Double rifle or bolt action?

[Bonk]

A quality double rifle appeals to me because I love well made guns. If my financial circumstances were different I'd have a Heym simply for the joy of owning and shooting one. A couple of years ago I was fortunate to stumble onto a very affordable Zoli 9.3x74R O/U double rifle. No, it's not a Heym and it's not a traditional SxS double but it's an excellent rifle and I dearly love shooting it.

Several posters have mentioned the nostalgia of hunting Africa and I admit to have been bitten by that bug as a young man (much younger). When I go to Africa I want to get as close as reasonably possible to that experience and one aspect of that nostalgia is the rifle. I would argue that both double rifles and Mauser type bolt action rifles are part and parcel of African hunting lore and neither one exclusively owns the tradition high ground. In that regard my nod to tradition is based more on caliber than the kind of rifle. That's why when I go to Africa I'll be taking a wood and blue steel CRF bolt action rifle chambered in 9.3x62, 375H&H or 404J. Any scratches, nicks and dents it gets will count as trophies.

 

[Rubberhead]

I love this thread. If there's a sub-theme in AH, it's double guns and their use on African DG.

Remember the 4M's of shooting...Mechanics, Muscle Memory, and Mentality...are all different between a bolt gun and a double, or even an autoloader for that matter.

Whichever you decide, work the 4Ms before you leave otherwise, you'll introduce the 3Ms...Miserable and Making Mistakes...

 

[Daniel Cary]

If you want to watch a good video. This is a little slow at times, but probably best elephant hunt I’ve seen on video. I can only hope my hunt next year is half this hunt. Both PH and hunter using doubles.

Thank you!!!

 

[Tanks]

Big money or not for a quality double, why would I want to handicap myself in trying to cleanly kill an animal? I've shot double rifles but wouldn't think of hunting with one. To me, they seem clubby compared to a well fitting scoped bolt gun and no way do they feel like I could put a bullet or two or three or four where I wanted with precision, under stress, especially with open sights. IMO, their appeal to many seems mostly for appearance and tradition and photos and videos- I guess some form of anachronism for time travel back to the "golden age of safari". Also interesting to me... I've hunted with some very eperienced and well known PHs and outfitters- none have carried a double for backup. But many have very high end doubles that they will pull out for discussion and show and tell around the evening fire. Oh, and none have needed to or even asked to have marketing photos or videos taken during the hunt and I certainly haven't

Hmmm, I don’t feel I have ever handicapped myself with a double. I also do not think they are clubby. As a matter of fact, a double is easier to handle than a bolt rifle of the same barrel length due to shorter overall length.

As far as the PH preference goes I guess it depends on who you hunt with. All of mine in recent years carried doubles.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The specific charge wasn’t missing with a double due to not having a scope. It was wasting the second shot before being anywhere near on target with doubles AND AUTOMATICS in many African YouTube videos. The vast majority are good shooting, how they are edited are definitely debatable. I find it difficult not to argue with the man over his posts. Calling him arrogant may be out of line for forum, but many of his posts have a certain tone with added imagined commentary. A certain level of accuracy is expected to add value to this forum. His posts about wild Africa which he has not hunted and has no intention of doing so particularly bother me. His posts of leaving United States for Canada because he feels unsafe with so many guns in Idaho do as well, but that’s an opinion I suppose he’s entitled to. The comments about writers and Roosevelt had no purpose being added to this discussion. I’m sure Roosevelt would have benefited greatly from the quality scopes and red dots we have today, but I see no value in criticizing him 110 years later.

I think we are to the meat of the matter (pun intended). I'm not a flaming ultra conservative gun nut and that bugs you. For your information I did not move to Canada to escape US gun mania. I was fired from the Park Service for working on my own time. I kid you not. There's actually a regulation. Came home from working a temp clerical job one day to find my new Canadian wife in tears. "I don't want to live in a country that treats you that way. You gave up a part of your life and your body serving and they do that." Told her as soon as she could find a job, I'd pack my bags. She flew here for an interview in '89 and called me that night. The university offered her a position: "I saw the darnedest thing driving outside of town. A yellow warning sign with moose in it." I told her to take the job! So now you know the rest of the story.

