First Dangerous Game Rifle - Struggling to decide

[Bonk]

Correct however it is not the clients job to stop a charge he needs a rifle and cartridge to place the first shot in the right place.....

I agree.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

No.....

I've been trying to learn as much about Africa as possible the past two years. I'm pretty sure the .458 Win Mag was dubbed the "Wounder Wonder"

 

[IvW]

I've been trying to learn as much about Africa as possible the past two years. I'm pretty sure the .458 Win Mag was dubbed the "Wounder Wonder"

Very appropriate dubbing....many better cartridges even 375....

 

[Viral_SIGness]

This is a great response and I appreciate you for taking the time to add in the hard data. This is what newcomers to these forums look for. And not the anecdotal "evidence" of my buddy's neighbors friend heard from his cousin that some guy on a forum shot a buffalo and it wasn't enough lol.

I have never hunted a cape but I have taken a water buffalo in Argentina with a compound bow. In all honesty I'm a firm believer of a hole in the heart or lungs is a hole in the heart or lungs. Regardless of how much gun powder is behind it. But you are right that extra sauce helps with the bone structure. Well I need to send my marlin rep a email because there website claims the 45-70 is for T-rex. Clearly he's lying.

The .45-70 is good for deer, nostalgia, and wannabe cowboys lol Maybe bears, but bears don't have thick skin or thick bones (other than the skull).

 

[Professor Mawla]

Has the .458 Win Mag overcame all its failures with newer and better powders?

@Viral_SIGness
As someone who ACTUALLY USES A .458 Winchester Magnum against dangerous game ( for the last 44 years ) , I can definitely say “ Yes “ without a doubt . Anyone who claims otherwise :
A ) Cannot shoot properly .
B ) Never even fired a .458 Winchester Magnum .
C ) Is basing their claims on antiquated data , which was accumulated over three decades ago .

I use 500 grain Nosler Partition soft nosed factory loads for hunting marauding Royal Bengal tigers , Asiatic leopards and Asian sloth bears . For hunting rogue Asiatic jungle elephants and Gaur , I currently prefer hand loaded Ken Stewart copper jacketed flat nosed 500 grain solids .

 

[IvW]

458 WM could never achieve and can still not achieve what it was designed to do...those who do simple do not know the comparison to other DG cartridges...talking African DG up to and including elephant....yes they will quote in particular Richard Harland, used it in a MS, thats what was availible, fresh rounds, ....personnal friend of mine....you want the facts pm me....
Read about the rifle, check the barrel length and get back to me.....
For his personal back up during times as a PH he prefered using his 505 Gibbs not the MS 458WM...
In the same recoil category there are many cartridges that outperform the 458WM simple as that.....
If you used a 458WM all your life of corse you would think it is the cats whiskers...off course you do not realise how many more better cartridges are availible...
How many modern day DG professionals still use this ineffective caliber? I am talking people who regularly hunt DG especially buff and elephant....? Very few....458 Lott yes and the ones who hunt elephant regularly not 1 a year step up to 500 calibers....

 

[Professor Mawla]

Let us sort out the simple contradictions first , shall we ? Mr . Richard Harland ( author of “ Ndlovu : The Art Of Hunting The African Elephant “ ) and I have exchanged correspondence on several occasions . He prefers the .458 Winchester Magnum over the .505 Gibbs . Below , are his own words in a letter which he wrote to me . I wonder why your “ personal friend “ told you something which he himself is denying now ? Mr . Richard Harland is a true gentleman and extremely honest and forthcoming about his dangerous game hunting experiences .

Mr . Harland used three different dangerous game calibres , during his career :
1) . 458 Winchester Magnum
2 ) .500/465 Holland & Holland ( mostly during the 1970s )
3 ) .505 Gibbs

Amongst all three of them , the .458 Winchester Magnum remains his favorite to this day ( or at least two months ago , which was the last time that he and I wrote to each other ) . His department issued .458 Winchester Magnum ( an early pattern control round feed Mannlicher Schoenauer ) is the the only rifle in this calibre which Mr . Harland has Owned . He also owned a custom .458 Winchester Magnum which was built on an early pattern control round feed Fabrique Nationale Mauser Model 98 action ( the kind with the bolt guide ) . This is his favorite rifle . Mr . Harland’s rifles now belong to his friends , the Mavros family .

