Double Rifles vs Bolt Actions - Speed tests

[Fastrig]

Thanks for the education on doubles!!! Complete newb as far as doubles go and sounds like they have more capabilities than I was aware of.

 

[Fastrig]

One my doubles is a Blaser S2. It is a different sort of double rifle. It has three sets of barrels - .375 / 30-06 / and 500-416. This rifle has been to Africa and taken everything from buffalo to Oribi, at ranges from 40 - yards to nearly 250. 300 would not be a problem with the ‘06 or .375.

All six barrels shoot MOA. Combined four shot groups LxR/LxR at 100 meters are sub- 3 inches. The rifle is scoped. The 500-416 does that at 70 meters with an aim point. I sight the rifle in on the right barrel. That gives me an instant second shot inside a couple of MOA to quite a ways out there. And a first shot as accurate as any single in the same caliber. Should a follow-up be required, the scope is instantly dismountable and the rifle has wonderful open sights.

As I say it is not a traditional double which seems to aggravate some traditionalists. But it is a damned effective hunting firearm.

Does anyone make a quality working man’s double rifle? Everything I see online is over ten grand and that’s on the low side. And I thought the R8’s were pricey, LOL

 

[rookhawk]

Does anyone make a quality working man’s double rifle? Everything I see online is over ten grand and that’s on the low side. And I thought the R8’s were pricey, LOL

I think to get a good double rifle, you need something in the MSRP of $16000-$25000. If you can’t afford that (most can’t) then you need a used version of the same in the $7500-11,500 range.

 

[Fastrig]

I think to get a good double rifle, you need something in the MSRP of $16000-$25000. If you can’t afford that (most can’t) then you need a used version of the same in the $7500-11,500 range.

Thanks, kind of what I figured based on what I was seeing...

 

[bruce moulds]

We must use different doubles. None that I have ever owned have too much drop at heel. (I have owned a couple of American built SxS’s from the turn of the century that were practically unshootable due to drop at heel - but never a double rifle). Like a properly stocked SxS shotgun, a properly stocked double brings the rifle into immediate alignment with the eyes. A problem with many bolt actions is that they are either stocked for a telescopic sight, and the open sights can no longer be used quickly (or at all in some cases), or they are stocked as a compromise where nothing aligns naturally. A good rifle that is properly stocked and fitted points well, regardless of action, and helps the shooter manage recoil.

my double was a john rigby, and climbed the muzzle a lot on recoil.
the only boltgun I have owned that was anything like it was a sako finnbear.
you had to physically hold them down, and this barely helped.
the physics of drop at heel.
more modern boltguns, some factory and some stocked by myself, hardly have this trend at all.
maybe the climbers were more suited to iron sights, and the rigby would never have been tainted by a scope.
modern boltguns are stocked more for scope use as you say, but this is not a problem with good quality scopes of the correct power.
the same holds for scopes on doubles, in that you cannot really stock a rifle for both properly.
a good low powered scope, properly mounted is possibly faster than irons anyway.
older boltguns also had too much drop at heel to come straight back.

 

[BeeMaa]

When seconds count...

 

[Hoss Delgado]

When seconds count...

A good Bolt action in .505 Gibbs Magnum can flatten a charging buffalo with an end on end shot , l believe . Even though other ( more experienced ) sportsmen would opt for an expanding bullet on Cape Buffalo , this is probably a situation where l would want a 600 Grain Monolithic meplat brass Solid .
I think the head shot on a Buffalo ( be it a cape buffalo or a water buffalo ) is a pretty risky affair. I had the chance to examine the skull of an Australian Water Buffalo ( one of 4 which l have hunted so far ) back in 2016 . It's brain is below the boss of the horns . Hard to describe in words , but anyone who actually hunted Cape Buffalo will know what l am talking about . The only time , l would advocate a feasible head shot on a Buffalo would be when it is charging and within 11 feet distance , and has its head low to hit us with it's horns.
But the risk is too high for my liking. I have taken all of mine with the modest unambiguous , double lung shot .
Weapon used : Winchester Model 70 in .375 HH Magnum
Ammunition used : Hornady DG Solids ( 300 grain Meplat Full Metal Jacket ) , Kynoch Round nosed full patch 300 grain solids and 300 Grain Swift A frames .
Barring the one shot with the Hornady , all were killed cleanly .
I will go after my 2020 Botswana Cape Buffalo with my .375 HH Magnum BRNO ZKK - 602 loaded with 300 grain Swift A frames. Although , l will keep some Cutting Edge Monolithic meplat brass Solids in 300 grain weight on hand " just in case "

 

[IvW]

The clients second shot kills the buff...not the PH double...

 

[BeeMaa]

Not the best video, but still a good example.

 

[IvW]

The bolt guy is slow and recoil shy....

 

[rookhawk]

The bolt guy is slow and recoil shy....

And the double rifle guy is slow and fumbled his reloading by my estimation.

 

[TTundra]

There are a lot of variables to consider in filming a test like that. The 416 rigby is a tad longer action and I certainly feel it compared to a standard long action. Being that he stated there were already jams makes me believe the bolt shooter isnt as well practiced with speed shooting. In all reality he was changing his muscle memory for the competition and the filming which he probably should have practiced for this filming for a few days prior if not longer.

