First Dangerous Game Rifle - Struggling to decide

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

My first recommendation would be .404J controlled feed
Second .416 Rigby controlled feed
Third .375 H&H controlled feed

Rifle must fit properly and cycle 100% of the time. I only recommend the .404J over the .416 R because of slightly lower recoil. Proper stock length and design will manage most recoil problems (within reason)!

 

[Thumper Mcgee]

If you watch near the end. All the bullet wounds are far north of the shoulder. Where I come from we call that no man's land. It's a chunk of meat where I've seen small deer not die from calibers like 300win mags etc.

I dunno if the data is correct. Sorry I don't mean to be the know it all. But I have loads in lever rifles using 4198 powder. Where I have 325 grain bullets flying at 2450-2550fps. Which is essentially the exact same as a 375 HH which I know tons of DG hunters use. Now I understand the bullet construction and how that will play a part. But there are good bullets for the 45-70. I can see maybe guys buying cowboy rounds etc would be light. But many reloaders have these flying down the pipe much faster. Again I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything. But I have yet to read any actual data on why it doesn't work. Just anecdotal evidence of people saying it's not enough. The American bison can grow to the exact same weight as cape Buffalo. I think everyone knows there history on how many bison were killed by the 45-70.

I'm sure it'd work i would be backed up tho by my guide

 

[Tanks]

I'm sure it'd work i would be backed up tho by my guide

I read this over and over here when discussing calibers. Why not get an adequate caliber (not the minimum required), so that you are not putting your life in your guide's hands in a worst case scenario? Be in charge of your own destiny.

If recoil/accuracy is an issue, most hunts are booked a year or more in advance which gives one plenty of time to practice and be proficient with one's firearm.

 

[Nevada Mike]

My first recommendation would be .404J controlled feed
Second .416 Rigby controlled feed
Third .375 H&H controlled feed

Rifle must fit properly and cycle 100% of the time. I only recommend the .404J over the .416 R because of slightly lower recoil. Proper stock length and design will manage most recoil problems (within reason)!

This is where I ended up in my DG rifle decision. I have the additional issue of being a left handed shooter.

I am about to take delivery on a .404J built to my dimensions on a Granite Mountain M98 Mauser action. I will pair it with a 30-'06 for my trip to Tanzania.

 

[Neil Molendyk]

If you watch near the end. All the bullet wounds are far north of the shoulder. Where I come from we call that no man's land. It's a chunk of meat where I've seen small deer not die from calibers like 300win mags etc.

I dunno if the data is correct. Sorry I don't mean to be the know it all. But I have loads in lever rifles using 4198 powder. Where I have 325 grain bullets flying at 2450-2550fps. Which is essentially the exact same as a 375 HH which I know tons of DG hunters use. Now I understand the bullet construction and how that will play a part. But there are good bullets for the 45-70. I can see maybe guys buying cowboy rounds etc would be light. But many reloaders have these flying down the pipe much faster. Again I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything. But I have yet to read any actual data on why it doesn't work. Just anecdotal evidence of people saying it's not enough. The American bison can grow to the exact same weight as cape Buffalo. I think everyone knows there history on how many bison were killed by the 45-70.

Chago; Trust me, I'm by no means an expert on this but I have a wee bit of experience with the 45-70 and 416 Rigby on bison and buffalo respectively and I have seen significant difference in the two animals. Both animals were shot at distances of 70 to 80 yards. The bison was shot with the 45-70 broadside. The bullet impacted just below and missing the heart immediately behind the front leg and was found on the opposite side just under the skin. He dropped to the shot and expired within 2 to 3 minutes. The cape buffalo was shot with the 416 rigby. It was quartering away about 10 degrees left to right. The bullet impacted just behind the front leg hitting both lungs but missing the heart, traversing through the torso and found on the opposite side under the skin. The cape buffalo bull ran approximately 80 yards and was found 30 to 40 minutes later, still alive and struggling unsuccessfully to get to its feet. The bison bull was 10 years old and the cape buffalo was estimated to be 12-13 years old. Things to note: the man pictured with the bison is about 4 inches shorter than the man pictured with the cape buffalo. The bison is much taller and considerably narrower through the chest, maybe 12 inches. Also of note is the bone structure of the two animals. the cape buffalo ribcage is considerably thicker and bone placement is such that the front 3 pairs of ribs overlap each other. The bison ribcage was less robust.

Both bulls weighed at or near 2000 pounds.

These are the two bullets used, both Swift A frame.

The top one is .458 Ballistic coefficient .258, Sectional density .272
Muzzle velocity 2000 fps. Taylor KO of 52.

The bottom one is .416, ballstic coefficient .367, sectional density .330
Muzzle velocity 2350 fps Taylor KO of 56.