Aside from Mr . Harland , here are some African professional hunters ( or game department officers ) who have secured African elephants in the three or four figure sums by using the .458 Winchester Magnum :
1 ) John Coleman ( a personal friend of mine )
2 ) Terry Irwin
3 ) Ron Thompson
4 ) Paul Grobler
5 ) Ken Worseley
6 ) Mike LaGrange
7 ) Ken Clarke
8 ) Barry Ducksworth

My personal .458 Winchester Magnum employs a 25 inch Douglas barrel . 70 grains of IMR 3031 propellant powder can push a 500 grain Woodleigh round nosed steel jacketed solid bullet at a velocity of 2100 feet per second . This is more than enough for any dangerous game on the planet . Yes , modern day hunters do not generally like the .458 Winchester Magnum . But their opinions are largely based on whatever hunting magazines magazines are printing . Or paper ballistics . During our time , we did not have too many hunting magazines or ballistics charts . We actually based our experience on field use .

Aside from the .458 Winchester Magnum , I have also employed ( or trialed ) the following calibres on dangerous game :
1 ) 9.3 x 62 mm Mauser
2 ) 9.3 x 74 mm Rimmed
3 ) .375 Holland & Holland Magnum
4 ) .416 Remington Magnum
5 ) .505 Gibbs

All are excellent . The .505 Gibbs definitely outperforms the .458 Winchester Magnum . But there is absolutely no doubt that the .458 Winchester Magnum is more than adequate .

If you do not like the .458 Winchester Magnum , then do not use one . The choices in this world are sufficiently varied for everyone’s tastes . But to say that it is inherently ineffective , is an overtly critical blanket statement at best . Or pure ignorance at worst .

 

[IvW]

How long was thebarrel on his MS?
Why did he use hand liads?

 

[IvW]

Anybody thinks the standard 458WM with a 22-24 barrel with factory ammo is the way to go.. hell who am I to argue...go for it...
Personally I prefer my 500 Jeff when hunting or guiding in elephant territory..

 

[Professor Mawla]

Excuse me ? You hand load too , for your .500 Jeffery . Mr . Harland’s department issued .458 Winchester Magnum ( the Mannlicher Schoenauer ) employed a 26 inch barrel . This is because Mannlicher refused to built any rifles in this calibre , which employed barrels shorter than 26 inches ( in order to ensure that the correct velocity is always guaranteed ) . But his personally owned .458 Winchester Magnum ( the one which was gifted to him by an American client and built on an early pattern Fabrique Nationale Mauser Model 98 action ) employs a 24 inch barrel .

Mr . Harland did not begin to hand load for the .458 Winchester Magnum until 2006 ( shortly before retiring ) . During his heyday of elephant hunting , he used department issued Winchester Super Speed 500 grain round nosed steel jacketed solid factory loads ( the yellow box which advertised the velocity as 2130 feet per second ) for hunting African elephants in the Rhodesian corridors .

Yes ; in barrels as short as 22 inches , I admit that the fluctuations in velocity for the .458 Winchester Magnum are problematic . But in a rifle with a barrel larger than 23 inches , these problems are nonexistent ( assuming of course , that you employ proper ammunition ) .

The .458 Winchester Magnum acquired it’s horrible reputation during the 1970s . I was there and was hunting dangerous game with this calibre at that time . I know exactly what problems the calibre was experiencing .

Should anyone wish to limit themselves to factory loaded ammunition for the .458 Winchester Magnum , then I would always encourage them to look to the 500 grain Nosler Partition soft nosed factory load and the 480 grain Labor Fur Ballistik flat nosed steel jacketed solid factory load .

 

[C.W. Richter]

Again it's used by practically every Yukon and NWT guide for grizzly bear protection. Grizzly is much larger then any African cat. I can understand elephants and rhinos are a whole other beast. But I am curious to understand why it's taken down more grizzly and polar bears then any other caliber. But wouldn't be good for a lion or a cape. And the action itself is great for quick reloads etc.

