Hunting SA or "Wild" Africa - Which is Better

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

These guys with 10-20 people in camp are hunting on various areas
Its a different model to how we operate. I have nothing against it
These outfitters probably have exclusive access to 20 different farms and have quotas on those areas that they need to meet for the season

The hole in the ear thing is blown way out of proportion. Could be from fighting and could be from a tag. This doesnt mean the animal is domesticated in anyway. Maybe it was tagged at sometime for a variety of diffetent reasons but may have been fending for itself in that area for the last 10 years.

I have seen pics of buff taken in zim amd zambia with “tag holes” in the ear

Stop pointing fingers at each other guys
Just enjoy the hunting

Ear tag holes in buffalo in zim, I think I will go out this afternoon and see how many I can spot.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

Since the wife says I am feral, doesn’t that make all my hunting wild?

safe hunting

 

[Philip Glass]

This thread should be called, "Africa has something for everyone."

I like this thought! I want to hunt every single bit of it.

 

[Tanks]

...While elephants, leopards, eland, and even lions don't have any problem crossing this barrier, many others are simply not capable. So, with those facts presented, does that, to you, mean that Botswana doesn't offer wild hunting?

If any of this came across as rant-like or ugly then I apologise to any who may be reading, and the moderators are more than welcome to remove my comment. But this notion that wild hunting doesn't exist in South Africa, even with all the information available now at our fingertips, is simply baffling.

My comments in regard to RSA and wild hunting are in the context of DG. So, by your definition Botswana offers wild hunting. How many of the lion hunts in RSA where you get to shoot your lion in 5 days after picking the type of mane etc, are wild? Or a sable or buffalo where you buy by the inch? I am willing to go out on an arrogant, pompous and snobbish limb and say close to zero.

I have seen the kind of fencing you are talking about, and you missed other Zim concessions like Sengwa Research area, those fences, where they exist, are more of boundary markers than actual high fencing that exist in RSA. I have seen sections trampled by elephants all along.

Again, I do not hesitate to recommend RSA for PG to new hunters or collectors here in the USA. Many flights, excellent lodges, abundance of exotic game, and family hunting/vacation spots, all very affordable for the hoi polloi

Speaking of RSA, my first visit was some 50+ years ago where I stayed at a family friend's ranch. A wonderful experience so much that even at that young age I wanted to buy a place there to retire when the time came. Of course, politics since then has made that impossible. My mother still loves it, she was at some vineyards outside of Cape Town at age 89, solo, last month though she also stayed in Johannesburg for a few days.

 

[PhotoCollector73]

"My comments in regard to RSA and wild hunting are in the context of DG."

I know, you've said it many times in the past. It isn't logical at all and only seems to be based on a visceral feeling, not at all based on facts.

How many of the lion hunts in RSA where you get to shoot your lion in 5 days after picking the type of mane etc, are wild?

???? The wild lion hunting that does actually occur is rarely ever that easy. You have to spend just as much time looking for a mature, representative lion as you would over the border. Hence the term 'wild.' You seem to be under the illusion that I think CBL lions count as wild? Newsflash: I don't.

Or a sable or buffalo where you buy by the inch?

I honestly don't even know what you're trying to get at here. Again, I don't think ranch hunting is in any way 'wild.' Please stop implying that I do because it comes across as desperate at best. And since you've brought up "inch hunting," how do you feel about the pricing on the weight of elephant tusks in almost every country where they're hunted? Do you just conveniently ignore those?

I am willing to go out on an arrogant, pompous and snobbish limb and say close to zero.

You're shouting your point into the empty void, as I never implied that ranch hunting was wild.

have seen the kind of fencing you are talking about, and you missed other Zim concessions like Sengwa Research area, those fences, where they exist, are more of boundary markers than actual high fencing that exist in RSA.

Newsflash: Those types of fences do, in fact, exist over here as well. The fence surrounding Kruger is a prime example. For the fourth time, I was never trying to make out as if high-fenced hunting in SA was wild. Did you even bother reading my post properly?

