Do the 577 and 600 nitro really offer anything?

[Flewis]

I’m partial to my Hollis 577, even though I haven’t hunted mine yet it has accounted for a number of the Big Game in Africa in the hands of Tony Sanchez Arino, over 120 Elephant and so on. It’s super accurate and nice to shoot. George Neary was following an old big bull Elephant one time and in the thick stuff couldn’t get ahead of it, he shot his 577 Rigby in the rear of the Elephant and it came out the front and nicked the ivory, Truman Fowler was a fan also of the 577. View attachment 602492View attachment 602493View attachment 602494View attachment 602495View attachment 602496

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone shoot the really big stuff like you can. Haven’t met anyone who knows more about it than you either.

 

[grand veneur]

He speaking from both perspectives. He’s never owned a 470 personally but said he’s seen more wounded elephants from a 470 than anything else over the years. Not all the wounded elephants he's seen, were the result of a bad shot. He personally shoots a bolt action 500J. As someone with both a 470 and a 500 double that is considering selling one. He's suggested selling the 470, but like you I'm more inclined to keep the 470 since it fits me a better than my 500.

I also think that you should primarily use the big bore rifle that fits you well. Ultimately, it seems to be true that the bigger the caliber, the better the working, provided the bullet structure and the shot placement are comparable.

 

[PCC600]

Not a .600

but my .505 Gibbs yesterday morning. 25 yards, with a red dot. Free hand.

Five shots at elephant distance


View attachment 602030

The other holes are 50 yards off sticks.

Got to love the 505 . I am a huge fan boy . Got one and another nearing completion .

 

[Altitude sickness]

I shot my .416 Taylor at the same time as the .505. Also 25 yards. I shot CEB solids first, then taped the target, then shot safari raptors and the point of impact was pretty much on top of each solids. Then dialed the scope over an inch and confirmed the zero.

Practicing for tuskless, backing up my wife’s Buffalo and hopefully Eland.

 

[grand veneur]

Test with a magnet for steel content. Pre 1950 Kynoch FMJ solids had a gilding metal jacket (with the exception of the .350 Rigby Magnum and the .416 Rigby) and thus, will not attract a magnet. Kynoch FMJ solids made between 1950-1969 will have steel jackets (courtesy of the combined machinations of James Purdey & Sons and Don Hopkins) and will thus, attract a magnet.View attachment 602412

In the meantime I did the test with the magnet. It was just like you said. A clear difference between the two bullets in terms of alloy.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

In the meantime I did the test with the magnet. It was just like you said. A clear difference between the two bullets in terms of alloy.

The .577 Nitro Express FMJ solid bullets with the steel jacket jacket were manufactured by ICI Kynoch from 1950-1962 at their factory in Great Britain and the last consignment of .577 Nitro Express ammunition was loaded by them in 1967 (from components manufactured prior to 1962).

By contrast, these Kynoch 220Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid bullets were actually manufactured by Norma in Sweden for ICI Kynoch and loaded by Kynoch at their Great Britain factory from 1962-1969.

Here’s a pulled bullet from an old factory load that I’m holding up by a magnet. Observe the excellent jacket thickness.

I used one of these solids out of an Anschutz Model 110 to down this gigantic seladang bison bull in Northern Thailand in 1979.

Recovered bullet looked almost like it could be fired again, barring the marks of the rifling grooves and getting a little flattened. Good old Swedish bullet construction, perhaps ?

 

[grand veneur]

I think that there already were good bullets decades ago. A lot depended on the manufacturer, and some had a better reputation than others when it came to the thickness and strength of the jacket of their bullets. It is repeated by many hunters and even authors what some had written negatively about bullets decades if not a century ago. I don't know if many of these people have checked these cartridges and bullets themselves, let alone tested them.

