First Dangerous Game Rifle - Struggling to decide

[Tanks]

...
You are the client, not the PH.
As long as you stay in your lane and make good shots, it will be fine.
...

Seems like a Group A comment to me.

 

[Professor Mawla]

The .458 Win Mag could barely muster 1800 fps in the beginning. Even now in a 24", it can barely get 2000. Thats the reality as I understand it, and why I feel much better and safer, with a .375 Ruger, that can actually meet its advertised velocities.

@Viral_SIGness

I have never had the good fortune to use the .375 Ruger ( yet ) , but I have only heard good things about it . And therefore , I strongly endorse your choice .

I do however , wish to clear a few of your misconceptions about the .458 Winchester Magnum . Here is an excellent article on the calibre by the late Finn Aagaard , who was widely known for being as unbiased an arms author as they came .

An HP White laboratory report in 1961 ( only five years after the introduction of the .458 Winchester Magnum ) chronographed the velocity of Winchester Super Speed 500 grain round nosed steel jacketed solid factory loads ( fired from a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 “ African “ which employed a 25 inch barrel ) as 2087 feet per second . During this time , the .458 Winchester Magnum factory loads ( offered by Winchester & Remington ) boasted an advertised velocity of 2130 feet per second . It must be borne in mind that the pre 64 Winchester Model 70 rifles ( in .458 Winchester Magnum ) employed a substantially long throat . This long throat was responsible for fair loss in velocity . In other .458 Winchester Magnum rifles of this era ( such as the Fabrique Nationale Mausers or my own custom Enfield Model 1917 action .458 Winchester Magnum ) , the chamber throat is / was far shorter . Which is why noticeably better velocities could be attained from them .

The .458 Winchester Magnum had a few unsavory things going against it , from the get go . Things which could easily be avoided . To begin with ( 1956 to 1972 ) , both Winchester and Remington were using ball powders in their factory ammunition . In a short Magnum case like the .458 Winchester Magnum’s , the ball powder had to be severely compressed in order to attain a velocity above 2040 feet per second . Now , ball powder is an extremely unsuitable powder for compressing . It conceals over time and forms solid clumps . In freshly manufactured factory ammunition , this was ( obviously not a problem ) . But in the case of ammunition which had been loaded and was sitting in storage for more than a year or two , the operator would usually experience ignition issues since some of the propellant would not get ignited . This is what led to the loss of velocity .

What Winchester & Remington should have done during this time , was switch to an extruded propellant immediately . Instead , they looked at the wrong solution . They ( from 1972 onwards ) reduced the powder charge in their .458 Winchester Magnum . If you look at Winchester and Remington catalogs from the year 1972 onwards , then you shall see that they suddenly began to advertise the velocity of their .458 Winchester Magnum factory loads as 2040 feet per second . This time , even freshly loaded factory ammunition was performing unimpressively .

There was another problem which the .458 Winchester Magnum had faced during the 1970s . During this time , Hornady was sourcing the .458 Winchester Magnum ( and .375 Holland & Holland Magnum ) bullets for both Winchester and Remington . Between 1963 and 1979 , Hornady had replaced the steel jackets of their full metal jacket bullets with a cupronickel jacket . As a result , the .458 Winchester Magnum full metal jacket solids ( be it in factory loads or hand loads ) received a horrible reputation for distorting when used against elephants or Cape buffaloes or Gaur or rhinoceroses

From 1980 to 1992 , Hornady briefly returned to using copper clad steel jackets on their full metal jacket bullets . Now , the penetration was greatly improved in hand loaded ammunition . But Winchester & Remington continued to use reduced charges of propellant in their .458 Winchester Magnum factory loaded ammunition , which led to continued reports of poor penetration and velocity .

From 1985 until the time when the company had permanently ceased operations , A Square used to load their .458 Winchester Magnum factory ammunition with 465 grain naval bronze monolithic solids . The advertised velocity was 2200 feet per second , but shelf life issues had became prevalent once once loaded ammunition were stored for more than three years .

