Double rifle or bolt action?

[375Fox]

There's 4 here .. idk.

Again, South Africa, no shortage of PHs who want to go on an elephant hunt to get that experience. In Zimbabwe it will be one hunter and one PH and maybe an apprentice PH. Same in any wild area outside South Africa.

 

[375Fox]

This is just a deal gone wrong ..

I saw this video and was actually hoping it wouldn’t get posted to get any more circulation. However, if one good thing comes of it, if I’m ever in this situation I’m telling my PH if I can’t do it with first shot on ground I want him to finish there. I don’t want an elephant suffering like this.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

This is just a deal gone wrong ..

DONE wrong ... again, and again, and again. The shit some people put on YouTube! That footage belonged in the dumpster ... with the hunter.

 

[375Fox]

I have seen many videos where hunters carelessly wasted second shot out of their double firing too quickly. Not even close to being back on the gun. Same thing. Fancy guns and too little experience.

I think you are confusing shotguns and double rifles again. I’d have to search hard to find these videos you reference. I’m not a double rifle proponent but most appear to have a good proficiency with their double and use the second shot wisely. Those videos are easy to find.

 

[sureshot375]

@Ontario Hunter you've never hunted elephant, or rhino, or lions, or leopards. You've never hunted with a double rifle. Your whole claim to fame is having hunted two Cape buffalo in South Africa, and of course reading books and watching YouTube videos. And you somehow think this qualifies you to offer your opinion on subjects of which you have no knowledge or experience? That is the height of arrogance.

Easy there Sourpuss.

You can’t argue with the man’s logic, so instead you question his experience and then insult him.

The original question is this thread related to whether OP should buy a lower end double, or go on a hunt because he could not do both. The point our friend from the land of bag milk and poutine was trying to make was that if Selby hunted all those years with a bolt gun, then surly OP would be fine for one safari as a client. It is a valid argument.

He also made a valid observation that there is a tendency for many double shooters to wiff the second shot. That’s a fair observation based on the video evidence out there.

I don’t think he is the one being arrogant here.

Since you only want opinions from the most qualified individuals, can you find a single PH who would advise OP to skip out on a trip to buy a double? Any PH out there who would say a bolt .416 is not a suitable client rifle?

The fact of the matter is that a double is a limited utility weapon. It shines one place only, in the event of a charge. When hunting elephant having the second shot on a failed brain shot may be of some advantage, but still secondary to the ability to put the first shot in the right place.

Doubles are more difficult to shoot than a scoped bolt gun. This is a fact. This fact gets magnified as range increases.

I’d be willing to wager that double rifles in the hands of clients have caused more charges by wounding animals than they have ever stopped by a factor of 10.

 

[375Fox]

You can’t argue with the man’s logic, so instead you question his experience and then insult him.

The original question is this thread related to whether OP should buy a lower end double, or go on a hunt because he could not do both. The point our friend from the land of bag milk and poutine was trying to make was that if Selby hunted all those years with a bolt gun, then surly OP would be fine for one safari as a client. It is a valid argument.

He also made a valid observation that there is a tendency for many double shooters to wiff the second shot. That’s a fair observation based on the video evidence out there.

I don’t think he is the one being arrogant here.

Since you only want opinions from the most qualified individuals, can you find a single PH who would advise OP to skip out on a trip to buy a double? Any PH out there who would say a bolt .416 is not a suitable client rifle?

The fact of the matter is that a double is a limited utility weapon. It shines one place only, in the event of a charge. When hunting elephant having the second shot on a failed brain shot may be of some advantage, but still secondary to the ability to put the first shot in the right place.

Doubles are more difficult to shoot than a scoped bolt gun. This is a fact. This fact gets magnified as range increases.

I’d be willing to wager that double rifles in the hands of clients have caused more charges by wounding animals than they have ever stopped by a factor of 10.

I’ll ask you since you support his posts. Where are these many videos of the second shot on a double rifle being wasted? Or better yet the videos of hunters with semi-autos in Africa wasting shots after the first? I’m not a proponent of double rifles, but having an opinion is one thing, creating facts to support it is something else especially from a very limited African hunting experience as demonstrated in many other threads. Criticizing some great writers and Theodore Roosevelt is out of place as well.

