CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

[375Fox]

I was not going to lower my standards and answer your insulting posts but decided against my better judgment. First and foremost, I've never claimed to be an expert on anything. You on the other hand seemed to have an "answer & the right answer" to just about anything being posted here even from South African. What I've been saying all along is to respect to be respected. If you don't like that type of hunting (oops sorry shooting for you, oh and more on this) then leave it alone. My choice not yours. I'm sure you'll be happy when ARs (sporting rifles) are banned from hunting too.

To answer your questions.

1. No I have not visited any of them, and never claimed that I did. Now my question to you, is how many have you visited? You have any proofs? Oh, and don't post pictures from the internet. Show me proof that you took those pictures. How many farms where CBL is practiced have you visited?

2. I'm no expert, and I've never claimed to be. What makes you an expert on the subject? Oh wait, you read everything from SAPA guidelines, and DSC/SCI/CIC, NSA, FBI, JOB. Got it. Ask the dentist from Minneapolis who shot a wild lion how much support he received from SCI, or from some on this forum. Where is all your evidence, where are all your pictures of the places you've visited showing everything you seem to be have knowledge of?

3. Tracking experience. You know, I at least have the decency of not insulting others on their practices. When was the last time you actually did any hunting in which you tracked the animal yourself? Mr. Hunter (you), you've participated in a tracking experience too. If the PH in front of you doesn't tell you to shoot, you can't shoot. And if the black tracker in front of the PH doesn't know where he is going, you my friend don't know either. So, when the PH tells you to shoot, you shoot. You are also a shooter not a hunter. So quit patting yourself on the back and claiming that you are this great hunter, when in reality you are just a shooter who participated on a tracking experience like the rest of us.

4. It seems like you are the only one with an opinion that matters. Who died and made you king of South Africa, and who do you think you are to tell the South Africans how to run their country and what to do in their country. Mind your own business, and let the Africans deal with their issues. If you don't like their practices, you have a choice and don't go there. Simple! Did you read 20,000 Elephants to Germany? You want to read it, you may end up learning something.

5. Your hypocrisy has boundaries. You claim to have this passion (more like being a fanatic) against CBL, and you argue every time CBL is mentioned. I believe you have notification when the three letters pop up, you get an alert on your phone. But you don't say a word about the deer farming in the US, where you can go and purchase a deer with antlers out of this world, and you pay by the inches. You are taken to this wild area (sarcasm) and shoot this deer from an elevated platform. Or the Bison "hunting" farms where you go into a pasture, and you shoot the only Bison within miles. Oh, but that's ok? The pot calling the kettle black!

One final note. You seem to be an expert on everything, and you seem to get off on insulting people when things do not go your way. You even called out @IvW. I'm sure he is more of a hunter with more experience than you'll ever dream of having. Oh, and he is not a shooter like you are. For someone as vocal as you are, you seem to like hiding behind the keyboard and blocking your face from your pictures. I wonder what are you afraid of? Grow up and stop staying at the Holiday Inn Express. You can't be an expert by staying there all the time. Oh, and the ignore button is a beautiful thing. Have a wonderful day!

You lowered your standards when you posted the insulting meme against the anti-CBL side.

Your specific questions.
1. I have visited no farms where CBL is practiced. I really don’t care if it’s 1000 acres or 100,000. They are raised as farm animals and released a short time prior to your shoot. SAPA has YouTube videos of how they are raised. I don’t expect an invitation to visit a lion breeding farm to show my own photos.
2. I have read all the resources I can find on CBL. I did it so I could intelligently respond to some of the false facts that get put out there by pro-CBL crowd to support their cause. The pro-CBL crowd operates primarily on emotion. A few do present some logical arguments, but It’s clear to me when these threads come up that the pro-CBL crowd has not read any of the resources available. The legal bone trade is the only potential positive aspect I see to the CBL industry.
3. I’m not insulting your tracking experience. I simply don’t agree with the excuse that it covers up how the lions arrived there and the controversy they cause.
4. The South Africans can deal with their own matters without criticism when it doesn’t affect hunting outside their borders. South African breeders combine cub petting and lion experiences, the bone trade, and lion shooting into the CBL industry. They’ve made it an international business. Now it receives international condemnation. It is South Africa banning the practice.
5. I don’t support farm raised deer hunting. You’ve seen no posts of me supporting it and I have zero interest in participating. However, it does not cause the damage CBL causes so I’ll overlook it. I unknowingly shot put and take sable and that is now part of my objection to all put and take hunting. Hypocrisy to me though is continually saying we need to stand together as hunters but then saying you know more than all major hunting organizations that are against the practice.