If you read what some people are writing nowadays, big game hunting is not possible without bullets from Swift or Barnes for example. It is absolutely true that thin-walled bullets from some companies, for example the 22,5g FMJ bullet from RWS for the cartridge 10,75x68, have given some cartridges a bad reputation. I tested the old ammunition 10,75x68 from RWS myself, it's sure, I did not want to shot buffalos with it in the long run. On the other hand, I shot several buffalos with old cartridges caliber 9,3x74R from DWM, a company that stopped production in 1972, without deformation of the classic FMJ bullet from this company. I therefore remain of the opinion that some bullets worked very well back then, also with the cartridges 577 Nitro Express and 600 Nitro Express, but in contrast to nowadays, people would have to pay more attention to from which company they ordered their cartridges.

DWM 9,3x74R AMMO from the sixties. 19g FMJ bullet / buffalo.

 

[grand veneur]

In the years that followed, RWS also tried to produce better bullets for big game hunting. On the picture is a bullet from one of my cartridges 9,3x64 Brenneke, ammunition from the eighties. The jacket of the bullet is significantly stronger than that of its predecessors. The same will also apply to the cartridge 577 Nitro Express, which certainly did not always fail before the bullets that we call modern were introduced.

RWS 9,3mm 18,5g FMJ bullet

 

[grand veneur]

Summarized, not everything used earlier was bad and even without our high-tech bullets, cartridges like the 577 Nitro Express or 600 Nitro Express worked often well.

 

[IvW]

The .577 Nitro Express FMJ solid bullets with the steel jacket jacket were manufactured by ICI Kynoch from 1950-1962 at their factory in Great Britain and the last consignment of .577 Nitro Express ammunition was loaded by them in 1967 (from components manufactured prior to 1962).

By contrast, these Kynoch 220Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid bullets were actually manufactured by Norma in Sweden for ICI Kynoch and loaded by Kynoch at their Great Britain factory from 1962-1969.
View attachment 603277
Here’s a pulled bullet from an old factory load that I’m holding up by a magnet. Observe the excellent jacket thickness.
View attachment 603284
I used one of these solids out of an Anschutz Model 110 to down this gigantic seladang bison bull in Northern Thailand in 1979.
View attachment 603285
Recovered bullet looked almost like it could be fired again, barring the marks of the rifling grooves and getting a little flattened. Good old Swedish bullet construction, perhaps ?

A seladang is a Gaur this looks like a cow....
In Thailand there were 150 Gaur at the turn of the century and less than 1000 in 1990....
Never knew that hunting them was allowed..

 

[Hunter-Habib]

A seladang is a Gaur this looks like a cow....
In Thailand there were 150 Gaur at the turn of the century and less than 1000 in 1990....
Never knew that hunting them was allowed..

No, IvW. This is a bull. Game laws in rural Northern Thailand were not very strictly enforced up until the late 1980s (except for the jungle elephant which was ferociously protected even back in those days). As a matter of fact, Seladang were regularly hunted by the tribal people in rural Northern Thailand for their horns and meat well into the early 1990s.

There is a very good book called "Tracks Of An Intruder" written by one Mr. Gordon Young. He was an American who hunted in 1950s era rural Thailand. He hunted an Asian black bear, a leopard & a seladang over there as well. You will like the book a lot if you manage to find a copy.

But there were no organized safaris/shikars back in Thailand in those days. You would have to have friends there who could take you hunting.

Even today, in rural Thailand.... the game department allows small scale hunting of Wilson snipe, Muntjac deer & wild boar amongst locals.

 

[IvW]

Ok a cow with balls.....

 

[Flewis]

Lots of those in the LA area.

 

[grand veneur]

It is not always easy to distinguish between Asian buffalo species just by their horns. In contrast to Africa, many of these species were domesticated in Asia at some point and there are numerous hybrids, so that differentiation is often very difficult as long as you don't see the whole animal in front of your eyes, and then doubts sometimes remain.

Not much is written about hunting Asian buffalos because it is hardly no more possible nowadays in all countries of South-Asia, especially not in Thailand. There is a good book on the subject, HORNED GIANTS Hunting Eurasian Wild Cattle by Capt. John H.Brandt, in which a lot is discussed about the various species of Eurasian buffalos and their hunting. Since I am one of the rare hunters who have at the end of the 20th century shot big game in Southeast Asia and have also seen Seladangs in the wild, I am very sensitive to the topic. There were trophies pictured in the book and I initially doubted too the nature of the species. That's why I contacted the author, and he assured me that there was no doubt about the trophies pictured because he had shot them himself. In this respect, we don't need to argue whether the picture is of a Gaur or the subspecies Seladang.

