CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

[Excessexpress]

J.Ogilvie: Hunting and Imports were Never banned or threatened because of CBL or any other type of Hunting —- that “red herring” gets thrown out to get the fight started. There is a constant goal, by many, to ban/limit/restrict Hunting and all that hidden behind “headlines” —- today’s “headline” is CBL and tomorrow’s it will be Elephant, zebra, or something else. To believe that surrendering CBL will ward off future attacks on Hunting is being gullible…terrorists don’t bargain or negotiate but they often win because they are relentless. Love CBL or Hate it - but surrendering CBL accomplishes Nothing to protect the Future or image of Hunting.

HankBuck, J Ogilvie is 100% correct.

You won’t see the ban reversed, it wasn’t really about CBL lions, rather it was an easy win for anti-hunting campaigners. The point being that the CBL element made it impossible to deflect. Note that the ban also included Leopard, which showed that the CBL was a Trojan horse.

Sometimes we need to clean up our own act before we can defend the rest. Kind of like people who like to take a head and leave the rest in the US. They exist in microscopic number, but make it harder for everyone else.

 

[mark-hunter]

I suppose now the link between petting zoos and bone exports can now pass directly, without the fig leaf offered by CBL shooting.

Will see. I am not certain of this either.

 

[HankBuck]

That's not correct. It was specifically because of CBL shooting that lion imports to Australia were banned. This is from the Australian Government website explaining why they banned imports:


In other words, it was explicitly due to concerns over CBL shooting that lion imports were banned. You may not like that they banned all lion imports (I certainly don't), but the CBL industry is what caused it to happen. Countries that allow ethical, sustainable hunting of wild lions ultimately lost out due to the CBL industry.

As for the other examples you cited (elephant, Zebra, etc.) you can't compare them to CBL shooting. SCI, DSC and other organizations have been staunch supporters of ethical, sustainable elephant hunting, despite significant backlash from the MSM and anti-hunting groups. There is also strong evidence showing that controlled hunting of elephants contributes significantly to conservation and brings benefits to rural communities.

There is no evidence that CBL contributes anything to conservation, and the ethical problems with it are well-known. Not every decision made by our organizations is due to outside pressure. Many people in the hunting fraternity have a serious problem with practices like CBL shooting on ethical grounds, and we also recognize that it doesn't do us any favors in terms of public relations.

J. Ogilvie: I do NOT support CBL hunting and it holds no interest for me. It has become a nice “Banner Headline” for those that want to end Hunting in Africa but it is Not the only Headline — just the “best headline” for RIGHT NOW. If you (the public) keeps ”bowing & begging” to enjoy historical recreational privileges and continue playing defense — apologizing & appeasing - you are going to Lose more then just CBL Hunting. Don’t fall for the “jab” because the KO Punch is coming… You are barely holding on to your ability to hunt with firearms, as are many in other Countries —- look how fast severe restrictions were put into place. I think we are at risk in the U.S. Also and the restrictions will come in small but steady increments and once lost - never gotten back. Be careful surrendering, it can be interpreted as weakness and encourage further encroachment on your hobbies.

 

[HankBuck]

HankBuck, J Ogilvie is 100% correct.

You won’t see the ban reversed, it wasn’t really about CBL lions, rather it was an easy win for anti-hunting campaigners. The point being that the CBL element made it impossible to deflect. Note that the ban also included Leopard, which showed that the CBL was a Trojan horse.

Sometimes we need to clean up our own act before we can defend the rest. Kind of like people who like to take a head and leave the rest in the US. They exist in microscopic number, but make it harder for everyone else.

Excessexpress: We’re gonna disagree on this one, even though I think we have the same basic hunting values. You are getting “punched” in a dark room and have No idea where the punches are really coming from….there is more then one assailant

 

[HankBuck]

I am not interested in hunting CBL lion. WIld lion I cannot afford. But also I am not for immediate dismissal of CBL farming.

In present point of time, it can be argued that CBL hunting in present form does not have conservation value. But as someone said, it is a form of farming with specific way of harvesting.
It does reduce poaching pressure for lion parts market in China, in my opinion.

In case CBL practice is banned, there will no longer be CBL lions.

But lets look at the future.
Wild lion population is reducing, now at 23.000 in the wild.

What if the lion becomes extint in the wild, in 50 or 100 years from now?
The history will record that we euthanized up to 12.000 CBL lions, basically because there was no more financial incentive for this practice. Neither this, nor such future will mark our "brightest hour".

