me as shooting one on a game ranch in Texas. Creeping along the edge of a woodland in Mozambique trying to close with a 36" sable is much more interesting from an experience perspective than taking a 42" animal behind a fence far from its natural range.

But there is nothing "wrong" with either experience. The vast array of opportunities is what makes the continent such an interesting destination.

However, something I tolerate in Europe that I hate anywhere in Africa are trophy costs by the inch (or centimeter). The growing Euro trophy management system of much of the industry in South Africa inevitably creates a very different hunting experience than one will find elsewhere in Africa. Let me quickly say, in a managed environment like a game ranch, a owner would be foolish not to maximize his profits. If clients are willing to pay more for bigger trophies, he should have the right to charge what the market will bear. I also have the option to spend my money elsewhere.

But back to the different experience. In places like Mozambique, most of Namibia, Zim and Zambia, a PH is focused on getting his client the finest animals that meet the client's expectations, hopes, or dreams, that he possibly can in the time and under the conditions allotted for the hunt. That does, at least in my experience, create a different experience and hunting relationship than judging animals by price class. Again, that is something I am completely comfortable with in Europe, but not something I care to participate in on an African hunt.

Even here in Europe I do not enjoy this commodification of game. The size of the trophy should only be up to Diana, not one’s pocketbook.

 

[Christian Davis]

I think people should hunt in ways that are legal and that satisfy their personal sense of ethics and aesthetics, at a price they can afford. Let's help one another to choose outfitters, areas and equipment to do just that!

 

[revturbo9967]

Are you taking every aspect of the entire trip into consideration when making your comparisons?

Many RSA outfitters can be accessed by simply flying into Johannesburg. There is usually no need for extra domestic or inside Africa charter flights(s) after reaching Jo'burg. Also there is usually no need for extra travel days which equate into extra overnight accommodation and other miscellaneous costs when traveling to other countries.

On average, daily rates are usually much higher in countries like Zim, Moz, or Tanzania (on average 3:1) specifically because these areas are much more remote and logistically challenging which equates into more travel time and expense. Although animals offered on quota in these countries are often cheaper than the average RSA trophy fees, the daily rates usually exceed the overall costs compared to the combination of trophy fees and daily rates on a South African safari.

Then, there is the cost of trophy prep, and transport through multiple countries along with license fees & permits that are often not all-inclusive of the other costs which are all-inclusive with most RSA outfitters. So, when you factor in the total cost inclusive of all the necessary logistical costs, with a few exceptions, the RSA safari is still by far less expensive.

Nope, it’s not far less expensive over all, especially if you do your homework.

 

[Tanks]

...

The rich who can afford only what they believe to be "wild Aftica" are the worst when it comes to condemning certain countries because of these beliefs....

By all means enjoy the "wild Africa" only a few can afford but do not condemn other countries and hunters who cannot do the same.....

Need to point out that many of us that hunt "wild Africa" are not rich. For DG, Zimbabwe prices are very reasonable. Heck, just look at some of the ads here from Zimbabwean operators for tuskless elephants or buffalo.

 

[flatwater bill]

This has been a fun thread...........more heat than light, however. Those of you that have found a way to hunt "wild Africa"........say, across the Turkwell River in 1890 or North of the Orange in 1810, I salute you. The rest of us hunt animals that know damn well that they are in competition with 1.4 billion humans, be it RSA or elsewhere. Sit in the eve after a day in the bush, swill G&T, ice from a cooler clinking, bakkie popping as it cools, and tell yourself that you have found the real, wild Africa. If you're not sure that you are in the right place, check on your tablet.....you'll probably have WIFI...most hunters demand it.......FWB

 

[IdaRam]

While catching up on the last half dozen pages or so in this thread, a thought struck me. I remembered something a good old boy once said (might’ve even been Cody or Spike.T ). “The worst piece of ass I ever had was fantastic!” While that may not translate directly, there must be some degree of relevance.

 

[0002S]

In my opinion, making it a point to not judge someone’s hunting preferences just leaves it open to anti-hunters who are very vocal. Non-hunters will decide future of hunting. Hunting wild areas and fenced areas that are managed on a sustainable quota can be defended. The money conserves the land, provides anti-poaching, allows the rest of the eco-system to carry on. To pick one of those ads to compare to your example, hunting a 48” sable that’s been recently introduced to a large fenced area without predators, that was previously a breeding bull in a small fenced enclosure, it’s been fed and had veterinary checks it’s entire life, now being sold as a huge trophy doesn’t present the same or any defensible conservation message for hunting. I don’t agree with supporting practices just because they’ve made hunting affordable. I really think many of the practices South African hunting has normalized will haunt us in the future. Namibia has some of the same practices but their professional hunting organization has held them to a high ethical standard, so doesn’t receive the same or really any criticism. I’d pass on the bull if that was the opportunity provided. I’d hope I selected outfitter that didn’t consider that type hunting acceptable.

Anti-hunters don't care what you say, facts or figures. They only care that you don't hunt. It is a religion to them. You can't negotiate with communists. You can learn to fly a helicopter though.

As long as it's legal, it's their dime to spend as they see fit. As long as the money goes to conservation and increasing the numbers of hunters, I'm ok with that. Hunters will find what they like or dislike and change accordingly, or not at all.

I choose not to judge because I don't know what the person is expecting for their money, that they are choosing to spend.

Nothing about hunting is affordable. Your average Joe doesn't pay to shoot an animal, let alone fly to a foreign land to shoot one.

I'm not a fan of people who are only looking or trophy size and are willing to pay any price to have it presented to them to shoot. But there is a market for them and who am I to say how they should spend their money.

I am not naive enough to think that there aren't people who price an animal based on size, put a call out to the people in the circles that want to pay for that animal, and come to shoot it in a contained area. But there is also people that want to sleep on the rocky ground and hunt DG with pointy sticks. Once you put a value on something there will be both ends of the spectrum.

I truly believe that most people what an experience and it takes multiple guided hunts, for many different animals, in many different area (not just Africa), to get a idea of what they truly want out of a hunt.

Be safe.