American animals (even big bear) are much thinner-skinned than most African game. If you read Kevin Robertson's Africa's Most Dangerous, you will learn why (he doesn't even recommend the .458 Win Mag, and for his stated reasons and my prior experience-the range is severely curtailed, and it Trumps a 45-70.) In a pinch, you must be able to put and push a (follow-up) solid transversely through something that is going to kill you. Solids-only on Elephant, Hippo and Rhino. That's a task ill-advised with an 1800s bison round. It severely lacks the V necessary to penetrate using the required 450-510 gr slug. Some history buffs have used the larger-cased 1800s lever .458s with some success on (close range) DG hunting. If your PH likes to dust off his .500 stopping gun, I'm certain it'll work wonders!

 

[Thumper Mcgee]

i

I read this over and over here when discussing calibers. Why not get an adequate caliber (not the minimum required), so that you are not putting your life in your guide's hands in a worst case scenario? Be in charge of your own destiny.

If recoil/accuracy is an issue, most hunts are booked a year or more in advance which gives one plenty of time to practice and be proficient with one's firearm.

i agree. the question was can you use it, which you definitely can. however I think anyone with common sense and a right mind would choose not to use one

 

[Viral_SIGness]

The .458 Win Mag could barely muster 1800 fps in the beginning. Even now in a 24", it can barely get 2000. Thats the reality as I understand it, and why I feel much better and safer, with a .375 Ruger, that can actually meet its advertised velocities.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

i

i agree. the question was can you use it, which you definitely can. however I think anyone with common sense and a right mind would choose not to use one

300 grain VRG-3 at 2550 from a .375 H&H. Broke both shoulders on a buffalo, along with destroying the heart. Bullet stopped as a bulge in the offside skin. Dont tell me a .375 is just the minimum. A 9.3x62 will kill buffalo.

 

[BourbonTrail]

This thread is why we can’t have nice things

 

[Tanks]

This thread is why we can’t have nice things

Anytime the caliber for DG comes up you will have responses from 2 groups along with sub-groups of favorites in each group.

Group A: .375 is the end all for everything after all "you will miss the target with any larger caliber".
Group B: .4XX+ is what one needs for DG "the rat calibers are not suited".

 

[Chago]

I have no plan on hunting cape with a 45-70. Was just asking the question as to why. In my head it seemed comparable to bison and polar bears. But clearly some have given some great data as to why. To me a lever just made great sense for rapid follow ups. But apparently they are only for wannabe cowboys. I suppose bolts are for wannabe snipers and semi autos for wannabe rambos.

 

[John J]

Whatever caliber you choose for your first Buffalo hunt, I would say have a scope on the rifle. Make sure it feeds and functions flawlessly and use quality ammo. I used a scoped 375 H&H. 30- 40 yard distance, one shot the bull whirled and was gone. I was able to see the hit and reaction in the scope. Didn't have a chance for another shot. Almost makes the case I could have used my Ruger No 1 450 400. Death bellow flowed shortly after. My other bit of advice, practice as much as you can. I can shoot and I did practice, 2 rounds 2 DG animals in the salt. But they were not perfectly placed, I could have done better. I was slightly disappointed in my shooting. I did ask PH about the 458 Win and he didn't have an issue with it for any DG animals. He was thrilled when I pulled out a 375 as my primary rifle. He had no worries with a 375 for Ele as well. John

 

[HWL]

How long was the barrel on his MS?
Why did he use hand loads?

Standard barrel length of the Mannlicher-Schoenauer was 65 cm/25,6".

It is said, the company never sold a shorter one, because they were aware of the fact, the .458 needs this barrel length to perform reliably.

Cannot imagine, Mr. Harland shortend it, for whatever reason.

Just my two cents...

HWL

 

[BeeMaa]

Anytime the caliber for DG comes up you will have responses from 2 groups along with sub-groups of favorites in each group.

Group A: .375 is the end all for everything after all "you will miss the target with any larger caliber".
Group B: .4XX+ is what one needs for DG "the rat calibers are not suited".

Let's not forget the dreaded PF vs. CRF debate from earlier.
Throw in double rifles and single shots and now it's getting good.

Also not to be left out...
Non-rimmed vs. rimmed cartridges in a double rifles.
Having an O/U vs. SxS on a DG caliber double rifle.
Using a "belted" magnum vs. rimless cartridge in a bolt gun.

Pick whatever (legal) caliber/rifle combo you want.
Get good at using it...no I mean REALLY good.
Go hunting.
You are the client, not the PH.
As long as you stay in your lane and make good shots, it will be fine.

Now then...