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/17/world/captive-breeding-species-cte-scn-spc-intl/index.html

Ethics.
Apex predator hunting in the fence. Can such predator be sustainable in fence? (like plains game?)

In the wild, a lion's territory can range from 20 to 400 square miles (50 to 1,000 square kilometers), depending on the availability of prey and water. Source:

The African Lion: King of the African Bush

African lions have been admired throughout history as symbols of strength and bravery. We've curated all the facts about these big cats...

africanbushcamps.com

Average game farm size in South Africa:

View attachment 598020

Definitely, cannot be described as ethical, they cannot have their natural range within the average fence.

What in my opinion should be done is to make African international program for reintroduction of the lions in the wild, in appropriate areas of its former natural range, with incentive for farmers. This is the only ethical solution.
But I dont see public dialogue about this matter anywhere. This is where we fail

Mark-Hunter, very interesting information and one of the best posted , so far, on this topic — thanks

 

[HankBuck]

That's not correct. It was specifically because of CBL shooting that lion imports to Australia were banned. This is from the Australian Government website explaining why they banned imports:


In other words, it was explicitly due to concerns over CBL shooting that lion imports were banned. You may not like that they banned all lion imports (I certainly don't), but the CBL industry is what caused it to happen. Countries that allow ethical, sustainable hunting of wild lions ultimately lost out due to the CBL industry.

As for the other examples you cited (elephant, Zebra, etc.) you can't compare them to CBL shooting. SCI, DSC and other organizations have been staunch supporters of ethical, sustainable elephant hunting, despite significant backlash from the MSM and anti-hunting groups. There is also strong evidence showing that controlled hunting of elephants contributes significantly to conservation and brings benefits to rural communities.

There is no evidence that CBL contributes anything to conservation, and the ethical problems with it are well-known. Not every decision made by our organizations is due to outside pressure. Many people in the hunting fraternity have a serious problem with practices like CBL shooting on ethical grounds, and we also recognize that it doesn't do us any favors in terms of public relations.

J.. By the way — I agree with some of your points and they are well stated ie: CBL contributes nothing towards conservation AND that many Hunters have a problem with the ethics of it.
Where we differ is that I believe this was just the most convenient door for Anti’s to walk thru and get a foot hold — they will now move on to “another door” —-Knock Knock !

 

[revturbo9967]

J.. By the way — I agree with some of your points and they are well stated ie: CBL contributes nothing towards conservation AND that many Hunters have a problem with the ethics of it.
Where we differ is that I believe this was just the most convenient door for Anti’s to walk thru and get a foot hold — they will now move on to “another door” —-Knock Knock !

If the practice never existed, would they have been able to get through a different door so easily?

 

[Philip Glass]

Article did not say anything about their CCP masters demand for bones.

So if CBL is all gone then will we see poaching of wild lions for their bones? The Chinese always get what they want.

 

[Philip Glass]

In

I’m sure your post will get lots of likes from the pro-CBL crowd, but you trying to make it seem that lions are living wild on game ranches and cattle farms in South Africa when they are not. CBL lion farmers will be the only real losers and the outfitters that base their businesses on CBL shooting. The 3500 wild lions in South Africa are already limited to just Kruger and large game reserves. There is no connection between self sustaining wild or wild managed lion populations and CBL. CBL lions are raised as farm animals and released on certain game farms 7 days (maybe I’ll believe 30) before they are killed to minimize any damage they can cause. They are not used to create self sustaining populations or supplement wild lions because there is more money to be made and less risk with the CBL farming model. CBL lions are simply farm animals with a unique harvesting method sold as a hunt.

Incorrect. CBL have been used to restart wild populations. I don't disagree with the rest And it is the same as buff, sable, kudu, etc on breeding farms.

 

[Philip Glass]

So what is going to happen to those lions? They just going to kill them all then? Or are they going to release some?

Killed for their bones for the most part.

 

[HankBuck]

If the practice never existed, would they have been able to get through a different door so easily?

revturbo9967: Good point and maybe Not “as easily” because the public supported this ban enthusiastically == raised/donated lots of money, Politicians saw opportunity to win “votes”. But some of the $$ raised is used to fight other battles because the “War” never ends. In business, I represented companies that were protested by PeTA - they wanted an end to using “Fur” trim on some clothing - we complied, then later they protested “leather” - we gave in again. A few years later they went after “wool” (and why Not since they Won twice before?). I believe there is a similar strategy used against hunting - fight the most winnable battles first — then keep pushing towards your goal. It is a strategy that has proven effective And there is No easy defense against it. I don’t have the answers but I have seen what DOSEN’T Work.

