Do the 577 and 600 nitro really offer anything?

[Philip Glass]

I've heard from multiple PH's they thought the 470 didn't perform as well as the 500.

I had a Zim PH tell me earlier this year he prefers the 450-400 to the 470, but the 500 in his opinion is superior to both and would be his recommendation to anyone shopping for a double. He did say it might be a personal bias since a lot of clients buy a 470 and can't shoot it so he's seen WAY too many wounded Elephants and Buffalo. I know he's used a .577 as well but didn't get his opinion on that but now you made me ask.

It is always neat to hear what those very experienced guys say. Were they speaking from A clients or PH perspective?
Truth be told a good shot from any legal caliber will kill a buffalo as will a good brain or heart lung on ele. The bigger calibers come into play as a stopper in a situation no one want to be in. Funny enough I think every DG PH I've hunted with but one used a .458 Bolt gun. I can only remember one having a double.
I am now shooting a .450/400 but if I didn't have so much neck trouble I'd likely have a .500.

 

[HankBuck]

I didn'tfind the measurements just now, but the penetration for that middle shot is substantial. View attachment 602213

Great illustrations - helps understand a lot….thanks

 

[ActionBob]

Great illustrations - helps understand a lot….thanks

Go hunt one! Absolutely nothing like it. Get in under 25 yards and it is amazing how high you are holding your rifle.

 

[HankBuck]

Go hunt one! Absolutely nothing like it. Get in under 25 yards and it is amazing how high you are holding your rifle.

@ActionBob what’s amazing to Me about an Elephant hunt is the Cost. If I ever went to hunt one I think it would be “boring“ compared to the excitement & certain Death I’d face at Home——from my Wife (when the bills hit).

 

[zephyr]

My 505 which I had built for me on a GMA action is a "Right"handed Bolt built for a "Left" hand shooter ... Meaning the stock is bend for "Left" handed shooter or has Cast On... The gun weighs 11.5lbs loaded and yes you can carry it all day

 

[Uintaelkhunter]

https://americanshootingjournal.com/577-nitro-express-ammo/
here is a good article on the 577. I know Karl Stumpfe uses a 577 nitro as one of his backup rifles for elephants in the Caprivi. I hope he will chime in with his thoughts.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Just to put some comparative numbers to this discussion on penetration:

1. 700 NE - 1,000 grain - Section Density of .292
2. 600 NE - 900 grain - Sectional Density of .334
3. 577 NE - 750 grain - Sectional Density of .313
4. 500 NE - 570 grain -Sectional Density of .313
5. .458 cal - 500 grain - Sectional Density of .341

So judging by this the .458 remains the king of penetration followed by the 600NE. The .577NE and 500NE are equal which is interesting since you hear accounts of those that "dropped down" to the 500 for better penetration on thick skinned game.

The 700NE trails all of the above and doesn't quite meet that desired SD of 0.300 which is recommended For DG.

 

[grand veneur]

https://americanshootingjournal.com/577-nitro-express-ammo/
here is a good article on the 577. I know Karl Stumpfe uses a 577 nitro as one of his backup rifles for elephants in the Caprivi. I hope he will chime in with his thoughts.

A good article, I enjoyed the reading.

As far as the old bullets are concerned, since I still have some old ammunition in stock, I looked at some 750gr FMJ bullets from Kynoch's cartridges.

On the left we have a bullet from an old series. I don't know how old because the ammunition was not in the original packaging. It is understandable that such bullets are broken.

On the right we have a bullet from the fifties or early sixties, according to the codes of the original packs. The jacket of this bullet is noticeably thicker. I suspect that such bullets did show a certain degree of effectiveness, but they are certainly not comparable to bullets from Woodleigh or Degol.

 

[HankBuck]

My 505 which I had built for me on a GMA action is a "Right"handed Bolt built for a "Left" hand shooter ... Meaning the stock is bend for "Left" handed shooter or has Cast On... The gun weighs 11.5lbs loaded and yes you can carry it all day

@zephyr as a Lefty who has had several custom bolt actions built — gotta ask Why? Why a Lefty stock & cast but a Right handed bolt? “Cast” of a rifle is almost meaningless (especially w/a Scope) compared to operating a bolt action Wrong-Handed. I can think of 2 reasons for building your rifle this way: 1). You will eventually sell the rifle and it’s easier to sell a right handed action then just change the stock. 2). You were previously in the “Circus” as a trick-shooting-double-jointed contortionist ?? While most Lefty’s learn to adapt to a right handed World and can operate a right handed bolt —- it would Not be my preference on a custom rifle….

 

[Hunter-Habib]

A good article, I enjoyed the reading.

As far as the old bullets are concerned, since I still have some old ammunition in stock, I looked at some 750gr FMJ bullets from Kynoch's cartridges.