From 1992 to 2005 , Federal began to offer their 500 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft nosed factory loads and their 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer brass jacketed flat nosed factory loads with an advertised velocity of 2150 feet per second . When I originally authored my book in 1994 , I had actually trialed Federal’s Trophy Bonded line by firing this ammunition over a chronograph . The velocity was indeed 2139 feet per second . And I spoke quite highly of Federal’s .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition in my book . Unfortunately , the shelf life problems still existed in ammunition which had been stored for more than a few years . Currently , Federal advertises the velocity of their 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solids as 1950 feet per second . This is far too low and unacceptable for dangerous game , based upon my experience . Their 500 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft nosed factory loads claim and advertised velocity of 2090 feet per second and I personally find this to be quite acceptable for hunting marauding Royal Bengal tigers , Asiatic leopards or Asian sloth bears .

In modern times , ammunition companies have come to realize that extruded propellants work far better in compressed loads than ball propellants . Nosler’s 500 grain Partition loading and Norma’s 500 grain Swift A Frame factory loads both boast an advertised velocity of 2100 feet per second . I have run the 500 grain Nosler Partition soft nosed factory loads through a chronograph . The actual velocity is indeed 2091 feet per second . Labor Fur Ballistik offers a 480 grain flat nosed tombac jacketed solid factory load , which boasts an advertised velocity of 2247 feet per second . I assure you that this ammunition will definitely NOT glance off an elephant’s skull or shoulder bone .

A final factor which must be borne in mind , is that not all .458 Winchester Magnum cases hold the same amount of propellant ( even though they look identical to one another outwardly ) . Remington cases held less propellant than Winchester cases , which in turn held less propellant than Federal cases , which in turn held less propellant than A Square cases . Based upon my personal hand loading experiences , I have personally found Nosler brass cases to be absolutely unsurpassed for the .458 Winchester Magnum .

 

[Viral_SIGness]

I have no plan on hunting cape with a 45-70. Was just asking the question as to why. In my head it seemed comparable to bison and polar bears. But clearly some have given some great data as to why. To me a lever just made great sense for rapid follow ups. But apparently they are only for wannabe cowboys. I suppose bolts are for wannabe snipers and semi autos for wannabe rambos.

If you think a polar bear is comparable to a Cape Buffalo, you better stay home. Polar bears do not have 2" thick skin. Don't get me wrong, I love the .45-70. I just don't think it has a place in Africa.

@Viral_SIGness

I have never had the good fortune to use the .375 Ruger ( yet ) , but I have only heard good things about it . And therefore , I strongly endorse your choice .

I do however , wish to clear a few of your misconceptions about the .458 Winchester Magnum . Here is an excellent article on the calibre by the late Finn Aagaard , who was widely known for being as unbiased an arms author as they came .
View attachment 387147View attachment 387148View attachment 387149View attachment 387150View attachment 387151View attachment 387152

An HP White laboratory report in 1961 ( only five years after the introduction of the .458 Winchester Magnum ) chronographed the velocity of Winchester Super Speed 500 grain round nosed steel jacketed solid factory loads ( fired from a pre 64 Winchester Model 70 “ African “ which employed a 25 inch barrel ) as 2087 feet per second . During this time , the .458 Winchester Magnum factory loads ( offered by Winchester & Remington ) boasted an advertised velocity of 2130 feet per second . It must be borne in mind that the pre 64 Winchester Model 70 rifles ( in .458 Winchester Magnum ) employed a substantially long throat . This long throat was responsible for fair loss in velocity . In other .458 Winchester Magnum rifles of this era ( such as the Fabrique Nationale Mausers or my own custom Enfield Model 1917 action .458 Winchester Magnum ) , the chamber throat is / was far shorter . Which is why noticeably better velocities could be attained from them .