 

[Tanks]

I know, you've said it many times in the past. It isn't logical at all and only seems to be based on a visceral feeling, not at all based on facts.

...

I honestly don't even know what you're trying to get at here. Again, I don't think ranch hunting is in any way 'wild.' Please stop implying that I do because it comes across as desperate at best. And since you've brought up "inch hunting," how do you feel about the pricing on the weight of elephant tusks in almost every country where they're hunted? Do you just conveniently ignore those?

You're shouting your point into the empty void, as I never implied that ranch hunting was wild.

..., I was never trying to make out as if high-fenced hunting in SA was wild. Did you even bother reading my post properly?

First you say my comments about DG hunting in RSA were based on a visceral feeling and then keep saying you never said ranch hunting was wild. Well, all hunting in RSA is ranch hunting by law and the game are considered livestock (not that anything is wrong with that). By the way why do you think an exceptional buffalo bull stud sells for millions of dollars in RSA?

The only place I was given a price by the pound was Botswana and the outfitter waived that (John Calitz sp?) when I objected. In Zim etc. they mention poundage as what can be expected but I have not come across charges by the pound. If an outfitter tries to charge by the pound or by the inch, I would not hunt with them.

 

[0002S]

It's not uncommon to have a price for an animal up to 'x' inches and then have a $ amount for each 'x' after that. I've never seen or hunted anywhere, that they bring out the animal for viewing before hand and or set you up to guarantee you're going to see an animal over 'x'. I've never actually hunted anywhere that you even are guaranteed to see a near record level animal. About the most I would ever get is you're guaranteed an opportunity to shoot a trophy. Even then, there are usually caveats.

I have been hunting where, sitting in a blind or stalking, a guide/ph has told me that if I shoot that animal, it will probably score over the 'x' limit, and I would be responsible for the difference, on top of the animal's cost. They usually will tell me, it's a little larger than it measures out, unless they know I'm not concerned with a budget. I have passed on animals because, the value to trophy ratio wasn't appealing to me, for what ever reason, at that time. There have been other times I have opted to pay more. At no time was there ever a guarantee before I left the camp.

I've hunted these types of animals on no, low and high fenced. None of the animals acted different that others because there was an additional charge for the trophy based on size. None of them acted differently because of a man made or artificial boundary.

I will say that carefully managed property, that have introduced good genetics and culling practices will offer more opportunities for larger trophies than free range.

 

[Tanks]

It's not uncommon to have a price for an animal up to 'x' inches and then have a $ amount for each 'x' after that. I've never seen or hunted anywhere, that they bring out the animal for viewing before hand and or set you up to guarantee you're going to see an animal over 'x'. I've never actually hunted anywhere that you even are guaranteed to see a near record level animal. ...

You must not have seen the ads from some RSA outfitters on this very site. I also never said they bring out the animal for one's viewing.

BTW, it might not be uncommon in RSA but in "wild areas" that is very uncommon.

 

[MAdcox]

I like this thought! I want to hunt every single bit of it.

I will always love my first outfitters response when I ran into him in Dallas a few years after my first trip.
He knew I had booked my 3rd trip to a different country and asked when I was going to come back and hunt with him.
I know outfitting/hunting is competitive and in no way wanted him to think me not returning was personal- I told him he had shown me my first glimpse of Africa and now I wanted to see it all.
He smiled, put his hand on my shoulder, and said "Absolutely, see all of it you can. A lot of it is vanishing."

