Double rifle or bolt action?

[Slider]

You have to Hunt Buff and Ele in The Thick Jess to appreciate a Red Dot on a Double.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Double.

 

[mark-hunter]

My question is this, knowing I'm not made of money should I try to find a lower price double rifle or just save the money and hunt with my 416 Rem?

Standard equipment for average client is bolt action, and double rifle for PH.
You can hunt with your bolt action, no issues.

But things are not as simple in gun business.
Everybody on this forum knows that double rifle is bought not only for hunting, but for pleasure, joy and pride of ownership.

Now.
As you are looking at budget double rifle, you may take a look at Sabatti, or similarly priced doubles of good caliber.
But dont go for new gun, because you dont know what you will get. Cheap doubles are prone to nasty surprises.

My advise.

Look at second hand market, find owner, or seller who can show you that his gun is regulated for certain type of ammunition.
you need to see the target, confirm the load, and make sure the target is printed with your new gun.
Buying 2nd hand gun will also be a healthy thing for your budget.
look for a gun you can test before buying.
take time for this

 

[Tanks]

So ... you would shoot an animal with a rifle wearing tech sights but not want to be photographed afterwards with them on the gun? I always felt after-the-deed photos were meant to capture memorable events as they happened, as much as possible anyway. But that's just me.

I feature it in my pics.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I feature it in my pics.

Beautiful 88!

 

[Challer]

I am sure the answer is obvious but just not to me. I can buy some very nice SXS 12 G for well under $10K. So why do SXS big bore cost so much?

One the other hand, K guns and P guns at local clays shoots are common, and many people wouldn't think of not having duplicates, and these guns are awfully close to double big bores price wise. And no-one seems to complain on the clays circuits about a $10-18K over under. No not everyone has them but if you're in for any of the top five guns you're looking at close to $10K.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I'm not, by no means independently wealthy.

They are a "Work of Art" to me, which is why I'm fascinated by them. The time, the creative effort & precise engineering .. Usually, No Two Are The Same.

I find Bolts "can be" just as Magnificent.

 

[Daniel Cary]

It's Becoming a Lost Art of Craftsmanship.

Anything mass produced today is usually garbage: cars, appliances, homes, etc ..

 

[Tanks]

I am sure the answer is obvious but just not to me. I can buy some very nice SXS 12 G for well under $10K. So why do SXS big bore cost so much?

One the other hand, K guns and P guns at local clays shoots are common, and many people wouldn't think of not having duplicates, and these guns are awfully close to double big bores price wise. And no-one seems to complain on the clays circuits about a $10-18K over under. No not everyone has them but if you're in for any of the top five guns you're looking at close to $10K.

Ahem, K-80s can go over $80K depending on the model though one can get a cheaper version in the teens. P guns are similar in pricing.

No one on the clays circuit really complains because it is a one-time cost. Shooting clays can cost tens of thousands of dollars a year in ammo and clays depending on how often one practices. Not to mention travel costs for tournaments. I have been shooting close to 20K clays and shells a year since @Red Leg got me hooked on it.

 

[Red Leg]

Ahem, K-80s can go over $80K depending on the model though one can get a cheaper version in the teens. P guns are similar in pricing.

No one on the clays circuit really complains because it is a one-time cost. Shooting clays can cost tens of thousands of dollars a year in ammo and clays depending on how often one practices. Not to mention travel costs for tournaments. I have been shooting close to 20K clays and shells a year since @Red Leg got me hooked on it.

I can pull up the notes, but I did warn you.

 

[Challer]

Same. So why the disparity in complaints of clays guns vs SXS DG? Both guns can come in for $10-20K. In one case everyone complains (here), the other (shotgun sports), nothing. SXS DG is also one time cost. DG can cost tens of thousands a year. Plus travel. My conclusion has always been, at the end of the day, the cost of the gun for a guided DG hunter is a small part of the equation.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Ahem, K-80s can go over $80K depending on the model though one can get a cheaper version in the teens. P guns are similar in pricing.

No one on the clays circuit really complains because it is a one-time cost. Shooting clays can cost tens of thousands of dollars a year in ammo and clays depending on how often one practices. Not to mention travel costs for tournaments. I have been shooting close to 20K clays and shells a year since @Red Leg got me hooked on it.

What are "P" guns?
Thank you.

 

[Challer]

Perazzi. Made in Italy I believe. Something of a cult following

 

[Tanks]

Same. So why the disparity in complaints of clays guns vs SXS DG? Both guns can come in for $10-20K. In one case everyone complains (here), the other (shotgun sports), nothing. SXS DG is also one time cost. DG can cost tens of thousands a year. Plus travel. My conclusion has always been, at the end of the day, the cost of the gun for a guided DG hunter is a small part of the equation.

People that complain here are not the ones that actually buy the doubles and go hunt DG with it. Same type of people also complain about the cost of a basic O/U shotgun ($2K-$3K) and state they can shoot just as well if not better with their duck gun.

 

[Red Leg]

I am sure the answer is obvious but just not to me. I can buy some very nice SXS 12 G for well under $10K. So why do SXS big bore cost so much?

One the other hand, K guns and P guns at local clays shoots are common, and many people wouldn't think of not having duplicates, and these guns are awfully close to double big bores price wise. And no-one seems to complain on the clays circuits about a $10-18K over under. No not everyone has them but if you're in for any of the top five guns you're looking at close to $10K.

With respect to speaking generally, which is the nature of your first question, a double rifle is far more exacting a regulation process than a SxS shotgun. That adds a lot of cost. Secondly, most of the better factory rather than bench finished Italian SxS's such as most Berettas and the like with sleeved barrels and hot blued steel will sell 5 to 6X the number of similarly finished rifles. In all manufacturing, volume is an important cost factor.