I do make it a point to bring facts to this argument. That’s why I reference the sources I do. Those facts unfortunately devalue your trophy. I write quite extensively about my hunts and where I’ve hunted. I don’t show my face on a fully public forum, but I am quite open about my hunting especially by PM or phone call if you’d like to talk or at a future DSC show. IvW I do not believe to be who he presents himself as but I’ll never know. The ignore button is for individuals who don’t want to educate themselves both on what they support or on what they are against. I have lost respect for quite a few over this debate, but I’ll continue reading their posts to educate myself.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I understand there are some pretty unsavory breeders of captive bread lions. With those are also some outfitters and PH’s who provide shooting of CBLs rather than anything that resembles a hunt. But what percentage are those bad operators compared to the good ones?

Still, some will dismiss any idea of CBL hunting as nothing more than blasphemy toward legitimate hunting, i.e. shooting fish in a barrel. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I respect their right to think differently than me. I do the same for vegans who despise all forms of hunting and consuming any animal products. I respect them for having their values, ever if I strongly disagree with those values.

Right or wrong, CBL hunting creates strong opinions. 100 years ago, with the motor cars’ introduction to East Africa, many affluent hunters started venturing there. Prince Edward of Great Britain, himself a fine hunter, became an activist against the practice of shooting game to include entire prides of lions from motor cars. Ruark later wrote of seeing big lions from motor cars, stopping and stalking on foot. Today, almost no one has an opportunity to spot and stalk a wild lion such as Ruark did. One can however do just that on a CBL hunt. That stated, my opinion is that most CBL hunts start when a fresh track is found.

Hunting is available to us only when we have access to well populated game lands. Access comes from family or friend connections, or for most of us, by how much we can afford to pay. If one has access to fine game fields, they can participate in whatever form of hunting they desire. Let’s face it, in Africa 99.9% of the time black tribesmen are the trackers, who are closely followed by the professional hunter. Then and only then are most hunters allowed to follow. The tracker is doing most of the hunt. The PH judges the wind and adjusts tactics to get us the hunters into a safe shooting position. We, the hunters must be calm and quiet as we follow the PH’s instructions. Could we be successful in African hunting without the PH or tracker? Doubtful. Could a PH be successful without their trackers? Maybe, maybe. Could the trackers be success if they had access to rifles and know how to shoot? Well, yes! So, we are but the third string players on an African hunt. Are we really hunters or just shooters?

If we have $50,000 to pay for access to sit in a blind quietly waiting for a wild lion to strike a bait, is that a better experience than one who can only afford to hunt a CBL lion on 15,000 acres? Maybe, maybe not.

What about the fact that CBL are bred to be killed? Heck, so is the beef we buy at a store. What makes a lion any better than a cow? Who decides? I shot a bison two years ago of which I very much enjoyed over a half pound of last night. The bison was also bred to be killed for food. So, what if a lion is bred to be killed for its bones and the breeder makes a profit allowing to have a stalking hunt between birth and death?

The tree huggers certainly have a field day over sensational exploitation videos of the small percentage of lion farms that remind us of how veal calves are raised. You folks ever eat veal? Does that make you feel guilty?

I don’t blame SCI and other hunting organizations for making a choice not to endorse CBL hunting. They must lobby politicians who need Bambi-lovers’ votes. They make decisions over the battles they can win. Unfortunately, if the CBL battle is lost, the anti-hunting organizations will just try to cancel the next worse thing.

I, and I think most AH members appreciate that hunters from all backgrounds, all stations in life come together to discuss aspects of hunting and learn from each other. We may have differing opinions of many topics but I hope we all can remain friends, or at least respectful toward each other.

I post of this forum under my real name. I try to be respectful to all and have nothing to hide.

Here’s my one and only to this date CBL hunt report;
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ses-hunt-with-tally-ho-hunting-safaris.71691/

 

[Flewis]

I understand there are some pretty unsavory breeders of captive bread lions. With those are also some outfitters and PH’s who provide shooting of CBLs rather than anything that resembles a hunt. But what percentage are those bad operators compared to the good ones?

Still, some will dismiss any idea of CBL hunting as nothing more than blasphemy toward legitimate hunting, i.e. shooting fish in a barrel. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I respect their right to think differently than me. I do the same for vegans who despise all forms of hunting and consuming any animal products. I respect them for having their values, ever if I strongly disagree with those values.

