Do the 577 and 600 nitro really offer anything?

[Aaron N]

Jeff now shifted to a William Evans boxlock ejector in .500 Nitro Express because field experience has taught him that the 570Gr bullet at 2150 FPS (of the .500 Nitro Express) will out-penetrate the 750Gr bullet at 2050 FPS (of the .577 Nitro Express). He also recently purchased a pre-World War II Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector in .500 Nitro Express and will be using that in Botswana for the coming season (along with his .505 Gibbs which was built by John Boliger for him on a left handed Granite Mountain Arms African Magnum Mauser action).
View attachment 601866
Jeff's rifles for the coming season View attachment 601865
The Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector .500 Nitro Express (Holland & Holland is Jeff's favorite double rifle brand above all others)

To answer the original poster's question, in all practical terms ... A .500 Nitro Express/.500 Jeffery/.505 Gibbs/.500 A Square is the largest practical size of caliber which most hunters (even white hunters) are capable of properly handling.

That said, calibers like .577 or .600 Nitro Express are not meant to be 100 % practical. They're food for the soul for certain crazed & irrational dare devils (such as myself). And for those who learn to counteract the recoil... these calibers prove their worth when it comes to stopping large & dangerous inbound creatures when it's a matter of life or death. Of course, you still have to land a shot in the proper region in order to ensure success (which is generally difficult for a many but the most stubborn of hunters with these calibers).

Personally speaking, the .600 Nitro Express is a dream caliber of mine. I have only hunted with this caliber on one occasion till now- A hippopotamus bull on land with a .600 Nitro Express Heym Jumbo sidelock ejector. Ammunition was Labor Fur Ballistik 900Gr tombac jacketed FMJ solid factory loads.

Was it effective ? I'll let you all decide.
View attachment 601867
50 years of shooting hippopotamus on land with .375 Holland & Holland Magnums (and a couple with .404 Jeffery and .458 Winchester Magnum)... has never allowed me to see this level of ballistic terminal effect on a hippopotamus with any other caliber. Someday, that Heym Jumbo is going to be mine.

My friend, white hunter Mark Sullivan recently purchased this beautiful Charles Osborne back action hammer .600 Nitro Express (built in 1911) and hopes to use it in Tanzania the coming season.
View attachment 601869

Is that the Gibbs without any sort of recoil pad?!

 

[ActionBob]

It might lead to rumors regarding the size of certain bodyparts..

Very big ego, other parts maybe not so much. LOL

 

[ActionBob]

Seriously now, I want a 577 NE for the very best and really only good reason I can think of.... Because I want one

I do remember reading a very detailed report on penetration studies. It was probably on here? The 577NE fell short because of the larger frontal area encountering more resistance as it travels through hide, muscle and bone. Of the calibers tested I recall it was about the worst of all for elephant where penetration on a frontal shot through almost 3 feet of trunk muscle and bone to get to the brain. The 375 H&H was as good or better than anything else.

With the impression that article left on me, I would not take one elephant hunting. Not only the penetration but the walking with such a heavy beast of a gun!

I would love to try one on buffalo, hippo, or maybe even lion

 

[Tanks]

With the impression that article left on me, I would not take one elephant hunting. Not only the penetration but the walking with such a heavy beast of a gun!

I would love to try one on buffalo, hippo, or maybe even lion

Yeah, I looked at .577 and the doubles were just much heavier than I wished to schlepp for miles and miles. Especially on hilly country. I’ll stick with my .500. After several elephants and buffalo I am happy with the performance of the .500.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Is that the Gibbs without any sort of recoil pad?!

That's the one. John Boliger .505 Gibbs built on a left handed Granite Mountain Arms African Magnum Mauser action.

 

[Aaron N]

That's the one. John Boliger .505 Gibbs built on a left handed Granite Mountain Arms African Magnum Mauser action.

It either has to be hell to carry or hell to shoot

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Nostalgia and history.

Well put. I would add "common sense out the window."

 

[HankBuck]

Seriously now, I want a 577 NE for the very best and really only good reason I can think of.... Because I want one

I do remember reading a very detailed report on penetration studies. It was probably on here? The 577NE fell short because of the larger frontal area encountering more resistance as it travels through hide, muscle and bone. Of the calibers tested I recall it was about the worst of all for elephant where penetration on a frontal shot through almost 3 feet of trunk muscle and bone to get to the brain. The 375 H&H was as good or better than anything else.

With the impression that article left on me, I would not take one elephant hunting. Not only the penetration but the walking with such a heavy beast of a gun!