I don't mind swimming against the current. Always finding my own way. And I'm not afraid to speak frankly. That is supposed to be a virtue. Never been into spending money to impress people or fit a romantic image. Not my thing. It can become an addiction ... to arrogance. I find it amusing that someone would call me arrogant. My vehicle is a '99 Jimmy with 300K miles and a different color hood (thanks to Montana muley buck). I shoot a rifle that may have killed Japanese soldiers in the South Pacific. My hunting dog was born on a bus driver's garage floor. I live in an 800 sq ft home built in 1929. My safari hat is a ball cap. But I am wealthy enough to hunt Africa every year ... without touching anything but interest on investments. Yet, I am arrogant? I think the problem for you is I am not "arrogant." And somewhat proud of it. Perhaps too much. I'll try to tone it down.

One can live life in the fast lane without driving a sports car. Just push the pedal to the floor.

 

[Daniel Cary]

500 Jeffery for everybody .. with a Leupold dot sight.
PH with a 577 ;

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Hmmm, I don’t feel I have ever handicapped myself with a double. I also do not think they are clubby. As a matter of fact, a double is easier to handle than a bolt rifle of the same barrel length due to shorter overall length.

As far as the PH preference goes I guess it depends on who you hunt with. All of mine in recent years carried doubles.

The PH's I have hunted with did not have doubles, but wish they had.

 

[Rare Breed]

Roosevelt is a hero in the world of conservation, but the fact remains that he was a terrible shot. This is pretty well documented and he admitted to as much.

As much as I love Hemingway, Raurk, and others, they were seriously flawed individuals. I don’t think the criticism of them is out of line.

There are plenty of videos out there of crappy shooting by clients with doubles. Many more videos with crappy shooting edited out. One that comes to mind the the video of Cal Papas, who was a double rifle expert and as I understand it an all around class act and wonderful human being, missing a buffalo with both barrels. It would have been a chip shot with a scoped bolt gun. For Cal and many others the rifle was a much a part of the experience as the hunt itself. There is nothing wrong with that. I’m leaving for Zim later this week with one gun, a double with irons. I understand his passion.

I also don’t have to agree with everything our Canadian buddy said to be offended by the way he was treated here. Calling him arrogant was uncalled for and out of line. You don’t have to be a veteran of many DG safaris across multiple countries to have a voice on this forum. Telling someone that their opinion isn’t valid because they have only hunted one buffalo in RSA is decidedly not cool in my book.

I like this forum because it is generally more civil than the rest of the internet. We should be able to voice opinions here and not be met with personal attacks.

Roosevelt is a hero in the world of conservation, but the fact remains that he was a terrible shot. This is pretty well documented and he admitted to as much.

As much as I love Hemingway, Raurk, and others, they were seriously flawed individuals. I don’t think the criticism of them is out of line.

There are plenty of videos out there of crappy shooting by clients with doubles. Many more videos with crappy shooting edited out. One that comes to mind the the video of Cal Papas, who was a double rifle expert and as I understand it an all around class act and wonderful human being, missing a buffalo with both barrels. It would have been a chip shot with a scoped bolt gun. For Cal and many others the rifle was a much a part of the experience as the hunt itself. There is nothing wrong with that. I’m leaving for Zim later this week with one gun, a double with irons. I understand his passion.

I also don’t have to agree with everything our Canadian buddy said to be offended by the way he was treated here. Calling him arrogant was uncalled for and out of line. You don’t have to be a veteran of many DG safaris across multiple countries to have a voice on this forum. Telling someone that their opinion isn’t valid because they have only hunted one buffalo in RSA is decidedly not cool in my book.

I like this forum because it is generally more civil than the rest of the internet. We should be able to voice opinions here and not be met with personal attacks.

You have made some fair points. My only complaint with someone is voicing what sounds like facts versus just an opinion when they don’t know what they are talking about…Stewart Granger comes to mind. That’s all. Otherwise I always respect all input on here even if I personally based on my actual experience not opinion disagree

 

[Rare Breed]

A quality double rifle appeals to me because I love well made guns. If my financial circumstances were different I'd have a Heym simply for the joy of owning and shooting one. A couple of years ago I was fortunate to stumble onto a very affordable Zoli 9.3x74R O/U double rifle. No, it's not a Heym and it's not a traditional SxS double but it's an excellent rifle and I dearly love shooting it.