Now take into consideration this:
Swift A-Frame .458 400 grain bullets have a BC of .258 and a SD of .272
Swift A-Frame .458 350 grain bullets have a BC of 0.17 and a SD of .238
Swift A-Frame .416 400 grain bullets have a BC of .367 and a SD of .330
Swift A-Frame .375 350 grain bullets have a BC of .325 and a SD of .305

When the Taylor Knock Out formula is used (bullet weight in grains multiplied by caliber in inches multiplied by velocity in fps divide by 7000)
it becomes apparent as to the difference in loads.

My loads
416 Rigby 400 grain bullet at 2350 fps KO of 56
45-70 400 gr bullet at 2000 fps (Ruger No 1 near max) KO of 52.3

Other 45-70 loads with 350 grain bullet
45-70 350 gr bullet at 2300 fps (Ruger No 1 max) KO of 52.7
45-70 350 gr bullet at 2100 fps ( Marlin Lever max) KO of 48

For comparison's sake:

375 H& H 300 grain bullet 2550 fps KO of 41

Now consider the sectional density of the bullet and its contribution to a successful hunt. To quote Kevin Robertson in his book Africas Most Dangerous pg 126, "It is my opinion that any bullet of appropriate caliber that is to be used on buffalo should have a sectional density of at least .300" and "it is a bullet's SD value, together with it's construction that helps to ensure deep, bone-breaking straight-line penetration."

As i noted above the .458 bullets SD is less than .300.
350 grain SD of .238
400 grain SD of .272

In my brief experience it appears to me that the SD is an important indicator of bullet performance.

One other question that begs to be asked. How did the North American native people ever manage to kill a mature bison with primitive spears and arrows?

For what it's worth.

 

[Chago]

Chago; Trust me, I'm by no means an expert on this but I have a wee bit of experience with the 45-70 and 416 Rigby on bison and buffalo respectively and I have seen significant difference in the two animals. Both animals were shot at distances of 70 to 80 yards. The bison was shot with the 45-70 broadside. The bullet impacted just below and missing the heart immediately behind the front leg and was found on the opposite side just under the skin. He dropped to the shot and expired within 2 to 3 minutes. The cape buffalo was shot with the 416 rigby. It was quartering away about 10 degrees left to right. The bullet impacted just behind the front leg hitting both lungs but missing the heart, traversing through the torso and found on the opposite side under the skin. The cape buffalo bull ran approximately 80 yards and was found 30 to 40 minutes later, still alive and struggling unsuccessfully to get to its feet. The bison bull was 10 years old and the cape buffalo was estimated to be 12-13 years old. Things to note: the man pictured with the bison is about 4 inches shorter than the man pictured with the cape buffalo. The bison is much taller and considerably narrower through the chest, maybe 12 inches. Also of note is the bone structure of the two animals. the cape buffalo ribcage is considerably thicker and bone placement is such that the front 3 pairs of ribs overlap each other. The bison ribcage was less robust.

View attachment 386746

View attachment 386745Both bulls weighed at or near 2000 pounds.
View attachment 386741
These are the two bullets used, both Swift A frame.

The top one is .458 Ballistic coefficient .258, Sectional density .272
Muzzle velocity 2000 fps. Taylor KO of 52.

The bottom one is .416, ballstic coefficient .367, sectional density .330
Muzzle velocity 2350 fps Taylor KO of 56.


Now take into consideration this:
Swift A-Frame .458 400 grain bullets have a BC of .258 and a SD of .272
Swift A-Frame .458 350 grain bullets have a BC of 0.17 and a SD of .238
Swift A-Frame .416 400 grain bullets have a BC of .367 and a SD of .330
Swift A-Frame .375 350 grain bullets have a BC of .325 and a SD of .305

When the Taylor Knock Out formula is used (bullet weight in grains multiplied by caliber in inches multiplied by velocity in fps divide by 7000)
it becomes apparent as to the difference in loads.

My loads
416 Rigby 400 grain bullet at 2350 fps KO of 56
45-70 400 gr bullet at 2000 fps (Ruger No 1 near max) KO of 52.3

Other 45-70 loads with 350 grain bullet
45-70 350 gr bullet at 2300 fps (Ruger No 1 max) KO of 52.7
45-70 350 gr bullet at 2100 fps ( Marlin Lever max) KO of 48

For comparison's sake:

375 H& H 300 grain bullet 2550 fps KO of 41

Now consider the sectional density of the bullet and its contribution to a successful hunt. To quote Kevin Robertson in his book Africas Most Dangerous pg 126, "It is my opinion that any bullet of appropriate caliber that is to be used on buffalo should have a sectional density of at least .300" and "it is a bullet's SD value, together with it's construction that helps to ensure deep, bone-breaking straight-line penetration."

