Double Rifles vs Bolt Actions - Speed tests

[CTDolan]

I'm not a fan of Mark Sullivan but if he'd been carrying a bolt gun in this situation he'd likely have gotten stomped.

He goaded the bull, of course, but in heavy cover the same situation could obviously play out for an ethical PH. Clients really have no need for a double but there is a case for the PH and that slightly quicker second shot.

 

[CTDolan]

Regarding timing of shots, bolt vs. double, I've got some information at home and will share it tonight.

 

[DWB]

Thank you @Jfet ,

I will PM you a link to my YouTube channel where some videos can be found.
I have however come to the conclusion that I am personally not the best example for recoil management as I absorb most of it as opposed to riding it, due to a rather firm grip a lot of it is also absorbed into my right wrist and fore-arm. Something that I will need to work on.

But as you say, practice practice practice!

 

[DWB]

Thank you! It will be nice to see.

As for Mr Sullivan, he probably didn't know by then its the dead ones that kill you!

 

[IvW]

I'm not a fan of Mark Sullivan but if he'd been carrying a bolt gun in this situation he'd likely have gotten stomped.

He goaded the bull, of course, but in heavy cover the same situation could obviously play out for an ethical PH. Clients really have no need for a double but there is a case for the PH and that slightly quicker second shot.

First off, that is not Mark Sullivan but rather his son.
Secondly, had he not been dicking around and shot the buffalo when he noticed that it was not dead(from behind through the spine and shoulders) the buffalo would have never gotten up.
Thirdly, had he been a better shot he would have dropped the buffalo with the first shot at that range.

Idiots calling themselves Professional unfortunately abound, especially when the cameras are rolling and they want to get the footage, very similar to "small man syndrome"....idiotic to say the least...

Very poor and unethical way of dealing with any wounded animal never mind DG...

Pity the second shot went where it was supposed to, in my opinion, he needs to get respect for what he hunts and that would have given it to him.....

 

[Scrumbag]

BASA is the Big Bore Association of South Africa

It is possible that you might have shot against them in the International Big Bore Shoot (DGS)

Yes I think some of our guys went to that last year.

 

[CTDolan]

First off, that is not Mark Sullivan but rather his son.
Secondly, had he not been dicking around and shot the buffalo when he noticed that it was not dead(from behind through the spine and shoulders) the buffalo would have never gotten up.
Thirdly, had he been a better shot he would have dropped the buffalo with the first shot at that range.

Idiots calling themselves Professional unfortunately abound, especially when the cameras are rolling and they want to get the footage, very similar to "small man syndrome"....idiotic to say the least...

Very poor and unethical way of dealing with any wounded animal never mind DG...

Pity the second shot went where it was supposed to, in my opinion, he needs to get respect for what he hunts and that would have given it to him.....

You're wrong, it is Mark Sullivan. The video dates back to the late 80's or early 90's.

You're right in that it is a horribly unethical method intended purely to get some macho kick and sell a few videos. Evidently he's been at it his entire career, which is why he seems to have suffered a falling out with the community at large.

Mind you, I've never shared a camp with the guy, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

That was darn fast sir!

+1

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

You're wrong, it is Mark Sullivan. The video dates back to the late 80's or early 90's.

You're right in that it is a horribly unethical method intended purely to get some macho kick and sell a few videos. Evidently he's been at it his entire career, which is why he seems to have suffered a falling out with the community at large.

Mind you, I've never shared a camp with the guy, so take my opinion for what it's worth.

I think the same as you CTDolan.
Witold

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Mark Sullivan loves his Doubles !
That video is from 1989 . I saw it somewhere before.
He's one of the few gentlemen l ever met who can use a .600 Nitro Express so well. When l met him , l was a teen age kid . That's why l was wondering why He looks in this video , the same he looked when l met him in the '80s. Because the video is FROM the '80s ! Mark Told me that he prefers double triggers over the single selective trigger. I don't know if his preference changed over the years. I do know that at the time I met him , his favorite double was a .577 Nitro Express.
I personally prefer the 3-7 round capacity of a good Bolt action . I find that l can manipulate the bolt quick enough. Of course , many professional hunters opt for doubles due to the instant ability to pull off a second shot. From what l have read , the very first 3 professional hunters to use Bolt actions for their backup work were : Harry Selby who used his .416 Rigby , Harry Manners who used four .375 HH Magnum Winchester Model 70 rifles ( and occasionally a .404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby when he could get the ammo ) and Wally Johnson , who used one Winchester Model 70 in .375 HH Magnum his entire life.

 

[bruce moulds]

speed is governed by several things, and speed alone is useless.
you also have to aim and squeeze, as well as recover from recoil.
this also takes time.
the big advantage of a double for dangerous game is that with 2 triggers, you have 2 guns, so if 1 fails the next one is instantly available.
one disadvantage of a double is that they tent to be stocked with a lot of drop at heel, which makes them rise a lot in recoil.
this makes getting back on target a little slower than it could be.
nothing points like a good bolt gun, and that includes doubles.
it is to do with balance and weight.
both guns have a place.
another benefit of a double is that you can get extractor only option.
this allows a very quiet reload.
bruce.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

There was an extensive US government study on minimal time required to gire multiple well aimed shots from a bolt action rifle in the 1960's. While these tests were focused on a bolt action 6.5X52mm Mannlicher Carcano, you can probably linearly ratio the bolt travel times to other cartridges. There was associated amateur video taken by someone named Zapruder. However there remain unresolved questions centered on a grassy knoll.