Several posters have mentioned the nostalgia of hunting Africa and I admit to have been bitten by that bug as a young man (much younger). When I go to Africa I want to get as close as reasonably possible to that experience and one aspect of that nostalgia is the rifle. I would argue that both double rifles and Mauser type bolt action rifles are part and parcel of African hunting lore and neither one exclusively owns the tradition high ground. In that regard my nod to tradition is based more on caliber than the kind of rifle. That's why when I go to Africa I'll be taking a wood and blue steel CRF bolt action rifle chambered in 9.3x62, 375H&H or 404J. Any scratches, nicks and dents it gets will count as trophies.

Nicely said Bonk!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I think we are to the meat of the matter (pun intended). I'm not a flaming ultra conservative gun nut and that bugs you. For your information I did not move to Canada to escape US gun mania. I was fired from the Park Service for working on my own time. I kid you not. There's actually a regulation. Came home from working a temp clerical job one day to find my new Canadian wife in tears. "I don't want to live in a country that treats you that way. You gave up a part of your life and your body serving and they do that." Told her as soon as she could find a job, I'd pack my bags. She flew here for an interview in '89 and called me that night. The university offered her a position: "I saw the darnedest thing driving outside of town. A yellow warning sign with moose in it." I told her to take the job! So now you know the rest of the story.

I don't mind swimming against the current. Always finding my own way. And I'm not afraid to speak frankly. That is supposed to be a virtue. Never been into spending money to impress people or fit a romantic image. Not my thing. It can become an addiction ... to arrogance. I find it amusing that someone would call me arrogant. My vehicle is a '99 Jimmy with 300K miles and a different color hood (thanks to Montana muley buck). I shoot a rifle that may have killed Japanese soldiers in the South Pacific. My hunting dog was born on a bus driver's garage floor. I live in an 800 sq ft home built in 1929. My safari hat is a ball cap. But I am wealthy enough to hunt Africa every year ... without touching anything but interest on investments. Yet, I am arrogant? I think the problem for you is I am not "arrogant." And somewhat proud of it. Perhaps too much. I'll try to tone it down.

One can live life in the fast lane without driving a sports car. Just push the pedal to the floor.

I have made it a rule on here, or in life generally to never enter into personal frays, but I think it may be useful here. I don't know you OH, but I rather like you for your straightness, if that's a word. But it has to be said that you make a meal out of being fractious, unnecessarily so I feel because it undoes the validity of the very sensible things you say. It is not necessary to offend anyone to get a point across, in fact the opposite. Cheers, and no offence meant.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The PH's I have hunted with did not have doubles, but wish they had.

My second safari I brought over a double rifle for my lodge owner (also a PH). To my knowledge he still hasn't fired it.

 

[Rare Breed]

I have made it a rule on here, or in life generally to never enter into personal frays, but I think it may be useful here. I don't know you OH, but I rather like you for your straightness, if that's a word. But it has to be said that you make a meal out of being fractious, unnecessarily so I feel because it undoes the validity of the very sensible things you say. It is not necessary to offend anyone to get a point across, in fact the opposite. Cheers, and no offence meant.

Mr. Peacock is very wise as usual!!!

 

[WAB]

I have made it a rule on here, or in life generally to never enter into personal frays, but I think it may be useful here. I don't know you OH, but I rather like you for your straightness, if that's a word. But it has to be said that you make a meal out of being fractious, unnecessarily so I feel because it undoes the validity of the very sensible things you say. It is not necessary to offend anyone to get a point across, in fact the opposite. Cheers, and no offence meant.

Well said Kevin. Direct speech is refreshing, fractiousness is off putting.

A wise mentor once advised me to never speak in absolutes unless you are absolutely certain. A lesson I still have to work on.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Hmmm. And one can also live life in the opposite lane. Just learn to drive carefully.

 

[375Fox]

I think we are to the meat of the matter (pun intended). I'm not a flaming ultra conservative gun nut and that bugs you. For your information I did not move to Canada to escape US gun mania. I was fired from the Park Service for working on my own time. I kid you not. There's actually a regulation. Came home from working a temp clerical job one day to find my new Canadian wife in tears. "I don't want to live in a country that treats you that way. You gave up a part of your life and your body serving and they do that." Told her as soon as she could find a job, I'd pack my bags. She flew here for an interview in '89 and called me that night. The university offered her a position: "I saw the darnedest thing driving outside of town. A yellow warning sign with moose in it." I told her to take the job! So now you know the rest of the story.