As i noted above the .458 bullets SD is less than .300.
350 grain SD of .238
400 grain SD of .272

In my brief experience it appears to me that the SD is an important indicator of bullet performance.

One other question that begs to be asked. How did the North American native people ever manage to kill a mature bison with primitive spears and arrows?

For what it's worth.

This is a great response and I appreciate you for taking the time to add in the hard data. This is what newcomers to these forums look for. And not the anecdotal "evidence" of my buddy's neighbors friend heard from his cousin that some guy on a forum shot a buffalo and it wasn't enough lol.

I have never hunted a cape but I have taken a water buffalo in Argentina with a compound bow. In all honesty I'm a firm believer of a hole in the heart or lungs is a hole in the heart or lungs. Regardless of how much gun powder is behind it. But you are right that extra sauce helps with the bone structure. Well I need to send my marlin rep a email because there website claims the 45-70 is for T-rex. Clearly he's lying.

 

[Neil Molendyk]

"I have never hunted a cape but I have taken a water buffalo in Argentina with a compound bow."

Chago: I'm sure that's a rush, but it's not for me. Go get your cape now. I took a young bull moose years ago with my 45-70 using 500 grain bullets. Two shots that went straight through him and he never even flinched. Then he just dropped down dead. I don't think the bullets even expanded, not enough velocity to open them up. They may as well been solids. But I had to try it.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I probably should not say this but,there might be a few more guides alive today if the client had used a adequate caliber in the first place.

I'm sure it'd work i would be backed up tho by my guide

 

[IvW]

I probably should not say this but,there might be a few more guides alive today if the client had used a adequate caliber in the first place.

Agreed....however even if he/she was using the minimum legal caliber and the correct premium grade bullet was used and most importantly the FIRST shot was placed correctly then there would not have been any issues to start with. A badly placed shot with a .458 will do no better than a similat shot from a .375....
Both placed correctly will get the job done.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Agreed....however even if he/she was using the minimum legal caliber and the correct premium grade bullet was used and most importantly the FIRST shot was placed correctly then there would not have been any issues to start with. A badly placed shot with a .458 will do no better than a similat shot from a .375....
Both placed correctly will get the job done.

We both know that there is no substitute for bullet placement (with a premium bullet), but I will stand by my belief that the .458 or similar caliber will do more damage and potentially stop a bad situation faster than the .375. Minimum caliber is just that "minimum".

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

If i were you I would get my hands on as many different rifles as you can (preferably CRF) and see which one fits you best and then think about calibre.

 

[IvW]

Y

We both know that there is no substitute for bullet placement (with a premium bullet), but I will stand by my belief that the .458 or similar caliber will do more damage and potentially stop a bad situation faster than the .375. Minimum caliber is just that "minimum".

Yip but I would prefer a client who can handle and shoot a 375 rather than one that cannot a 458....most are better of with the minimum...they may not want to accept that but so it is....

 

[BourbonTrail]

Yip but I would prefer a client who can handle and shoot a 375 rather than one that cannot a 458....most are better of with the minimum...they may not want to accept that but so it is....

I completely agree with only hunting with something that you are good at shooting from any position in any situation. I would never even go hunting with something that I haven’t fully mastered. If I can’t master the big bores I won’t set foot on the hunting field with them. If I can’t master a 375/9.3 I am not going after DG. Simple.

There’s no point doing something if you aren’t going to do it right.

 

[IvW]

I completely agree with only hunting with something that you are good at shooting from any position in any situation. I would never even go hunting with something that I haven’t fully mastered. If I can’t master the big bores I won’t set foot on the hunting field with them. If I can’t master a 375/9.3 I am not going after DG. Simple.

There’s no point doing something if you aren’t going to do it right.

If only all clients did that would make the PH and trackers job a lot easier....

 

[Bonk]

Disclimer: I've never hunted DG so take my opinion with a giant grain of salt.

All else being equal bigger is better when it comes to stopping power but we're comparing apples to oranges because all else is not equal. Modern ammunition and modern rifles have had a significant impact (pun intended) on any particular caliber's effectiveness on game compared to the calibers/rifles of 100 years ago.

The big bore calibers that dominated Africa and India in the early 1900's are not the same as the big bores that dominate now and the 375H&H is a different animal than it was in 1925. Better powders, stronger rifles, more accurate rifles, more reliable rifles, better sights/optics and, most importantly, drastic advancement in bullet construction all contribute to make a modern version of any historic caliber a significantly more potent choice.