I would love to try one on buffalo, hippo, or maybe even lion

@ActionBob - 3 FEET of trunk before reaching Elephant brain? is that an “Up the Nose shot”? Or maybe it’s the angle, Hunter on his back, Elephants foot on his nuts, one shot left - straight up it’s trunk and HOPE reaches Brain?

 

[Certus]

That's the one. John Boliger .505 Gibbs built on a left handed Granite Mountain Arms African Magnum Mauser action.

Isn’t that a right handed rifle pictured?

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Jeff now shifted to a William Evans boxlock ejector in .500 Nitro Express because field experience has taught him that the 570Gr bullet at 2150 FPS (of the .500 Nitro Express) will out-penetrate the 750Gr bullet at 2050 FPS (of the .577 Nitro Express). He also recently purchased a pre-World War II Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector in .500 Nitro Express and will be using that in Botswana for the coming season (along with his .505 Gibbs which was built by John Boliger for him on a left handed Granite Mountain Arms African Magnum Mauser action).
View attachment 601866
Jeff's rifles for the coming season View attachment 601865
The Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector .500 Nitro Express (Holland & Holland is Jeff's favorite double rifle brand above all others)

To answer the original poster's question, in all practical terms ... A .500 Nitro Express/.500 Jeffery/.505 Gibbs/.500 A Square is the largest practical size of caliber which most hunters (even white hunters) are capable of properly handling.

That said, calibers like .577 or .600 Nitro Express are not meant to be 100 % practical. They're food for the soul for certain crazed & irrational dare devils (such as myself). And for those who learn to counteract the recoil... these calibers prove their worth when it comes to stopping large & dangerous inbound creatures when it's a matter of life or death. Of course, you still have to land a shot in the proper region in order to ensure success (which is generally difficult for a many but the most stubborn of hunters with these calibers).

Personally speaking, the .600 Nitro Express is a dream caliber of mine. I have only hunted with this caliber on one occasion till now- A hippopotamus bull on land with a .600 Nitro Express Heym Jumbo sidelock ejector. Ammunition was Labor Fur Ballistik 900Gr tombac jacketed FMJ solid factory loads.

Was it effective ? I'll let you all decide.
View attachment 601867
50 years of shooting hippopotamus on land with .375 Holland & Holland Magnums (and a couple with .404 Jeffery and .458 Winchester Magnum)... has never allowed me to see this level of ballistic terminal effect on a hippopotamus with any other caliber. Someday, that Heym Jumbo is going to be mine.

My friend, white hunter Mark Sullivan recently purchased this beautiful Charles Osborne back action hammer .600 Nitro Express (built in 1911) and hopes to use it in Tanzania the coming season.
View attachment 601869

No recoil pad on a 505?? Odd scope choice as well

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Isn’t that a right handed rifle pictured?

@Certus & @Wishfulthinker580

Here are more photographs of the .505 Gibbs. I agree with both your assessments.

On a .505 Gibbs, I'd personally prefer a Limb Saver recoil pad and iron sights (wide V backsights & uncovered ivory bead foresight).

I didn't think it through when I posted the first photograph. But now, even I'm a little puzzled. Jeff himself told me that the .505 Gibbs is built on a LEFT HANDED Granite Mountain Arms African Magnum Mauser action. But the rifle in these photographs clearly has a right handed bolt.

Edit: I just reread Jeff's email & attached a screenshot. He doesn't specifically mention that the Granite Mountain Arms action is left handed. Only that the rifle was built "Left Handed". I'll ask him more about it on the weekend. I suspect that (much like myself & the late Harry Selby) he is actually quite comfortable operating a right handed bolt with his left hand.

 

[uplander01]

I have no desire to shoot anything to the level of recoil the 577 and 600 would have. My 500j at 90 or so ft lbs according to recoil calculator tops it off for me. That being said, to me the really big doubles like the aforementioned are simply beautiful, and look like a double should. Add to that they are all too expensive for me,…otherwise my dumb ass would probably have one lol.

 

[Tom Leoni]

As little as I need or desire to own either of these rifles, those who have used them say that yes, they do offer quite a bit more insurance and knock-down power than cartridges in the .450-.500 class.

In particular, the .577 NE seems to have been a favorite among professional ivory hunters, often as a second rifle for close encounters in really thick bush, or when following up a wounded animal--but also as a primary. According to John Taylor, Sutherland, Banks, Anderson, Hunter and Larsen (most of whom tallied over 1,000 pachyderms) used .577 doubles.