I don't mind swimming against the current. Always finding my own way. And I'm not afraid to speak frankly. That is supposed to be a virtue. Never been into spending money to impress people or fit a romantic image. Not my thing. It can become an addiction ... to arrogance. I find it amusing that someone would call me arrogant. My vehicle is a '99 Jimmy with 300K miles and a different color hood (thanks to Montana muley buck). I shoot a rifle that may have killed Japanese soldiers in the South Pacific. My hunting dog was born on a bus driver's garage floor. I live in an 800 sq ft home built in 1929. My safari hat is a ball cap. But I am wealthy enough to hunt Africa every year ... without touching anything but interest on investments. Yet, I am arrogant? I think the problem for you is I am not "arrogant." And somewhat proud of it. Perhaps too much. I'll try to tone it down.

One can live life in the fast lane without driving a sports car. Just push the pedal to the floor.

No it bothers me that you don’t know what you don’t know but ask no questions. From your posts, you’ve hunted with only one outfitter in one part of South Africa and no where else on the continent. South Africa is a big place and Africa is a bigger place. State what you know instead of what you don’t want to know. I can agree being practical, but your posts border on jealousy of those that are willing to or can afford more. Some of your experience is very valid, but you seem to make it a point to preface this with an opinion about something you have no experience with to justify your beliefs which often discredits any value you could provide.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

No it bothers me that you don’t know what you don’t know but ask no questions. From your posts, you’ve hunted with only one outfitter in one part of South Africa and no where else on the continent. South Africa is a big place and Africa is a bigger place. State what you know instead of what you don’t want to know. I can agree being practical, but your posts border on jealousy of those that are willing to or can afford more. Some of your experience is very valid, but you seem to make it a point to preface this with an opinion about something you have no experience with to justify your beliefs which often discredits any value you could provide.

Jealous? Really? Clearly you miss the point. Obviously I have the resources and time to hunt anywhere anytime with any gun I wish. My lodge in South Africa has been a good fit. And as I'm sure you can appreciate by now, I'm not a typical "fit." So why shouldn't I go back and hunt with them? They are my friends. I'm happy to support them. So far they have supplied this complicated guy with fine challenging hunting opportunities. Not every animal is gold medal but that really doesn't matter to me. I enjoy the company of farmers in their homes much more than hanging out with rich fancy dudes around a campfire. Just the way I am. And they have accommodated. You are definitely cut from different cloth, but don't flatter yourself. Yours is not the suit I want to wear. You are happy with it and good for you.

I know about fast shooting and the importance of a good fit vs quick trigger finger. Maybe I haven't hunted African jungles for forty years but I have hunted North America a LOT for more than a half century. I also know what the best professional experts in African hunting preferred and advised. Like me they felt bolt action was best. And I think Selby and Wally Johnson knew what THEY were talking about. Right? But somehow me agreeing with them is speaking in ignorance? And though I may not have any experience shooting elephants (inexperience that I prefer), I do have a helluva lot of experience shooting running and flying game (including one Cape buffalo). So I'm not a novice by any standards ... except yours ... because I don't shoot a double rifle ... in "wild" Africa.

 

[375Fox]

Jealous? Really? Clearly you miss the point. Obviously I have the resources and time to hunt anywhere anytime with any gun I wish. My lodge in South Africa has been a good fit. And as I'm sure you can appreciate by now, I'm not a typical "fit." So why shouldn't I go back and hunt with them? They are my friends. I'm happy to support them. So far they have supplied this complicated guy with fine challenging hunting opportunities. Not every animal is gold medal but that really doesn't matter to me. I enjoy the company of farmers in their homes much more than hanging out with rich fancy dudes around a campfire. Just the way I am. And they have accommodated. You are definitely cut from different cloth, but don't flatter yourself. Yours is not the suit I want to wear. You are happy with it and good for you.