On the left we have a bullet from an old series. I don't know how old because the ammunition was not in the original packaging. It is understandable that such bullets are broken.

On the right we have a bullet from the fifties or early sixties, according to the codes of the original packs. The jacket of this bullet is noticeably thicker. I suspect that such bullets did show a certain degree of effectiveness, but they are certainly not comparable to bullets from Woodleigh or Degol.

View attachment 602407
View attachment 602408

Test with a magnet for steel content. Pre 1950 Kynoch FMJ solids had a gilding metal jacket (with the exception of the .350 Rigby Magnum and the .416 Rigby) and thus, will not attract a magnet. Kynoch FMJ solids made between 1950-1969 will have steel jackets (courtesy of the combined machinations of James Purdey & Sons and Don Hopkins) and will thus, attract a magnet.

 

[SETH RINGER]

NOTHING THAT A .45-70 WOUNT DO!

 

[GeorgeGibbs505]

I’m partial to my Hollis 577, even though I haven’t hunted mine yet it has accounted for a number of the Big Game in Africa in the hands of Tony Sanchez Arino, over 120 Elephant and so on. It’s super accurate and nice to shoot. George Neary was following an old big bull Elephant one time and in the thick stuff couldn’t get ahead of it, he shot his 577 Rigby in the rear of the Elephant and it came out the front and nicked the ivory, Truman Fowler was a fan also of the 577.

 

[vette447]

Your Hollis is truly special. Beautiful rifle with excellent pedigree and provenance. Looks like it is a sweet shooter too!

 

[Safari Dave]

In a single word...

NO

IMO - The best DR is .470 NE
- The best BA is .416 Rigby

 

[IvW]

Just to put some comparative numbers to this discussion on penetration:

1. 700 NE - 1,000 grain - Section Density of .292
2. 600 NE - 900 grain - Sectional Density of .334
3. 577 NE - 750 grain - Sectional Density of .313
4. 500 NE - 570 grain -Sectional Density of .313
5. .458 cal - 500 grain - Sectional Density of .341

So judging by this the .458 remains the king of penetration followed by the 600NE. The .577NE and 500NE are equal which is interesting since you hear accounts of those that "dropped down" to the 500 for better penetration on thick skinned game.

The 700NE trails all of the above and doesn't quite meet that desired SD of 0.300 which is recommended For DG.

SD is one of the most important for penetration but so is bullet nose design(meplat vs round nose) and then adequite velocity.

A 570gr. Meplat brass solid travelling at 2250 to 2350fps from a 500 Jeff will out penetrate any of the above by a long margin.

 

[IvW]

I’m partial to my Hollis 577, even though I haven’t hunted mine yet it has accounted for a number of the Big Game in Africa in the hands of Tony Sanchez Arino, over 120 Elephant and so on. It’s super accurate and nice to shoot. George Neary was following an old big bull Elephant one time and in the thick stuff couldn’t get ahead of it, he shot his 577 Rigby in the rear of the Elephant and it came out the front and nicked the ivory, Truman Fowler was a fan also of the 577. View attachment 602492View attachment 602493View attachment 602494View attachment 602495View attachment 602496

That is so but the most devestatingly effective caliber he used and favoures is a 500 Jeff not a 577.......

 

[grand veneur]

In one of his books, Tony Sanchez Arino writes that he used a rifle caliber 500 Jeffery from 1986 and shot around 120 elephants with it so that he shot about as many elephants with the cartridge 500 Jeffery as with the cartridge 577 Nitro Express. However, he praises both cartridges and considers them to be the best cartridges that you can use for elephant hunting.

 

[Altitude sickness]

nice shooting GeorgeGibbs. With the diameter of those holes. If that was a .375 your groups would be 1”

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

It is always neat to hear what those very experienced guys say. Were they speaking from A clients or PH perspective?
Truth be told a good shot from any legal caliber will kill a buffalo as will a good brain or heart lung on ele. The bigger calibers come into play as a stopper in a situation no one want to be in. Funny enough I think every DG PH I've hunted with but one used a .458 Bolt gun. I can only remember one having a double.
I am now shooting a .450/400 but if I didn't have so much neck trouble I'd likely have a .500.

He speaking from both perspectives. He’s never owned a 470 personally but said he’s seen more wounded elephants from a 470 than anything else over the years. Not all the wounded elephants he's seen, were the result of a bad shot. He personally shoots a bolt action 500J. As someone with both a 470 and a 500 double that is considering selling one. He's suggested selling the 470, but like you I'm more inclined to keep the 470 since it fits me a better than my 500.

 

[Wyfox]

Cory Knowlton primarily uses a 600ne, screenshot of one of his posts. Highly reccomend following him on Instagram if you have it. He hunts ALOT of big bulls.