 

[Pondoro]

Ok a cow with balls.....

What is your reason for being so patronizing..?

 

[IvW]

Because it looks like a cow and not a gaur......

 

[IvW]

You believe everything you read?

 

[grand veneur]

Maybe it is a wild Gayal. The shape of the head and the horns could match it. As I said, it's not always easy to judge Asian buffalos. The transition from tame to wild is small in countries where all buffalo species have been domesticated over thousands of years.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Dear IvW,

It's always good to doubt whatever you read. I myself have doubts too about a lot of things which other members claim.

I don't mind your questions, even though I'm old enough to understand that some of them are expressed with a tone of skepticism. No, no. Rather, I encourage it. Healthy discussion is always good (and if nothing else... we'll have learnt something from you expressing your doubts).

But I would encourage you to keep an open mind, especially about hunting game animals which you have no first degree knowledge about hunting (beyond a rudimentary read on the internet). For instance: I do the same as far as the subject of hunting rhinoceros goes. I read extensively about the subject but have never actually been fortunate enough to hunt one yet. But you have (or at least you claim to). And I would honestly love to get your insights about rhinoceros hunting someday. I would consider it to be invaluable.

@grand veneur & myself have hunted in Asia quite a few times. Or at least we claim to. And have multiple photographs of ourselves partaking in those hunts. Or at least (in my case) photographs of the same tall, dark, handsome mustached Asian man in all my Asian/African/Australian/American/European hunting photographs which I've posted on these forums so far. So at the very least, I'm one hell of an impersonator (who looks & sounds just like the same man when I’m chatting with many of our fellow forum members on video call or phone). But I guess that we can never really know or fully trust the people who we meet online. The internet is one scary & mysterious place, after all.

There will always be at least 1% doubt regarding every hunter's alleged accomplishments (unless one witnessed the accomplishments first hand). For instance: The late @Major Khan was very fond of telling people that I made one of my forest guards shoot my three man eating Royal Bengal tigers and simply posed with the carcasses for the photographs. Mark Sullivan, Buzz Charlton, Jeff Rann (and the like) have actual videos of their hunts but people still doubt if they actually happened the way the hunters claim they did.

But I choose to be trusting towards my fellow man. Or at least, to give him the benefit of the doubt (if possible). For instance: You are a white hunter. Or at least you claim to be. You don't have a single photograph with any dangerous game hunted in your long & successful career. Yet your knowledge about African wildlife and ballistics is quite enviable. I personally believe you.

What I'm really trying to say is:
Read "Tracks Of An Intruder"
Read "Horned Giants"
Read "Tigers Of Trennganu"
Read "Hutan Rimba"

All these books contain identical hunting photographs to my Seladang. And then, if you still doubt me... well, I guess I'll have to live with that.

The animal which I’m next to in the photograph could be a gaur. It could be a pyoung. It could be a gayal. It could be a cross breed subspecies. Those of us who hunted them in rural Northern Thailand & Malaysia back in those days… called it “Seladang”. And that’s what I’ve been calling it all my life (for lack of a better word).

Warmest Regards,
Habib

P.S: I mean not to cast doubt on your credibility as a white hunter. I have no doubt that you are an excellent one. Anybody who helped developed Rhino bullets is an A Grade fellow in my books. But I was just trying to draw an analogy. Forgive the imprudence.

 

[grand veneur]

We have a little bit deviated from the topic, but the question was:

Do the 577 and 600 nitro really offer anything?

...and the answer is in this case yes if you look at the terrain where, among other things, Gaur, Gayal and Seladangs were hunted. These buffalos are the biggest of their species, very aggressive and therefore no one would feel over-gunned in the dense mountain rain forest with a DR caliber 577 Nitro Express.