I know about fast shooting and the importance of a good fit vs quick trigger finger. Maybe I haven't hunted African jungles for forty years but I have hunted North America a LOT for more than a half century. I also know what the best professional experts in African hunting preferred and advised. Like me they felt bolt action was best. And I think Selby and Wally Johnson knew what THEY were talking about. Right? But somehow me agreeing with them is speaking in ignorance? And though I may not have any experience shooting elephants (inexperience that I prefer), I do have a helluva lot of experience shooting running and flying game (including one Cape buffalo). So I'm not a novice by any standards ... except yours ... because I don't shoot a double rifle ... in "wild" Africa.

I’ll rewrite your post for you and maybe you will get it. This would get you a much better response in a future relevant thread. Write about what you know from your own experiences. No mention of money, no mention of “rich dudes” and no mention of your superior hunting and shooting skills.

Your quote edited:
My lodge in South Africa has been a good fit. And as I'm sure you can appreciate by now, I'm not a typical "fit." So why shouldn't I go back and hunt with them? They are my friends. I'm happy to support them. So far they have supplied this complicated guy with fine challenging hunting opportunities. Not every animal is gold medal but that really doesn't matter to me. I enjoy the company of farmers in their homes. Just the way I am.

 

[Slider]

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I’ll rewrite your post for you and maybe you will get it. This would get you a much better response in a future relevant thread. Write about what you know from your own experiences. No mention of money, no mention of “rich dudes” and no mention of your superior hunting and shooting skills.

Your quote edited:
My lodge in South Africa has been a good fit. And as I'm sure you can appreciate by now, I'm not a typical "fit." So why shouldn't I go back and hunt with them? They are my friends. I'm happy to support them. So far they have supplied this complicated guy with fine challenging hunting opportunities. Not every animal is gold medal but that really doesn't matter to me. I enjoy the company of farmers in their homes. Just the way I am.

Get to work editing your own posts. There is no jealousy at issue here. Clearly I take great pride in not being you. I presume you are somehow concluding my shooting skills are "superior" to yours? I wouldn't know about that. I only know what my skills are. Which I have described. If you judge them to be superior, I'm fine with that. But I'm no trick shooter by any means. I have made shooting mistakes ... a few anyway. Anyone can be just as "superior" with a proper fitting rifle and lots of time at the range and in the field. Note that I didn't say a lot of money or expensive equipment is needed. Because it's not needed.

This has been an interesting discussion from opposite ends of the spectrum. Which is a good thing. I agree the acrimony is not needed. My preferences are mine. I don't believe I've ever said anyone was "wrong" for choosing another path. It seems some feel a desperate need to justify extravagance and get defensive about it when confronted with anything less. That's not necessary. Extravagance is not a bad thing. Spending money makes the economy work. But justifying extravagant double rifles as the safest option because they shoot fast ... well, that I don't agree with. And I'm not alone. There are some big time heavyweight professional hunters on the same team. Fast shooting is rarely good shooting. But someone can certainly enjoy hunting with an expensive artfully crafted double rifle without shooting it fast or far.

I have hunted since 1964 almost exclusively with the same sporterized $15 WWII 30-06 Springfield. There's lots more new expensive rifles available that are more attractive and more accurate with more punch and greater range. But Dad made that gun for me. Maybe it's silly to stick with it. That gun means more to me than just a simple tool to kill things. So I don't need to justify my choice. Just make it keep working within its limitations. Hunt with whatever pleases you. No need to make excuses or dig up justification. Expensive ornaments can be just as much fun to hunt with as a beat up old war horse.

 

[Tanks]

… It seems some feel a desperate need to justify extravagance and get defensive about it when confronted with anything less. That's not necessary. Extravagance is not a bad thing. Spending money makes the economy work. But justifying extravagant double rifles as the safest option because they shoot fast ... well, that I don't agree with. And I'm not alone. There are some big time heavyweight professional hunters on the same team. Fast shooting is rarely good shooting. But someone can certainly enjoy hunting with an expensive artfully crafted double rifle without shooting it fast or far.

… So I don't need to justify my choice. …

I don’t think those that buy double rifles, custom hats, fine watches etc. need to justify their choices either. Nor be judged by calling those purchases extravagant.

One thing you fail to realize is that a purchase is extravagant only if one does not have the means to purchase it without it impacting their finances. For some paying $500 for a sushi dinner is no big deal, for others a $15 hamburger is highway robbery. It is all relative.