 

[sureshot375]

I’ll ask you since you support his posts. Where are these many videos of the second shot on a double rifle being wasted? Or better yet the videos of hunters with semi-autos in Africa wasting shots after the first? I’m not a proponent of double rifles, but having an opinion is one thing, creating facts to support it is something else especially from a very limited African hunting experience as demonstrated in many other threads. Criticizing some great writers and Theodore Roosevelt is out of place as well.

Roosevelt is a hero in the world of conservation, but the fact remains that he was a terrible shot. This is pretty well documented and he admitted to as much.

As much as I love Hemingway, Raurk, and others, they were seriously flawed individuals. I don’t think the criticism of them is out of line.

There are plenty of videos out there of crappy shooting by clients with doubles. Many more videos with crappy shooting edited out. One that comes to mind the the video of Cal Papas, who was a double rifle expert and as I understand it an all around class act and wonderful human being, missing a buffalo with both barrels. It would have been a chip shot with a scoped bolt gun. For Cal and many others the rifle was a much a part of the experience as the hunt itself. There is nothing wrong with that. I’m leaving for Zim later this week with one gun, a double with irons. I understand his passion.

I also don’t have to agree with everything our Canadian buddy said to be offended by the way he was treated here. Calling him arrogant was uncalled for and out of line. You don’t have to be a veteran of many DG safaris across multiple countries to have a voice on this forum. Telling someone that their opinion isn’t valid because they have only hunted one buffalo in RSA is decidedly not cool in my book.

I like this forum because it is generally more civil than the rest of the internet. We should be able to voice opinions here and not be met with personal attacks.

 

[WAB]

Roosevelt is a hero in the world of conservation, but the fact remains that he was a terrible shot. This is pretty well documented and he admitted to as much.

As much as I love Hemingway, Raurk, and others, they were seriously flawed individuals. I don’t think the criticism of them is out of line.

There are plenty of videos out there of crappy shooting by clients with doubles. Many more videos with crappy shooting edited out. One that comes to mind the the video of Cal Papas, who was a double rifle expert and as I understand it an all around class act and wonderful human being, missing a buffalo with both barrels. It would have been a chip shot with a scoped bolt gun. For Cal and many others the rifle was a much a part of the experience as the hunt itself. There is nothing wrong with that. I’m leaving for Zim later this week with one gun, a double with irons. I understand his passion.

I also don’t have to agree with everything our Canadian buddy said to be offended by the way he was treated here. Calling him arrogant was uncalled for and out of line. You don’t have to be a veteran of many DG safaris across multiple countries to have a voice on this forum. Telling someone that their opinion isn’t valid because they have only hunted one buffalo in RSA is decidedly not cool in my book.

I like this forum because it is generally more civil than the rest of the internet. We should be able to voice opinions here and not be met with personal attacks.

I’m not sure he was called arrogant due to his lack of experience. I think it was more due to the tone of his posts. However, I learned a long time ago that some folks come across much differently in writing than perhaps they intend. We can all use a little grace from time to time.

 

[PerH]

Sten Cedergren liked WR .500 Ne double,which he used until he could not find ammo and sold it.

He used .470 , 2 rifles of them when cropping officer in Kenya. Later he used a .470 when in Rhodesia, Zim and elsewhere. Of bolt rifle for dg, M70 .458 Win.

 

[375Fox]

Roosevelt is a hero in the world of conservation, but the fact remains that he was a terrible shot. This is pretty well documented and he admitted to as much.

As much as I love Hemingway, Raurk, and others, they were seriously flawed individuals. I don’t think the criticism of them is out of line.

There are plenty of videos out there of crappy shooting by clients with doubles. Many more videos with crappy shooting edited out. One that comes to mind the the video of Cal Papas, who was a double rifle expert and as I understand it an all around class act and wonderful human being, missing a buffalo with both barrels. It would have been a chip shot with a scoped bolt gun. For Cal and many others the rifle was a much a part of the experience as the hunt itself. There is nothing wrong with that. I’m leaving for Zim later this week with one gun, a double with irons. I understand his passion.

I also don’t have to agree with everything our Canadian buddy said to be offended by the way he was treated here. Calling him arrogant was uncalled for and out of line. You don’t have to be a veteran of many DG safaris across multiple countries to have a voice on this forum. Telling someone that their opinion isn’t valid because they have only hunted one buffalo in RSA is decidedly not cool in my book.