 

[flatwater bill]

Hunted Niassa in 2016.................Govt officials, poaching, motorbikes, kids herding goats, villagers milling about. It was still fun, but............Africa has 1.4 billion people.....and 11.7 million sq miles of land for a pop. density of 117 per. (The State that I live in has a density of 17). Be cautious of those who tell you that unfenced is the REAL Africa. There are a lot of people on this planet. My hunt in Damara Land on 1.5 million acres turned out to be 5000 acres accessible, with the usual Govt Concession officials shooting, driving, cute kids waiting for school, and goat herds. We'd all like to hunt the Africa of 1880, but it doesn't exist. Do your homework. Fences work both ways............good hunting.............FWB

 

[IvW]

Honestly, a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of your comments on this forum in regards to hunting 'wild Africa' or SA (because somehow the latter just doesn't count in your opinion) come across as pompous, arrogant, and downright snobbish. Yes, wild hunting DOES exist in South Africa. You just need to know where to find it as it admittedly isn't the norm, though that might change in the years to come. Fortunately, with the advent of social media, many more top-quality outfitters are now capable of selling their product on a much larger scale than they would just 15 years ago.

I was once under the impression that wild hunting simply didn't exist in South Africa until I found outfitters such as Coenraad Vermaak (Khamabab Kalahari Reserve), Shumba Safaris (their area in the A.P.N.R. adjacent to Kruger National Park), Chapungu Kambako (Kalahari Oryx Private Game Reserve), Wintershoek (pretty much all of their areas in the Northern Cape), and many more which all do, in fact, offer wild hunting in the country (note that I've never hunted with any of them and am not advertising for them). Now I know you probably think fences are all that distinguish 'wild' from 'put-and-take' but that simply isn't true. The Bubye Valley, Save Valley, and Waterberg Plateau all have some kind of fencing, yet are known for offering truly fair-chase and wild hunting.

Hell, the entire northern region of Botswana has a veterinary fence that cuts it off from the rest of the country, specifically to prevent F.M.D. from the buffalo herds in the north, from crossing over into the cattle herds in the south. While elephants, leopards, eland, and even lions don't have any problem crossing this barrier, many others are simply not capable. So, with those facts presented, does that, to you, mean that Botswana doesn't offer wild hunting?

If any of this came across as rant-like or ugly then I apologise to any who may be reading, and the moderators are more than welcome to remove my comment. But this notion that wild hunting doesn't exist in South Africa, even with all the information available now at our fingertips, is simply baffling.

Totally agree with your post....
I hit the ignore button a long time ago regarding comments from certain totally uninformed individuals who have the money to only hunt "wild Africa" and slam any hunting in SA....
There are many areas in SA where you can hunt among the big 5 and have lions cross your tracks....and all these areas have self sustaining herds and prides of lions(and no they were not released there a couple of weeks before you arrived) and have had for many years...

Some folks are just in a class of their own....

 

[John Wasmuth]

Totally agree with your post....
I hit the ignore button a long time ago regarding comments from certain totally uninformed individuals who have the money to only hunt "wild Africa" and slam any hunting in SA....
There are many areas in SA where you can hunt among the big 5 and have lions cross your tracks....and all these areas have self sustaining herds and prides of lions(and no they were not released there a couple of weeks before you arrived) and have had for many years...

Some folks are just in a class of their own....

One of the smarter things to do is in fact hitting the ignore button.

 

[375Fox]

It's not uncommon to have a price for an animal up to 'x' inches and then have a $ amount for each 'x' after that. I've never seen or hunted anywhere, that they bring out the animal for viewing before hand and or set you up to guarantee you're going to see an animal over 'x'. I've never actually hunted anywhere that you even are guaranteed to see a near record level animal. About the most I would ever get is you're guaranteed an opportunity to shoot a trophy. Even then, there are usually caveats.

I have been hunting where, sitting in a blind or stalking, a guide/ph has told me that if I shoot that animal, it will probably score over the 'x' limit, and I would be responsible for the difference, on top of the animal's cost. They usually will tell me, it's a little larger than it measures out, unless they know I'm not concerned with a budget. I have passed on animals because, the value to trophy ratio wasn't appealing to me, for what ever reason, at that time. There have been other times I have opted to pay more. At no time was there ever a guarantee before I left the camp.

I've hunted these types of animals on no, low and high fenced. None of the animals acted different that others because there was an additional charge for the trophy based on size. None of them acted differently because of a man made or artificial boundary.