Right or wrong, CBL hunting creates strong opinions. 100 years ago, with the motor cars’ introduction to East Africa, many affluent hunters started venturing there. Prince Edward of Great Britain, himself a fine hunter, became an activist against the practice of shooting game to include entire prides of lions from motor cars. Ruark later wrote of seeing big lions from motor cars, stopping and stalking on foot. Today, almost no one has an opportunity to spot and stalk a wild lion such as Ruark did. One can however do just that on a CBL hunt. That stated, my opinion is that most CBL hunts start when a fresh track is found.

Hunting is available to us only when we have access to well populated game lands. Access comes from family or friend connections, or for most of us, by how much we can afford to pay. If one has access to fine game fields, they can participate in whatever form of hunting they desire. Let’s face it, in Africa 99.9% of the time black tribesmen are the trackers, who are closely followed by the professional hunter. Then and only then are most hunters allowed to follow. The tracker is doing most of the hunt. The PH judges the wind and adjusts tactics to get us the hunters into a safe shooting position. We, the hunters must be calm and quiet as we follow the PH’s instructions. Could we be successful in African hunting without the PH or tracker? Doubtful. Could a PH be successful without their trackers? Maybe, maybe. Could the trackers be success if they had access to rifles and know how to shoot? Well, yes! So, we are but the third string players on an African hunt. Are we really hunters or just shooters?

If we have $50,000 to pay for access to sit in a blind quietly waiting for a wild lion to strike a bait, is that a better experience than one who can only afford to hunt a CBL lion on 15,000 acres? Maybe, maybe not.

What about the fact that CBL are bred to be killed? Heck, so is the beef we buy at a store. What makes a lion any better than a cow? Who decides? I shot a bison two years ago of which I very much enjoyed over a half pound of last night. The bison was also bred to be killed for food. So, what if a lion is bred to be killed for its bones and the breeder makes a profit allowing to have a stalking hunt between birth and death?

The tree huggers certainly have a field day over sensational exploitation videos of the small percentage of lion farms that remind us of how veal calves are raised. You folks ever eat veal? Does that make you feel guilty?

I don’t blame SCI and other hunting organizations for making a choice not to endorse CBL hunting. They must lobby politicians who need Bambi-lovers’ votes. They make decisions over the battles they can win. Unfortunately, if the CBL battle is lost, the anti-hunting organizations will just try to cancel the next worse thing.

I, and I think most AH members appreciate that hunters from all backgrounds, all stations in life come together to discuss aspects of hunting and learn from each other. We may have differing opinions of many topics but I hope we all can remain friends, or at least respectful toward each other.

I post of this forum under my real name. I try to be respectful to all and have nothing to hide.

Here’s my one and only to this date CBL hunt report;
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ses-hunt-with-tally-ho-hunting-safaris.71691/

I have to say that was very well put. It would be great if all HUNTERS felt that way.

 

[steve white]

I should include a statement made, I believe, by Bob Brister at one time: "They radio collared some trophy deer in a high fenced game reserve. The hunters were equipped in the same manner with gps devices, so that the exact whereabouts of both the hunters and hunted could be tracked. Hunting was done by stalking. The hunters were experienced. The deer had no way to escape from the enclosed grounds, YET NO HUNTER SAW ONE, THOUGH GPS TRACKING SHOWED THAT THE HUNTERS HAD COME AS CLOSE AS 25 FEET FROM HIDING DEER WITHOUT SEEING THEM." My point is that even that kind of enclosed hunting is not shooting fish in a barrel!
And before we depart the subject, yes, I think it does make a difference whether lion are raised on 100 acres or 1000 acres of land.
They are still lions at the end of the day. No one has really found a foolproof way to tame them--ask old man Adamson, whose "born free" pet killed him. (or the young man from Austin, TX whose warthog gored him after extensive pet conditioning.)

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Doesn't really have diddle to do with the lion issue... but Mark mentions he posts under his real name. I never thought about when I chose my user name about it not saying who I was; point of fact, I felt like it did say who I was, as far as where I live and something of my history.

Soooo... Terry Fuller, aka Tundra Tiger...

That was a great post Mark. Thank you for taking the time.