I didn't find as many big names associated to the .600, but a 900gr bullet traveling at near 2,000 fps would definitely do what the .577 does and arguably more--if you could cope with the weight and the recoil.

Speaking of recoil, Gregor Woods makes an important and easy to overlook point: when shooting either of these calibers, recovery time between shots is very long, muzzle raise being quite considerable. In his words, this almost negates the advantages of a double rifle.

 

[C.W. Richter]

"Papa far favored his 30-06 w/ 220 gr bullets than the heavy-recoiling .577 double gifted by Wm. Guest." LOL Hemmingway used to beg PHs to allow him to shoot Everything w/ his 06. A good lesson in too many women eroding your hunting/shooting budget. I believe he was Capstick's role model in certain regards, but Capstick loved the big doubles (and he's on film making things happen w/ em!) EH more deadly w/ a typewriter. PHC moreso w/ a 375 and up!

 

[Certus]

Gosh that 505 is ornate.

Anyone know which company made the most 577’s? Did Cogswell & Harrison make any .577 3” nitros?

 

[ActionBob]

@ActionBob - 3 FEET of trunk before reaching Elephant brain? is that an “Up the Nose shot”? Or maybe it’s the angle, Hunter on his back, Elephants foot on his nuts, one shot left - straight up it’s trunk and HOPE reaches Brain?

I didn'tfind the measurements just now, but the penetration for that middle shot is substantial.

 

[Scott CWO]

Good question. I am interested in hearing real world examples of the .577 Nitro against elephant and buffalo..

Mike Fell sometimes carries a .577 double rifle. He put down a wounded charging buffalo with it a couple years ago. He waited until the buffalo was very close so he couldn’t miss and killed it but the momentum of the buffalo carried into him and the horn tip penetrated his thigh, just missing the femoral artery.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

From a client perspective I think the .470 is hard to beat and bigger will likely not be more effective. From a PH perspective bigger might have some merit.
I must say that it is amazing and satisfying to take down a large animal at close range with a double. My .470 and now the .450/400 have both proven to put stuff down in their tracks. It will be interesting as I go forward with the .450/400 as to what differences I see versus .470. To date I just have one buffalo and one hippo with the smaller 400g bullet.

I've heard from multiple PH's they thought the 470 didn't perform as well as the 500.

I had a Zim PH tell me earlier this year he prefers the 450-400 to the 470, but the 500 in his opinion is superior to both and would be his recommendation to anyone shopping for a double. He did say it might be a personal bias since a lot of clients buy a 470 and can't shoot it so he's seen WAY too many wounded Elephants and Buffalo. I know he's used a .577 as well but didn't get his opinion on that but now you made me ask.

 

[Pondoro]

Thanks for all the replies fellas. One question which takes the bias or hyperbole or anecdote out of the equation is do the 577 and 600 nitro actually kill faster?

For all you fellas shooting these buff and hippos, did you notice the animal drops faster with a 577 nitro than say a 500 jeff or even 458lott?

If it doesnt I guess the question answers itself, the big calibres arent better stoppers

Carl Labuschagne, a south african PH, wrote an article about his experience with the .577NE.. He tried out most large bore cartridges from .458 via .505, .500NE and .500 A-Square.. He ended up using the .577 exclusively when guiding on pachyderms.. He stated that the stopping power was fenomenal compared to the others..providing the use of Woodleigh solids (he loaded his own ammo..)

He wrote that he once fired a snap shot (heart-lung) on a bull elephant running past him..the animal went straight down.. He also saw that the old Kynoch solids broke up, he had a box full of failed Kynochs.. Both the .577 and .600 penetrated poorly with those inferior bullets. Today it is another ballgame with the modern bullets..

 

[grand veneur]

Carl Labuschagne, a south african PH, wrote an article about his experience with the .577NE.. He tried out most large bore cartridges from .458 via .505, .500NE and .500 A-Square.. He ended up using the .577 exclusively when guiding on pachyderms.. He stated that the stopping power was fenomenal compared to the others..providing the use of Woodleigh solids (he loaded his own ammo..)

He wrote that he once fired a snap shot (heart-lung) on a bull elephant running past him..the animal went straight down.. He also saw that the old Kynoch solids broke up, he had a box full of failed Kynochs.. Both the .577 and .600 penetrated poorly with those inferior bullets. Today it is another ballgame with the modern bullets..

That's what I meant by post #37.

A clear and credible statement from someone who has tested some cartridges and bullets himself.