I will say that carefully managed property, that have introduced good genetics and culling practices will offer more opportunities for larger trophies than free range.

Pretty easy to find the ads even on AH. The sable and buffalo breeding operations don’t allow their breeding bulls to die of old age. They are sold to hunting operations and transported. Genetics are definitely improving on many properties, but they are also regularly supplemented on many or outright placed for trophy hunting on some. Darting and measuring is also a common practice particularly on breeding bulls.

Lion Hunt South Africa Kalahari 2022 Starting At US$6,000

Hello Everybody. We wish that 2022 will be a prosperous and healthy year for everyone. Following numerous requests for our new lion specials for 2022 here they are. We tried to keep the prices the same as 2021 but had to take away the free pick up and drop off in Johannesburg and we had to...

www.africahunting.com

47 Inch Plus Buffalo Bull Hunt With TSALA HUNTING SAFARIS

Good Day Everyone Tsala Hunting Safaris would like to offer the AH community a hunt for this specific Bull. We estimate him to be 47"+ and don't have an exact measurement on him as its not a put and take bull.You are most welcome to add your estimation in the comments section.We think he...

www.africahunting.com

48.5 Inch Plus Sable Available For An AH Member With Bow Or Handgun

Kemp African Safaris has two monster sables available for hunting with bow or hand gun in the 2021 hunting season.Past breeding potential. estimated to reach 118 " sci number one with hand gun and top 5 with a bow Kemp African Safaris hunted a 47” new Nr #1 with cross bow 2018 45” new Nr...

www.africahunting.com

 

[PhotoCollector73]

First you say my comments about DG hunting in RSA were based on a visceral feeling and then keep saying you never said ranch hunting was wild. Well, all hunting in RSA is ranch hunting by law and the game are considered livestock (not that anything is wrong with that).

By "law" all game outside of protected areas in SA are considered livestock, yes. But the few wild hunting areas in the country aren't operated like that at all, despite that official rule. Honest question, would you seriously consider a 212k acre or 240k acre continuous game reserve to be a "ranch"? Because both of those exist... Khamabab and Kalahari Oryx both have self-sustaining populations of wild lions that act exactly as they would in Tanzania, and both reserves have an extremely limited off-take of no more than 2 per year. The A.P.N.R. is in the same league only the lions are free to move into the Kruger if pressured, just like the hunting concessions in Tanzania.

By the way why do you think an exceptional buffalo bull stud sells for millions of dollars in RSA?

Because it was obviously bred to be big but again, I don't consider that to be wild hunting. Those sorts of operations have their own purpose.

The only place I was given a price by the pound was Botswana and the outfitter waived that (John Calitz sp?) when I objected.

Johan Calitz doesn't make up the prices himself, it's all done by the game department. I think they're well within their right to that, as Botswana consistently produces the biggest elephants annually, and they obviously want to capitalize on that selling point. Sure, it might rub you the wrong way but those price points are all done for anti-poaching, community upliftment, and much more.

In Zim etc. they mention poundage as what can be expected but I have not come across charges by the pound.

Zim has its own way of doing things and it's been working very well for them. That doesn't mean it will work well for everyone else. This is another thing I've noticed you do in the past, that being to compare what one country does to another, then act baffled as to why they're not the same.

If an outfitter tries to charge by the pound or by the inch, I would not hunt with them.

Well then that's your choice and I respect that.

 

[IvW]

Pretty easy to find the ads even on AH. The sable and buffalo breeding operations don’t allow their breeding bulls to die of old age. They are sold to hunting operations and transported. Genetics are definitely improving on many properties, but they are also regularly supplemented on many or outright placed for trophy hunting on some. Darting and measuring is also a common practice particularly on breeding bulls.