 

[HankBuck]

That's not correct. It was specifically because of CBL shooting that lion imports to Australia were banned. This is from the Australian Government website explaining why they banned imports:


In other words, it was explicitly due to concerns over CBL shooting that lion imports were banned. You may not like that they banned all lion imports (I certainly don't), but the CBL industry is what caused it to happen. Countries that allow ethical, sustainable hunting of wild lions ultimately lost out due to the CBL industry.

As for the other examples you cited (elephant, Zebra, etc.) you can't compare them to CBL shooting. SCI, DSC and other organizations have been staunch supporters of ethical, sustainable elephant hunting, despite significant backlash from the MSM and anti-hunting groups. There is also strong evidence showing that controlled hunting of elephants contributes significantly to conservation and brings benefits to rural communities.

There is no evidence that CBL contributes anything to conservation, and the ethical problems with it are well-known. Not every decision made by our organizations is due to outside pressure. Many people in the hunting fraternity have a serious problem with practices like CBL shooting on ethical grounds, and we also recognize that it doesn't do us any favors in terms of public relations.

J.Ogilvie: the best “evidence” that CBL was just an “excuse” to Ban ALL Lion Hunting is the end result —- ALL Lion Imports are Now banned ! (Not just CBL). Do you think that a complete and immediate end to CBL will “bring back” Lion imports? That’s what “should” happen if the only real concern was CBL lions and CBL lion hunting? CBL was just the “tool” used to achieve the real end game - ban Lion hunting…..then move on to the next target. I should concede that you might be right — without CBL being such an attractive headline “maybe” the Lion import ban would not have been implemented (at least not this soon). I don’t know, these are only my opinions.

 

[PARA45]

 

[Doubleplay]

Why the Worlds biggest pro hunting organizations like SCI, DSC, CIC with thousands of members and millions of dollars are against and banned CBL?
I guess they must be stupid not to see the damage it'll do to the future of hunting overall..

 

[J.Ogilvie]

J.Ogilvie: the best “evidence” that CBL was just an “excuse” to Ban ALL Lion Hunting is the end result —- ALL Lion Imports are Now banned ! (Not just CBL). Do you think that a complete and immediate end to CBL will “bring back” Lion imports? That’s what “should” happen if the only real concern was CBL lions and CBL lion hunting? CBL was just the “tool” used to achieve the real end game - ban Lion hunting…..then move on to the next target. I should concede that you might be right — without CBL being such an attractive headline “maybe” the Lion import ban would not have been implemented (at least not this soon). I don’t know, these are only my opinions.

You pretty much answered your own question.

It's a given that anti-hunters used the CBL industry as a convenient excuse for the banning of all lion imports. However, before the Australian public and politicians became aware of the CBL industry, lion hunting just wasn't something that the Australian public or government cared about that much. Once people in Australia became aware of the CBL industry, it became a big issue that politicians saw as a vote winner. If CBL shooting did not exist, there is a distinct possibility that the calls for an import ban would not have succeeded, as lion hunting would have remained a fringe issue with little political capital.

To answer your question about the possibility of the import ban being lifted now that it seems the CBL industry is on the way out, it's difficult to say. The problem is that (at least in the near future) any time a pro-hunting organization or the IUCN petitions the Australian Government to lift the ban on lion imports, politicians will be hesitant to act. This is because they (along with a large segment of the general public) now associate all lion hunting with the CBL industry. This is unfair, but it is the way it is. It's going to take time to educate our political class about the difference between wild lion hunting and CBL shooting.

The moral of the story is that the hunting industry should self-regulate, and we shouldn't be afraid to call out unethical behavior when we see it. We have a hard enough time as it is fighting attacks on our hunting freedoms without supplying our detractors with ammunition to use against us. Like Doubleplay said above, there is a reason why almost no reputable hunting organization wants anything to do with the CBL industry.

 

[375Fox]

View attachment 598064

More like went on one CBL shoot and now an expert. Have you read the SAPA guidelines? Have you visited a lion farm? Read the positions of DSC/SCI/CIC? Have you watched the documentary blood lions or read some of the National Geographic material? Or are you shielding yourselves from what you don’t want to see? Quite a bit more behind the scenes than a tracking experience.