 

[Red Leg]

speed is governed by several things, and speed alone is useless.
you also have to aim and squeeze, as well as recover from recoil.
this also takes time.
the big advantage of a double for dangerous game is that with 2 triggers, you have 2 guns, so if 1 fails the next one is instantly available.
one disadvantage of a double is that they tent to be stocked with a lot of drop at heel, which makes them rise a lot in recoil.
this makes getting back on target a little slower than it could be.
nothing points like a good bolt gun, and that includes doubles.
it is to do with balance and weight.
both guns have a place.
another benefit of a double is that you can get extractor only option.
this allows a very quiet reload.
bruce.

We must use different doubles. None that I have ever owned have too much drop at heel. (I have owned a couple of American built SxS’s from the turn of the century that were practically unshootable due to drop at heel - but never a double rifle). Like a properly stocked SxS shotgun, a properly stocked double brings the rifle into immediate alignment with the eyes. A problem with many bolt actions is that they are either stocked for a telescopic sight, and the open sights can no longer be used quickly (or at all in some cases), or they are stocked as a compromise where nothing aligns naturally. A good rifle that is properly stocked and fitted points well, regardless of action, and helps the shooter manage recoil.

 

[Red Leg]

I'm not a fan of Mark Sullivan but if he'd been carrying a bolt gun in this situation he'd likely have gotten stomped.

He goaded the bull, of course, but in heavy cover the same situation could obviously play out for an ethical PH. Clients really have no need for a double but there is a case for the PH and that slightly quicker second shot.

Good point.

This is the very video clip that caused me to cross this character off my list when I saw it back in the day. The client is “hunting” from the land cruiser, and Sullivan could and should have ended this with a quick shot from behind. Instead he saw an opportunity to use a suffering bull for a prop.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

We must use different doubles. None that I have ever owned have too much drop at heel. (I have owned a couple of American built SxS’s from the turn of the century that were practically unshootable due to drop at heel - but never a double rifle). Like a properly stocked SxS shotgun, a properly stocked double brings the rifle into immediate alignment with the eyes. A problem with many bolt actions is that they are either stocked for a telescopic sight, and the open sights can no longer be used quickly (or at all in some cases), or they are stocked as a compromise where nothing aligns naturally. A good rifle that is properly stocked and fitted points well, regardless of action, and helps the shooter manage recoil.

There IS One American Maker of Double rifles whom l have personally had the pleasure of meeting ; Mr Butch Searcy. When l met him , he was building this 4 Gauge Double rifle . Beautiful pieces of Art. The gun was heavy but comfortable to hold. Of course , such a caliber with those HUGE unjacketed lead bullets aren't really my thing. But his .470s and .500s are perfect tools for the Job !

 

[Fastrig]

Good point.

This is the very video clip that caused me to cross this character off my list when I saw it back in the day. The client is “hunting” from the land cruiser, and Sullivan could and should have ended this with a quick shot from behind. Instead he saw an opportunity to use a suffering bull for a prop.

Watched that video as I was scrolling through this thread and that was my first reaction as well....not much of a “PH” if that is how he handles game....wouldn’t want to be hunting a big cat with him with that kind of mentality. And the client shooting from the back of a land cruiser, WTH?! A double wasn’t necessary here if the PH had done his job properly and/or the client could place a shot worth a crap (four shots by the client and two by the PH?). Off my soap box...

 

[Red Leg]

There IS One American Maker of Double rifles whom l have personally had the pleasure of meeting ; Mr Butch Searcy. When l met him , he was building this 4 Gauge Double rifle . Beautiful pieces of Art. The gun was heavy but comfortable to hold. Of course , such a caliber with those HUGE unjacketed lead bullets aren't really my thing. But his .470s and .500s are perfect tools for the Job !View attachment 302318 View attachment 302319

I was referring to turn of the century (19th to 20th) American made SxS shotguns. Many early Parkers, for instance, have too much drop to shoot well. British guns of the same period are perfectly stocked, but many Continental guns made for the American market also have exaggerated drop.

With respect to Searcy, Some Of his rifles seem to be very well made, others less so.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I was referring to turn of the century (19th to 20th) American made SxS shotguns. Many early Parkers, for instance, have too much drop to shoot well. British guns of the same period are perfectly stocked, but many Continental guns made for the American market also have exaggerated drop.

With respect to Searcy, Some Of his rifles seem to be very well made, others less so.

Fair enough . I have only rudimentary knowledge on doubles But l do know that he is capable of making some of his double rifles regulate with 2 loads . As l understand , this is a rarity among double rifles ?

 

[CTDolan]

Sorry but I could not find the information regarding time trials with bolt action rifles versus doubles. It went pretty much as expected, though. Double rifles were quickest on the second shot then bolt action rifles came into their own for the third and fourth (although, on at least on occasion a fella with a double was damn near as quick with the fourth as some were with their bolt guns). Personally, if I was looking for a rifle which has all of the qualities one seeks, in this regard, I wouldn’t look any further than a R8. The straight pull action is scary quick to work (further, it is the strongest action of which I know (it places the stressed component in compression rather than shear, as is the case with a “normal” bolt action rifle), and one can change calibers on a whim…what more could you want?).

As with a things, practice makes perfect. Choose what you can afford (and like) and make it work.

 

[DWB]

Thank you for trying!