 

[375Fox]

I should include a statement made, I believe, by Bob Brister at one time: "They radio collared some trophy deer in a high fenced game reserve. The hunters were equipped in the same manner with gps devices, so that the exact whereabouts of both the hunters and hunted could be tracked. Hunting was done by stalking. The hunters were experienced. The deer had no way to escape from the enclosed grounds, YET NO HUNTER SAW ONE, THOUGH GPS TRACKING SHOWED THAT THE HUNTERS HAD COME AS CLOSE AS 25 FEET FROM HIDING DEER WITHOUT SEEING THEM." My point is that even that kind of enclosed hunting is not shooting fish in a barrel!
And before we depart the subject, yes, I think it does make a difference whether lion are raised on 100 acres or 1000 acres of land.
They are still lions at the end of the day. No one has really found a foolproof way to tame them--ask old man Adamson, whose "born free" pet killed him. (or the young man from Austin, TX whose warthog gored him after extensive pet conditioning.)

CBL shooting is 99.9% successful. The lions are only released on to properties where the success rate is nearly guaranteed.

Also, I don’t refer to it as CBL shooting because I think it’s shooting fish in a barrel. I refer to it as CBL shooting because I want a separation between farming and hunting and won’t give it credibility by calling it hunting. If it was called farming or harvesting instead of hunting, I really wouldn’t care about CBL, but calling it hunting and making it a part of the hunting industry is damaging to hunting long term.

 

[HankBuck]

I should include a statement made, I believe, by Bob Brister at one time: "They radio collared some trophy deer in a high fenced game reserve. The hunters were equipped in the same manner with gps devices, so that the exact whereabouts of both the hunters and hunted could be tracked. Hunting was done by stalking. The hunters were experienced. The deer had no way to escape from the enclosed grounds, YET NO HUNTER SAW ONE, THOUGH GPS TRACKING SHOWED THAT THE HUNTERS HAD COME AS CLOSE AS 25 FEET FROM HIDING DEER WITHOUT SEEING THEM." My point is that even that kind of enclosed hunting is not shooting fish in a barrel!
And before we depart the subject, yes, I think it does make a difference whether lion are raised on 100 acres or 1000 acres of land.
They are still lions at the end of the day. No one has really found a foolproof way to tame them--ask old man Adamson, whose "born free" pet killed him. (or the young man from Austin, TX whose warthog gored him after extensive pet conditioning.)

Steve,I read that “study” many years ago (30+?) about deer hunted in a small fenced in area…- and also a comment more recently in a brochure attributed to outdoor writer Larry Washan - that fenced in deer at “The Sanctuary” in MI were “some of the wariest deer he’s ever hunted” etc.. I’m more then skeptical, i just don’’t believe either. Maybe I’m wrong and have trophy Bucks in my fenced in yard, or Elk in my bedroom? —— even though I’ve never seen them (or smelled them !!). I have No interest in hunting anything in a fence but it doesn’t bother me if others enjoy hunting that way. I do not believe any hunter needs me to “approve” of how they hunt — that is their responsibility.

 

[375Fox]

Doesn't really have diddle to do with the lion issue... but Mark mentions he posts under his real name. I never thought about when I chose my user name about it not saying who I was; point of fact, I felt like it did say who I was, as far as where I live and something of my history.

Soooo... Terry Fuller, aka Tundra Tiger...

That was a great post Mark. Thank you for taking the time.

You might consider occasionally checking the “members online” section and see what is getting looked at and by what. Facebook and Instagram are in someways a safer platform than AH because they are more restricted and not as accessible by a google search. If you have nothing to lose and many of you are 50+ or retired, go for it, but the argument about lack of credibility for staying anonymous on the public side of this forum is a foolish argument. Personal information is removed from public posts for their protection. A hunter doesn’t own the information they post here or their photos once they do. Some individuals should be thinking about 10 or 20 years from now instead of just today on both public information they choose to post and CBL.

 

[Sarg]

I should include a statement made, I believe, by Bob Brister at one time: "They radio collared some trophy deer in a high fenced game reserve. The hunters were equipped in the same manner with gps devices, so that the exact whereabouts of both the hunters and hunted could be tracked. Hunting was done by stalking. The hunters were experienced. The deer had no way to escape from the enclosed grounds, YET NO HUNTER SAW ONE, THOUGH GPS TRACKING SHOWED THAT THE HUNTERS HAD COME AS CLOSE AS 25 FEET FROM HIDING DEER WITHOUT SEEING THEM." My point is that even that kind of enclosed hunting is not shooting fish in a barrel!
And before we depart the subject, yes, I think it does make a difference whether lion are raised on 100 acres or 1000 acres of land.
They are still lions at the end of the day. No one has really found a foolproof way to tame them--ask old man Adamson, whose "born free" pet killed him. (or the young man from Austin, TX whose warthog gored him after extensive pet conditioning.)