I like this forum because it is generally more civil than the rest of the internet. We should be able to voice opinions here and not be met with personal attacks.

The specific charge wasn’t missing with a double due to not having a scope. It was wasting the second shot before being anywhere near on target with doubles AND AUTOMATICS in many African YouTube videos. The vast majority are good shooting, how they are edited are definitely debatable. I find it difficult not to argue with the man over his posts. Calling him arrogant may be out of line for forum, but many of his posts have a certain tone with added imagined commentary. A certain level of accuracy is expected to add value to this forum. His posts about wild Africa which he has not hunted and has no intention of doing so particularly bother me. His posts of leaving United States for Canada because he feels unsafe with so many guns in Idaho do as well, but that’s an opinion I suppose he’s entitled to. The comments about writers and Roosevelt had no purpose being added to this discussion. I’m sure Roosevelt would have benefited greatly from the quality scopes and red dots we have today, but I see no value in criticizing him 110 years later.

 

[Tanks]

The fact of the matter is that a double is a limited utility weapon. It shines one place only, in the event of a charge. When hunting elephant having the second shot on a failed brain shot may be of some advantage, but still secondary to the ability to put the first shot in the right place.

Doubles are more difficult to shoot than a scoped bolt gun. This is a fact. This fact gets magnified as range increases.

I’d be willing to wager that double rifles in the hands of clients have caused more charges by wounding animals than they have ever stopped by a factor of 10.

Well, where a double shines, according to you, is pretty important in that rare case.

I also disagree of them being more difficult to shoot for what their utility is. I shot my red stag at over 400 meters back in March with a scoped rifle. No, I would not have taken that shot with my .500NE double.

Horses for the courses. I have taken elephants in the past with either iron sight or red dot bolt rifles. Not any easier or harder than my doubles.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I saw this video and was actually hoping it wouldn’t get posted to get any more circulation. However, if one good thing comes of it, if I’m ever in this situation I’m telling my PH if I can’t do it with first shot on ground I want him to finish there. I don’t want an elephant suffering like this.

I am sorry, it is sick. .. But understand your point, I don't know how many people are involved here, but often see way too many people on some of these clips ...

I could imagine an Elephant hunt being extremely stressful @ times ..

 

[WAB]

I am sorry, it is sick. .. But understand your point, I don't know how many people are involved here, but often see way too many people on some of these clips ...

I could imagine an Elephant hunt being extremely stressful @ times ..

You imagine correctly!

 

[fourfive8]

Big money or not for a quality double, why would I want to handicap myself in trying to cleanly kill an animal? I've shot double rifles but wouldn't think of hunting with one. To me, they seem clubby compared to a well fitting scoped bolt gun and no way do they feel like I could put a bullet or two or three or four where I wanted with precision, under stress, especially with open sights. IMO, their appeal to many seems mostly for appearance and tradition and photos and videos- I guess some form of anachronism for time travel back to the "golden age of safari". Also interesting to me... I've hunted with some very eperienced and well known PHs and outfitters- none have carried a double for backup. But many have very high end doubles that they will pull out for discussion and show and tell around the evening fire. Oh, and none have needed to or even asked to have marketing photos or videos taken during the hunt and I certainly haven't

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Big money or not for a quality double, why would I want to handicap myself in trying to cleanly kill an animal? I've shot double rifles but wouldn't think of hunting with one. To me, they seem clubby compared to a well fitting scoped bolt gun and no way do they feel like I could put a bullet or two or three or four where I wanted with precision, under stress, especially with open sights. IMO, their appeal to many seems mostly for appearance and tradition and photos and videos- I guess some form of anachronism for time travel back to the "golden age of safari". Also interesting to me... I've hunted with some very eperienced and well known PHs and outfitters- none have carried a double for backup. But many have very high end doubles that they will pull out for discussion and show and tell around the evening fire. Oh, and none have needed to or even asked to have marketing photos or videos taken during the hunt and I certainly haven't

Wow.. You might want to change your name to “threeseven5” as you can apply your logic to caliber as well as platform. Assuming your username is in reference to a .458 caliber cartridge.. I also assume you would never dream of bow hunting either?