With respect to your second point, I am not sure we have many members here who fit your description. You are far more likely to find someone here bragging about shooting a 38 on a clays range with his A5 than a 50 with his Perazzi or Krieghoff. To them the cost difference between a workman like OU or their pet Winchester or Remington bolt action and a basic double rifle can seem pretty significant. They have no experience comparing that cost to their K-80 or Bertuzzi.

 

[Challer]

I wish I knew what a Bertuzzi is.

As I say, I find the cost of the gun to be on the smaller side of DG hunting cost out. I have mentioned before that I have improved my "range of use" of the doubles by procuring additional barrels in 06/06 or similar, so that they serve a broader use case domestically, in addition to 375+ for DG.

The point I badly made was there is a regular category of question here regarding "buy a double or hunt more." I don't think it is either or. Both work, the cost of the gun - for guided hunting - is a smaller part of the equation than many think, particularly these days, once you add it all up. For self guided hunting, a double is more likely crazy talk.

If the gun is part of the experience for you, and you love double shotguns, double rifles are just in the same vein. They are just better dopamine generators than an auto for me. I am fortunate - I have nearly every gun I could ask for except a Cosmi. The doubles get the nod most of the time. For me they are faster on target and easier to carry. They are fun to shoot. Still love the R8s in the smaller calibers.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

People that complain here are not the ones that actually buy the doubles and go hunt DG with it. Same type of people also complain about the cost of a basic O/U shotgun ($2K-$3K) and state they can shoot just as well if not better with their duck gun.

Well ... I do have both.

Shortly after this picture was taken I refinished the Citori in oil.

And here's the field gun: 1961 A5 Magnum Twelve with Miroku barrel (+ standard Invector chokes).

I also have an A-5 Light Twelve bought new at the Seoul PX in 1972 (top).

I dressed the magnum in plastic several years ago because walnut keeps breaking down. Surprisingly, the cheap plastic stock fits best. I will only use the Citori for trap. I can do "okay" with it shooting high gun trap but I shoot skeet and clays low gun only. Low gun I just as well throw the expensive O/U at the targets. Perfect fit is essential for moving targets from low gun. Sure, I could whittle on the Citori stock to make it fit better ... but then resale value goes out the window. Also, I have absolutely NO interest in hunting with an O/U. Third shot is very often critical for cleaning up a goose that's been hit. I don't find the Citori swings as nicely as the A-5 Magnum. It looks a lot nicer but birds appreciate a gun that will kill them more efficiently. There is a LOT of truth to the old saying "Beware the man who only shoots one gun." He usually shoots it well.

Typically I shoot one round of clays a night in the forties, but I'm not spending as much time at the range this year. Frankly, it's getting boring. And I'm tired of the club drama.

 

[Red Leg]

I wish I knew what a Bertuzzi is.

As I say, I find the cost of the gun to be on the smaller side of DG hunting cost out. I have mentioned before that I have improved my "range of use" of the doubles by procuring additional barrels in 06/06 or similar, so that they serve a broader use case domestically, in addition to 375+ for DG.

The point I badly made was there is a regular category of question here regarding "buy a double or hunt more." I don't think it is either or. Both work, the cost of the gun - for guided hunting - is a smaller part of the equation than many think, particularly these days, once you add it all up. For self guided hunting, a double is more likely crazy talk.

If the gun is part of the experience for you, and you love double shotguns, double rifles are just in the same vein. They are just better dopamine generators than an auto for me. I am fortunate - I have nearly every gun I could ask for except a Cosmi. The doubles get the nod most of the time. For me they are faster on target and easier to carry. They are fun to shoot. Still love the R8s in the smaller calibers.

I actually agree with you with respect to relative cost. But few will use a double anywhere close to their investment in a fine bird or target gun. Moreover, many on this site are not the sort of shooter to make the investment on such a bird or target gun either. They are far more likely to have a gun like the Citori above or the ubiquitous Beretta 660/670 series. Neither prepares one very well for the purchase of a Heym, much less a Rigby or Westley Richards double.

Of course with respect to a bespoke English gun a K80, doesn't help very much either. A Bertuzzi might however. This one is available. I would much prefer it to a Cosmi.

Bertuzzi Venere 12 gauge one of a kind

Bertuzzi Venere 12 gauge one of a kind for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

 

[Houston Bill]

I don't fully understand why someone would put a put a red dot/RMR on a classic double rifle. Putting aside their effectiveness doesn't a modern optic on a classic double ruin the nostalgia, tradition and aesthetic? Aren't express sights part of the iconic double rifle experience? I'm not criticizing other's choices. I'm genuinely curious to understand the seeming disconnect between honoring a double rifle's heritage and using modern aiming devices. It's like installing paddle shifters on a classic sports car.

I, like @Hunting Hitman, went to using Red Dots/RMR on my doubles for the exact reasons he gave, I have a much better sight picture given my current older eyes and I am more accurate shooting my double with the red dot. No, I do not like the aesthetics of the red dot and it does take away a bit of the nostalgia for me but when hunting dangerous game I want that extra confidence and accuracy. And I do show the red dot in the pictures as one can see in my hunt reports.

 

[MD Driver]

I fought the same struggle. Bought a double only to have issues with it's just before the safari. Sold the double and returned to my CZ 458 lott, it now has 5 buffs and a lioness to its name. I use it way more than I would have a double. Either up grade your 700 with a better extractor or get a controlled round feed bolt. Save the money you would spend on the double on safaris.

Hey Mark,
OK to veer a little? Just wondering if you ever had your CZ worked on, or if you’ve been using it as is from the factory? I have one (I think) of the last .416 Rigbys made by them, but the guys in Colorado seem really booked solid with their CZ improving work. So, just wondering if yours is a stock CZ that has served you well for your DG hunts? Thanks!