The .458 Winchester Magnum had a few unsavory things going against it , from the get go . Things which could easily be avoided . To begin with ( 1956 to 1972 ) , both Winchester and Remington were using ball powders in their factory ammunition . In a short Magnum case like the .458 Winchester Magnum’s , the ball powder had to be severely compressed in order to attain a velocity above 2040 feet per second . Now , ball powder is an extremely unsuitable powder for compressing . It conceals over time and forms solid clumps . In freshly manufactured factory ammunition , this was ( obviously not a problem ) . But in the case of ammunition which had been loaded and was sitting in storage for more than a year or two , the operator would usually experience ignition issues since some of the propellant would not get ignited . This is what led to the loss of velocity .

What Winchester & Remington should have done during this time , was switch to an extruded propellant immediately . Instead , they looked at the wrong solution . They ( from 1972 onwards ) reduced the powder charge in their .458 Winchester Magnum . If you look at Winchester and Remington catalogs from the year 1972 onwards , then you shall see that they suddenly began to advertise the velocity of their .458 Winchester Magnum factory loads as 2040 feet per second . This time , even freshly loaded factory ammunition was performing unimpressively .

There was another problem which the .458 Winchester Magnum had faced during the 1970s . During this time , Hornady was sourcing the .458 Winchester Magnum ( and .375 Holland & Holland Magnum ) bullets for both Winchester and Remington . Between 1963 and 1979 , Hornady had replaced the steel jackets of their full metal jacket bullets with a cupronickel jacket . As a result , the .458 Winchester Magnum full metal jacket solids ( be it in factory loads or hand loads ) received a horrible reputation for distorting when used against elephants or Cape buffaloes or Gaur or rhinoceroses

From 1980 to 1992 , Hornady briefly returned to using copper clad steel jackets on their full metal jacket bullets . Now , the penetration was greatly improved in hand loaded ammunition . But Winchester & Remington continued to use reduced charges of propellant in their .458 Winchester Magnum factory loaded ammunition , which led to continued reports of poor penetration and velocity .

From 1985 until the time when the company had permanently ceased operations , A Square used to load their .458 Winchester Magnum factory ammunition with 465 grain naval bronze monolithic solids . The advertised velocity was 2200 feet per second , but shelf life issues had became prevalent once once loaded ammunition were stored for more than three years .

From 1992 to 2005 , Federal began to offer their 500 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft nosed factory loads and their 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer brass jacketed flat nosed factory loads with an advertised velocity of 2150 feet per second . When I originally authored my book in 1994 , I had actually trialed Federal’s Trophy Bonded line by firing this ammunition over a chronograph . The velocity was indeed 2139 feet per second . And I spoke quite highly of Federal’s .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition in my book . Unfortunately , the shelf life problems still existed in ammunition which had been stored for more than a few years . Currently , Federal advertises the velocity of their 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solids as 1950 feet per second . This is far too low and unacceptable for dangerous game , based upon my experience . Their 500 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft nosed factory loads claim and advertised velocity of 2090 feet per second and I personally find this to be quite acceptable for hunting marauding Royal Bengal tigers , Asiatic leopards or Asian sloth bears .

In modern times , ammunition companies have come to realize that extruded propellants work far better in compressed loads than ball propellants . Nosler’s 500 grain Partition loading and Norma’s 500 grain Swift A Frame factory loads both boast an advertised velocity of 2100 feet per second . I have run the 500 grain Nosler Partition soft nosed factory loads through a chronograph . The actual velocity is indeed 2091 feet per second . Labor Fur Ballistik offers a 480 grain flat nosed tombac jacketed solid factory load , which boasts an advertised velocity of 2247 feet per second . I assure you that this ammunition will definitely NOT glance off an elephant’s skull or shoulder bone .

A final factor which must be borne in mind , is that not all .458 Winchester Magnum cases hold the same amount of propellant ( even though they look identical to one another outwardly ) . Remington cases held less propellant than Winchester cases , which in turn held less propellant than Federal cases , which in turn held less propellant than A Square cases . Based upon my personal hand loading experiences , I have personally found Nosler brass cases to be absolutely unsurpassed for the .458 Winchester Magnum .