 

[Red Leg]

Big money or not for a quality double, why would I want to handicap myself in trying to cleanly kill an animal? I've shot double rifles but wouldn't think of hunting with one. To me, they seem clubby compared to a well fitting scoped bolt gun and no way do they feel like I could put a bullet or two or three or four where I wanted with precision, under stress, especially with open sights. IMO, their appeal to many seems mostly for appearance and tradition and photos and videos- I guess some form of anachronism for time travel back to the "golden age of safari". Also interesting to me... I've hunted with some very eperienced and well known PHs and outfitters- none have carried a double for backup. But many have very high end doubles that they will pull out for discussion and show and tell around the evening fire. Oh, and none have needed to or even asked to have marketing photos or videos taken during the hunt and I certainly haven't

I have hunted with Jamy Traut and Nick Nolte both of whom carry K-Guns - the former a .500 and the latter a .470. Both are iron sighted and both are used purely as intended which is to clean up messes caused by clients. Nick's DG focus is leopard and he has stopped several off the end of that .470. Jamy has sorted out several buffalo and elephant with his. For that sort of work - a true back up rifle - I think a double is about perfect.

If your comments are directed toward the client then I would agree. That short range, quick shooting perfection is why an iron sighted double normally usually most of the time makes a pretty poor choice for a client on his first DG hunt.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Big money or not for a quality double, why would I want to handicap myself in trying to cleanly kill an animal? I've shot double rifles but wouldn't think of hunting with one. To me, they seem clubby compared to a well fitting scoped bolt gun and no way do they feel like I could put a bullet or two or three or four where I wanted with precision, under stress, especially with open sights. IMO, their appeal to many seems mostly for appearance and tradition and photos and videos- I guess some form of anachronism for time travel back to the "golden age of safari". Also interesting to me... I've hunted with some very eperienced and well known PHs and outfitters- none have carried a double for backup. But many have very high end doubles that they will pull out for discussion and show and tell around the evening fire. Oh, and none have needed to or even asked to have marketing photos or videos taken during the hunt and I certainly haven't

Also your reasoning is flawed from the get go as the question isn’t whether or not you can cleanly kill an animal with an open sighted double so much as it is at what distance it can be done.

 

[375Fox]

I am sorry, it is sick. .. But understand your point, I don't know how many people are involved here, but often see way too many people on some of these clips ...

I could imagine an Elephant hunt being extremely stressful @ times ..

If you want to watch a good video. This is a little slow at times, but probably best elephant hunt I’ve seen on video. I can only hope my hunt next year is half this hunt. Both PH and hunter using doubles.

 

[KJE81]

I went with a double rifle in .375 Flanged Magnum and so far it works perfectly, but unfortunately I have not yet tried it in Africa only on domestic animals in Scandinavia. The longest shot so far was 195 meters on a fox last fall during the moose hunt. The fox was dispatched cleanly, much thanks to the the Swarovski 1-8 scope, still proves it can be used without trouble out to 200 meters anyway, perhaps even longer, but 200 meters is the longest distance I have shoot mine.

 

[375Fox]

Big money or not for a quality double, why would I want to handicap myself in trying to cleanly kill an animal? I've shot double rifles but wouldn't think of hunting with one. To me, they seem clubby compared to a well fitting scoped bolt gun and no way do they feel like I could put a bullet or two or three or four where I wanted with precision, under stress, especially with open sights. IMO, their appeal to many seems mostly for appearance and tradition and photos and videos- I guess some form of anachronism for time travel back to the "golden age of safari". Also interesting to me... I've hunted with some very eperienced and well known PHs and outfitters- none have carried a double for backup. But many have very high end doubles that they will pull out for discussion and show and tell around the evening fire. Oh, and none have needed to or even asked to have marketing photos or videos taken during the hunt and I certainly haven't

I’ve hunted with some very well known and experienced PHs and outfitters as well. All but one carried a double. One of the PHs would not have been there that year without his double. His client fell over at shot and the tuskless charged then another cow charged. PHs carry doubles as a backup for a reason, but it’s cost prohibitive to many unfortunately. A clients job is a good first shot. I’ll keep choosing by bolt action with a scope for that.