Lion Hunt South Africa Kalahari 2022 Starting At US$6,000

Hello Everybody. We wish that 2022 will be a prosperous and healthy year for everyone. Following numerous requests for our new lion specials for 2022 here they are. We tried to keep the prices the same as 2021 but had to take away the free pick up and drop off in Johannesburg and we had to...

www.africahunting.com

47 Inch Plus Buffalo Bull Hunt With TSALA HUNTING SAFARIS

Good Day Everyone Tsala Hunting Safaris would like to offer the AH community a hunt for this specific Bull. We estimate him to be 47"+ and don't have an exact measurement on him as its not a put and take bull.You are most welcome to add your estimation in the comments section.We think he...

www.africahunting.com

48.5 Inch Plus Sable Available For An AH Member With Bow Or Handgun

Kemp African Safaris has two monster sables available for hunting with bow or hand gun in the 2021 hunting season.Past breeding potential. estimated to reach 118 " sci number one with hand gun and top 5 with a bow Kemp African Safaris hunted a 47” new Nr #1 with cross bow 2018 45” new Nr...

www.africahunting.com

That may well be so....but assuming that all SA operations follow this practice can only be believed by uninformed fools.....

 

[375Fox]

There are many areas in SA where you can hunt among the big 5 and have lions cross your tracks....and all these areas have self sustaining herds and prides of lions(and no they were not released there a couple of weeks before you arrived) and have had for many years...

Some folks are just in a class of their own....

There is always an attempt to present South Africa as more wild than it is including your post. There are a few very large well managed reserves and some hunting along Kruger park boundary, not many as you describe. This hunting would compare to any unfenced hunting anywhere else in Africa, but it’s the exception in South Africa not the rule. Most South African hunting properties are 3000-15000 acres and are heavily managed, very different experience to wild concession areas. Present it for what it is accurately, shouldn’t be difficult for someone who claims to be a highly experienced PH and hunted thousands of dangerous game animals seemingly everywhere in Africa (without any photos).

 

[PhotoCollector73]

Present it for what it is accurately, shouldn’t be difficult for someone who claims to be a highly experienced PH and hunted thousands of dangerous game animals seemingly everywhere in Africa (without any photos).

Was that really necessary?

 

[IvW]

There is always an attempt to present South Africa as more wild than it is including your post. There are a few very large well managed reserves and some hunting along Kruger park boundary, not many as you describe. This hunting would compare to any unfenced hunting anywhere else in Africa, but it’s the exception in South Africa not the rule. Most South African hunting properties are 3000-15000 acres and are heavily managed, very different experience to wild concession areas. Present it for what it is accurately, shouldn’t be difficult for someone who claims to be a highly experienced PH and hunted thousands of dangerous game animals seemingly everywhere in Africa (without any photos).

So you believe posting photo's of clients with DG animals they hunted while being guided by myself(of which I have no permission to do) or photo's of PAC animals killed is needed to comment or prove a point??

 

[PARA45]

Hunt a leopard/lion from a blind = sporty
Hunt a captive bread lion on foot = not sporty
Hunt a buffalo or plains game on a 20,000K fenced property = not sporty
Hunt with a non-controlled fed rifle = not suitable for dangerous game because is not control fed, you will end up dead some day
Hunt with a Blaser which is not controlled fed = great rifle for dangerous game and everything in between
Hunt white tail deer from a stand = not hunting
Hunt African plains game from an elevated platform = sporty
Hunt in camo clothing = not sporty, you're a redneck
Hunt in khaki, green, etc. clothing = sporty
Hunt with X, Y Z bullets = not sporty because you heard or read that those bullets suck
Hunts with A, B, C bullets = You are the sh*t because you hunt with the best bullets

We are our worst enemy. Respect and be respected. Accept that not everyone can afford to hunt those true "wild" areas.

 

[375Fox]

So you believe posting photo's of clients with DG animals they hunted while being guided by myself(of which I have no permission to do) or photo's of PAC animals killed is needed to comment or prove a point??

I don’t think you could do anything at this point to make me think you are what you claim. I’ll eagerly await PMs from your thousands of past clients telling me I am wrong.