I'm always up for learning, and I thank you for taking the time to post what you did.

 

[HWL]

Let's not forget the dreaded PF vs. CRF debate from earlier.
Throw in double rifles and single shots and now it's getting good.

Also not to be left out...
Non-rimmed vs. rimmed cartridges in a double rifles.
Having an O/U vs. SxS on a DG caliber double rifle.
Using a "belted" magnum vs. rimless cartridge in a bolt gun.

Pick whatever (legal) caliber/rifle combo you want.
Get good at using it...no I mean REALLY good.
Go hunting.
You are the client, not the PH.
As long as you stay in your lane and make good shots, it will be fine.

Now then...

The worst case is a push feed Blaser R8 in a belted .458 Win-Mag....

You will die before you touched it!



HWL

 

[D.M.V]

Have a ruger #1 in 458. I like to wear a linen suit and a pith helmet when I bring it to the range then I relax in my canvas tent afterwards

 

[HWL]

Have a ruger #1 in 458. I like to wear a linen suit and a pith helmet when I bring it to the range then I relax in my canvas tent afterwards

First you have to rechamber it to .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express!!!

And than, pictures please.

HWL

 

[TTundra]

If you think a polar bear is comparable to a Cape Buffalo, you better stay home. Polar bears do not have 2" thick skin. Don't get me wrong, I love the .45-70. I just don't think it has a place in Africa.

Guessing you meant to say DG. The 45-70 absolutely has a place to hunt Africa, and I've been with hunters while there who have done very well with it on PG. Arguably has even a better place in Africa than in the US with the abundance and variety of game you can hunt on a daily basis.

The 45-70 vs DG has it's own thread, but yes, hunters have done it. That's a client PH decision/agreement.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

The worst case is a push feed Blaser R8 in a belted .458 Win-Mag....

You will die before you touched it!



HWL

As far as PF vs CRF, I've always been a fan of Rugers. No idea why it would be useful, but you can rechamber a CRF hanging upside down. Buff up those Tacti-cool ninja skills. Just imaging how fast you could reload that .45-70 while upside down

 

[HWL]

Just imaging how fast you could reload that .45-70 while upside down...

Nothing wrong with the .45-70 government.......

Enter the Minefield of Double Rifles from Baikal

Sometimes, archeologists dig even in gun shops, and so I did. I fund a box, covered with dust since 2008. I suscected a treasure and payed 599 €. Indeed, the gun was untouched...... and I went into the Loading Room. Will it become an "African Rifle" or just another toy, good for...

www.africahunting.com

HWL

 

[Scott CWO]

What is the difference between a marauding Bengal Tiger and a Bengal Tiger?

 

[Professor Mawla]

What is the difference between a marauding Bengal Tiger and a Bengal Tiger?

@Scott CWO
“ Marauding “ means a Royal Bengal tiger which has turned man eater .

 

[Scott CWO]

@Scott CWO
“ Marauding “ means a Royal Bengal tiger which has turned man eater .

Yes I know. You always write “marauding” as if a different species so I was just teasing you.

 

[Professor Mawla]

Yes I know. You always write “marauding” as if a different species so I was just teasing you.

@Scott CWO
No harm done . I HAVE to mention the word “ marauding “ , because the hunting of Royal Bengal tigers for sport has been unfortunately banned in my country since 1973 . One could face seven years of imprisonment for illegally killing a Royal Bengal tiger ( which the court has not formally declared to be a marauder ) . There are plenty of anti hunters who regularly patrol this website and I would not like any of them to bring any accusations against me , that I have been hunting ordinary Royal Bengal tigers ( after 1973 , that is ) . A similar incident occurred with one of my colleagues , who also used to post on AH forums . And it almost got him into a great deal of trouble with the law enforcement . As many members of this forum are aware , I have authored a book in 1994 where I wrote that I have not hunted a non marauding Royal Bengal tiger , since 1973 . The book is quite popular amongst the hunting community in my part of the world . But whatever I write on these forums , should match with whatever I have written on my book . Anti hunters are always searching for ammunition to put law abiding hunters in problems , even in my part of the world .