 

[375Fox]

In

Incorrect. CBL have been used to restart wild populations. I don't disagree with the rest And it is the same as buff, sable, kudu, etc on breeding farms.

I’d like to hear an example. I know of none. It’s often incorrectly stated that CBL lions were used to restore lions to Mozambique delta. That’s incorrect, it’s written and discussed in podcasts with Ivan carter and mark Haldane that no CBL lions were used and only wild managed lions from big reserves in south Africa were used for the effort.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

CBL: Yes or No?

Recent threads have peaked my curiosity on the opinions of AH members on this topic so I’m starting this simple poll. I believe I have it set up to ensure the anonymity of voters and I will request that the mods lock the thread and delete any and all comments that may occur until it is locked...

www.africahunting.com

 

[PARA45]

More like went on one CBL shoot and now an expert. Have you read the SAPA guidelines? Have you visited a lion farm? Read the positions of DSC/SCI/CIC? Have you watched the documentary blood lions or read some of the National Geographic material? Or are you shielding yourselves from what you don’t want to see? Quite a bit more behind the scenes than a tracking experience.

I was not going to lower my standards and answer your insulting posts but decided against my better judgment. First and foremost, I've never claimed to be an expert on anything. You on the other hand seemed to have an "answer & the right answer" to just about anything being posted here even from South African. What I've been saying all along is to respect to be respected. If you don't like that type of hunting (oops sorry shooting for you, oh and more on this) then leave it alone. My choice not yours. I'm sure you'll be happy when ARs (sporting rifles) are banned from hunting too.

To answer your questions.

1. No I have not visited any of them, and never claimed that I did. Now my question to you, is how many have you visited? You have any proofs? Oh, and don't post pictures from the internet. Show me proof that you took those pictures. How many farms where CBL is practiced have you visited?

2. I'm no expert, and I've never claimed to be. What makes you an expert on the subject? Oh wait, you read everything from SAPA guidelines, and DSC/SCI/CIC, NSA, FBI, JOB. Got it. Ask the dentist from Minneapolis who shot a wild lion how much support he received from SCI, or from some on this forum. Where is all your evidence, where are all your pictures of the places you've visited showing everything you seem to be have knowledge of?

3. Tracking experience. You know, I at least have the decency of not insulting others on their practices. When was the last time you actually did any hunting in which you tracked the animal yourself? Mr. Hunter (you), you've participated in a tracking experience too. If the PH in front of you doesn't tell you to shoot, you can't shoot. And if the black tracker in front of the PH doesn't know where he is going, you my friend don't know either. So, when the PH tells you to shoot, you shoot. You are also a shooter not a hunter. So quit patting yourself on the back and claiming that you are this great hunter, when in reality you are just a shooter who participated on a tracking experience like the rest of us.

4. It seems like you are the only one with an opinion that matters. Who died and made you king of South Africa, and who do you think you are to tell the South Africans how to run their country and what to do in their country. Mind your own business, and let the Africans deal with their issues. If you don't like their practices, you have a choice and don't go there. Simple! Did you read 20,000 Elephants to Germany? You want to read it, you may end up learning something.

5. Your hypocrisy has boundaries. You claim to have this passion (more like being a fanatic) against CBL, and you argue every time CBL is mentioned. I believe you have notification when the three letters pop up, you get an alert on your phone. But you don't say a word about the deer farming in the US, where you can go and purchase a deer with antlers out of this world, and you pay by the inches. You are taken to this wild area (sarcasm) and shoot this deer from an elevated platform. Or the Bison "hunting" farms where you go into a pasture, and you shoot the only Bison within miles. Oh, but that's ok? The pot calling the kettle black!

One final note. You seem to be an expert on everything, and you seem to get off on insulting people when things do not go your way. You even called out @IvW. I'm sure he is more of a hunter with more experience than you'll ever dream of having. Oh, and he is not a shooter like you are. For someone as vocal as you are, you seem to like hiding behind the keyboard and blocking your face from your pictures. I wonder what are you afraid of? Grow up and stop staying at the Holiday Inn Express. You can't be an expert by staying there all the time. Oh, and the ignore button is a beautiful thing. Have a wonderful day!

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Hey Oscar...

Rob Schneider Yelling “You Can Do It” (The Waterboy) | Gifrific

A townie (Rob Schneider) yells "you can do it" during a scene from the 1998 film The Waterboy.

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