I'd personally would love to see a 500NE double vs a 500 Jeff traditional bolt gun and then a 500 Jeff R8 all side by side....

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Never hunted in Africa yet , but l find that l can get off all 7 shots ( whole Magazine ) from my .375 HH Magnum BRNO ZKK - 602 in 5 seconds. Is that acceptable for DG ?

 

[IvW]

Never hunted in Africa yet , but l find that l can get off all 7 shots ( whole Magazine ) from my .375 HH Magnum BRNO ZKK - 602 in 5 seconds. Is that acceptable for DG ?

Only if you are hitting what you are aiming at.....

 

[Fastrig]

The bolt guy is slow and recoil shy....

He definitely needs to practice cycling that rifle....been practicing with my Mauser M12 9.3x62 and already faster than that guy after just a few trips to the range. Sure it also boils down to the rifle and how smooth its action is, mine’s smooth as butter when cycling a round so sure that helps a lot. Not sure why this cycling stuff is even a debate though, that double is going to be faster on the first two shots no matter what, third and fourth should be on par though with someone who is practiced with a quality rifle, or at least really close. If you haven’t dropped an animal by shot two, you might want to concentrate more on shot placement rather than cycling speed, former is more important than the later, though I’m not discounting cycling practice and proficiency.

 

[Red Leg]

my double was a john rigby, and climbed the muzzle a lot on recoil.
the only boltgun I have owned that was anything like it was a sako finnbear.
you had to physically hold them down, and this barely helped.
the physics of drop at heel.
more modern boltguns, some factory and some stocked by myself, hardly have this trend at all.
maybe the climbers were more suited to iron sights, and the rigby would never have been tainted by a scope.
modern boltguns are stocked more for scope use as you say, but this is not a problem with good quality scopes of the correct power.
the same holds for scopes on doubles, in that you cannot really stock a rifle for both properly.
a good low powered scope, properly mounted is possibly faster than irons anyway.
older boltguns also had too much drop at heel to come straight back.

If you stock rifles - bolt action or double - you already understand that one stocked to automatically align open sights will have different dimensions than one one built for a scope and, in turn, will be different than one built as a compromise. I, personally, have never experienced the excessive muzzle rise you describe on a properly stocked double rifle. And obviously, a period Rigby would be properly stocked. Our personal dimensions add another set of variables, and I assume the Rigby you owned, if an older double, was likely a bespoke rifle - bespoke for someone else. That too could contribute to your perception of muzzle rise.

Bolt actions stocked for irons, pre-war model 70’s for instance, will force a higher cheekweld when using a scope. Perceived recoil is always more with such an arrangement. But when shooting irons those rifles seem to perform perfectly.

But all of this is personal perception, and we perceive what we perceive. Your recoil experience with an older SxS was what it was. Mine is entirely different. Neither of us is wrong.

 

[rookhawk]

Adding to another area of this debate that I’m sure @Red Leg would concur:

Neither shooter was highly proficient with their weapons, and neither were proficient wing shooters.

How can I tell? They were not pointing the gun instinctively as they brought them to the shoulder. For if they had, many times the second the rifle touched their cheek they would have discharged it as the front sight (or bead) would be on target by the time the weapon is shouldered and the rear sight is merely settling in for a quarter second or so.

No one can really afford to finance the expense of getting really good at large bore rifle shooting, so how are you going to do it? Instinctive method shooting of SxS shotguns.

It’s pretty easy to go through 100,000 rounds in a SxS, and if you shoot low-gun you have something useful to bring to rifle shooting dangerous game.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Only if you are hitting what you are aiming at.....

Not as good as when l have a second or two of recovery time . 4 inch groups at worst though. For a Huge , charging animal , that wouldn't be so bad , I'm guessing ?

 

[rookhawk]

Not as good as when l have a second or two of recovery time . 4 inch groups at worst though. For a Huge , charging animal , that wouldn't be so bad , I'm guessing ?

4” groups at 25 yards are effectively one hole groups at 4 yards. Your first shot and your last shot are the only ones that matter!

 

[IvW]

Not as good as when l have a second or two of recovery time . 4 inch groups at worst though. For a Huge , charging animal , that wouldn't be so bad , I'm guessing ?

Which you will not need as a first time DG hunter coming to Africa. Yes practicing to reload and shoot a second even third shot is important and good, however the most important is making sure the FIRST shot goes where it is supposed to. The first shot will 100% be from shooting sticks for a first time client coming to Africa for DG.

Practice taking the first shot ACCURATELY from a three legged shooting stick, reloading from there and then placing a second shot again from the sticks and you will be good to go, forget about this freehand standing high speed shooting from the offhand position, chances are you will never do that in the field and 100% guaranteed if the first shot goes where it is supposed to, will not be needed.

For a "huge charging animal", the chances of that happening if the first shot is placed correctly are well, just about zero, yes many believe they will have to face this and be prepared to deal with it the reality is it rarely happens and almost 100% of the time only happens if the client screwed up the first shot to start with....

Practice placing the first shot where it needs to go and forget about high speed charge stopping follow up shot and you will be just fine....