The average Royal Bengal tiger will typically go out of it’s way to avoid man , while a marauder is willing to swim for miles just so that it may find a human settlement .

 

[mark-hunter]

@Scott CWO

With great courtesy of our Bangladesh forum members, I have learned about several cat species, and few other facts:
Forest panther, or forest leopard, bigger then the other varieties
Village panther, similar in appearance, a smaller variety
Cloud leopard, even smaller, rarely a man eater.
Snow leopard, in the northern hills of country, Himalaya

Then, speaking of marauding Bengal tiger, an interesting fact was mentioned, and probably the same applies for leopard. Locally,in India an Bangladesh it is recorded the largest number of marauding cats, man eaters in the World, (compared to African cats, or south american jaguars) especially in Sundarban forest.
The fact of man eating cats high occurrence is confirmed also in wikipedia, in an article of Sundardban forest. And the reasons for this, have been well explained few times on the forum, by our Bangladesh forum members.

Unfortunately, high number of marauding occurrences will give occasional chance to hunt them down by local hunters in Bangladesh, with govt approval, only after all other resources are tried without success (tranquilizing, relocation etc)

 

[IvW]

What will penetrate better, a 12.5gr AAA shotgun pellet travelling at 1181 fps or a .22 40gr bullet @ 1200 fps or a .22 30gr bullet @ 1640 fps? All being of lead construction.

 

[SkullKeeper]

To beat a thoroughly beaten dead horse...

I am new here, but I have been combing this site for over a year. However, it has led to me being completely overwhelmed by the shear number of DG cartridges. So, I would like to ask for some more (in)direction.

My situation:
I am a ways out from any DG trips, and I want to get a DG caliber rifle to start practicing.
I currently shoot a 300wby and have shot a 50 BMG, but a 30# gun doesn’t really give me much of an apples to apples compare. However, I am pretty sturdy and don’t think recoil will be a big issue nor rifle weight.
Prior to being enlightened by the AH forum I only considered the 416 Rigby, but now I am torn between a 375, 416, 404, and 450/458. The 500 Jeff looks intense, but I really enjoyed the 50 BMG. (I am not looking at doubles currently).
I do think the 375 sounds versatile and like a lateral move in terms of recoil, but I don’t particularly like feeling under gunned.
I know that I want a dedicated DG rifle and to also hunt elephant at some point. Would my original choice (416 Rigby) be the best gateway dru...err I mean caliber? Or should I give something else a more serious look?

Respectfully,
BourbonTrail

From a practicality standpoint (let’s face it, you most likely won’t buy just one DG rifle in your lifetime and be completely satisfied with just that one !) you should start with a true do-all. My vote would be a 416 Rigby or better yet a 458 Lott. Cartridges are easy to obtain and those 2 calibers are excellent resellers. You’ve got to get your feet wet and you can start easily with a rifle for under $2K. Keep it or put it up for adoption at any point in time with no worries. Light the fuse and make that happen for yourself sooner than later. You won’t regret it - but just be prepared for the addiction of the big bore rifle.

 

[mark-hunter]

What will penetrate better, a 12.5gr AAA shotgun pellet travelling at 1181 fps or a .22 40gr bullet @ 1200 fps or a .22 30gr bullet @ 1640 fps? All being of lead construction.

I am not sure, I follow this question, in this thread?

 

[IvW]

Yes...it is....

 

[IvW]

Which one in your opinion will penetrate the best?

 

[BourbonTrail]

What will penetrate better, a 12.5gr AAA shotgun pellet travelling at 1181 fps or a .22 40gr bullet @ 1200 fps or a .22 30gr bullet @ 1640 fps? All being of lead construction.

My vote: 330gr African Swallow flying at 36fps...