My point is I suspect a modern 375 (take your pick) using modern ammo is probably as effective on DG as a 100 year old 404J or 416 Rigby was using 100 year old ammo. If that's true than choosing a modern 375 for DG is a much more valid choice even if it's considered the legal minimum. The 404J and 416 Rigby worked just fine back in the day so why wouldn't a modern 375 be equally as effective?

I have to mention the obvious. Ammo for the .40+ rifles has also dramatically improved so the gap between them and the 375H&H is still the same. All I'm saying is one could choose a smaller caliber today than they would have 100 years ago and get similar results. Bigger is still better but you don't have to go a big as you used to. However, I still want a 400H&H to go with my 375s. YMMV

 

[Viral_SIGness]

Since you are a client hunter ( and a novice , I believe ) , I strongly believe that the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum shall be the most practical choice for you . It is also advantageous in terms of versatility , recoil management and the wide choice of factory loaded ammunition ( or bullets , if you reload ) . Ammunition ( and reloading components ) for the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum is also comparatively more affordable than other large calibres .

In the context of a client hunter ( whose primary objective is to ensure that the first bullet is placed in a vital region ) , a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum is perfectly adequate for any and all dangerous game ; from leopard to elephant ( assuming of course , that you select the appropriate choice of ammunition ) . Your professional hunter will get you in the proper position to ensure that you can take your first shot at a critical area of the dangerous game animal in question .

That said ; I personally use and prefer larger calibres for hunting dangerous game , because I am a Problem Animal Control officer and ( unlike client hunters ) we need to hunt dangerous game alone without having a professional hunter to back us up . My personal favorite happens to be the .458 Winchester Magnum , because I have been enjoying a significant amount of success with it over the last 44 years . Client hunters are not usually required to stop charging dangerous game , but professional hunters and Problem Animal Control officers are . The larger calibres are definitely more advantageous when body shots at charging dangerous game are required . Not only do they punch larger wound cavities into the vital organs of big game ( which accelerates blood loss , thereby causing the animal to hemorrhage quicker ) , but they also deliver a greater amount of shock to the central nervous system of an animal ( provided of course , that the velocity is adequate ) . In this context , one of the .450 bores ( employing a 500 grain bullet which is being propelled at a velocity of at least 2100 feet per second ) is quite difficult to surpass in my experience .

Has the .458 Win Mag overcame all its failures with newer and better powders?

 

[Viral_SIGness]

My first recommendation would be .404J controlled feed
Second .416 Rigby controlled feed
Third .375 H&H controlled feed

Rifle must fit properly and cycle 100% of the time. I only recommend the .404J over the .416 R because of slightly lower recoil. Proper stock length and design will manage most recoil problems (within reason)!

I prefer CRF too, even though its maybe 10% about the feeding, and 90% about the large, dependable extractor.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

Y

Yip but I would prefer a client who can handle and shoot a 375 rather than one that cannot a 458....most are better of with the minimum...they may not want to accept that but so it is....

My hunt probably isn't happening until 2021, but I got my first .375 last year, and started practicing from field positions (with the iron sights). Shoot 4" clays from 30-50 yards.

Until I started reading here, I had no idea the .375 is only good enough if you have a .505 Gibbs with you. Crazy what you learn.

 

[IvW]

Disclimer: I've never hunted DG so take my opinion with a giant grain of salt.

All else being equal bigger is better when it comes to stopping power but we're comparing apples to oranges because all else is not equal. Modern ammunition and modern rifles have had a significant impact (pun intended) on any particular caliber's effectiveness on game compared to the calibers/rifles of 100 years ago.

The big bore calibers that dominated Africa and India in the early 1900's are not the same as the big bores that dominate now and the 375H&H is a different animal than it was in 1925. Better powders, stronger rifles, more accurate rifles, more reliable rifles, better sights/optics and, most importantly, drastic advancement in bullet construction all contribute to make a modern version of any historic caliber a significantly more potent choice.

My point is I suspect a modern 375 (take your pick) using modern ammo is probably as effective on DG as a 100 year old 404J or 416 Rigby was using 100 year old ammo. If that's true than choosing a modern 375 for DG is a much more valid choice even if it's considered the legal minimum. The 404J and 416 Rigby worked just fine back in the day so why wouldn't a modern 375 be equally as effective?

I have to mention the obvious. Ammo for the .40+ rifles has also dramatically improved so the gap between them and the 375H&H is still the same. All I'm saying is one could choose a smaller caliber today than they would have 100 years ago and get similar results. Bigger is still better but you don't have to go a big as you used to. However, I still want a 400H&H to go with my 375s. YMMV

Correct however it is not the clients job to stop a charge he needs a rifle and cartridge to place the first shot in the right place.....

 

[IvW]

Has the .458 Win Mag overcame all its failures with newer and better powders?

No.....