Sorry Old George Adamson was killed by poachers, I was in Kenya at the time & it was big news, it stated he drove his vehicle at them to save some others & was shot !

He was a real bloke old George & 83yrs old at that time !

Joy Adamson was also killed by Africa's most dangerous animal (other than a Mosquito) a human, its a wild place !

I thought it was a Land Rover & bugger me it was !

 

[LivingTheDream]

You might consider occasionally checking the “members online” section and see what is getting looked at and by what. Facebook and Instagram are in someways a safer platform than AH because they are more restricted and not as accessible by a google search. If you have nothing to lose and many of you are 50+ or retired, go for it, but the argument about lack of credibility for staying anonymous on the public side of this forum is a foolish argument. Personal information is removed from public posts for their protection. A hunter doesn’t own the information they post here or their photos once they do. Some individuals should be thinking about 10 or 20 years from now instead of just today on both public information they choose to post and CBL.

I'll bring a little light hearted nature to this thread. I was part of a non profit pro conservation organization, I was exchanging emails with a member and they asked if I was LivingTheDream on AH. I said yes and asked what their handle was, they didn't reply...My only take away was that my online personality must be an assh*le.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

You might consider occasionally checking the “members online” section and see what is getting looked at and by what. Facebook and Instagram are in someways a safer platform than AH because they are more restricted and not as accessible by a google search. If you have nothing to lose and many of you are 50+ or retired, go for it, but the argument about lack of credibility for staying anonymous on the public side of this forum is a foolish argument. Personal information is removed from public posts for their protection. A hunter doesn’t own the information they post here or their photos once they do. Some individuals should be thinking about 10 or 20 years from now instead of just today on both public information they choose to post and CBL.

Duly noted. And thank you, sincere. It's not that I don't consider things. But while I feel 23 (truly!) my birth certificate says I am approaching 60. I've never been shy. I don't see any reason to start now.

 

[mark-hunter]

Today is what it is, but I always try to look at the future.

Success rate 99.9%.
Same stands for plains game hunting, basic packages, in or out of the fence. 99.9% success.

Non Guaranteed hunts? Bongo, leopard, wild lion, lde, other... free range.
But majority of commercial hunts are on 99.9% rate.
Not all hunters are financially ready, or capable to finance multiple costly safaris with say 30% success rate.

Game ranching in general, created what is known to be Namibia and South Africa conservation success.
Namibia perhaps found a better balance.

And I am sure that in the future, with present trend of habitat loss, urbanization, encroachment, the future of hunting (and species conservation) will be more and more dependent of game ranching (aka fence).

 

[Frederik]

With all being said and done I am glad I could partake in two CBL hunts, will I do it again if I have the chance and means to do it, for sure!

I do not look at the track in that sand and say how cute a big pussy cat has walked here.
We followed the tracks and were all on high alert as that pussy cat can be around any corner under any bush just staring at us with those piercing yellow eyes.
Tame or being used to human precesence, lions are the top predator and you can be its prey?
Where lions are not regurlaly hunted or chased and harrased from locals lions have no fear of man.

We tracked the lioness and we even struggled to find fresh tracks the previous days but the lions had a choice to keep running away or wait for us hiding behind some very slim branches and in the shade. If you were not part of the group tracking you would have never seen that lioness.

I made a calculated shot at close range and followed with two more and it was done.
It was emotional for me and I am very glad I could do it.

For more info on the hunt you can watch the whole hunt on YouTube.

Above is my opinion and my experience I do not have a blindfold over my eyes and understand where the lions came from. There was 3 roaming the property one more lioness and one male.

Did I enjoy the experience being face to face with a lion and staring into its eyes, yes?
Could the lioness have charged or ran away again, yes?
Was the experience more or less than was anticipated? More for sure.

I am not going to reply further on this thread about my hunts with CBL but you are more than welcome to private message me about it.

My flatskin and skulls is proudly displayed in my home and I have nothing to hide and am glad I could partake in the experience that I will remember foundly for the rest of my life.

My only wish is that these CBL animals needed to be regulated and run properly from the start and the bad publicity with rotten outfits would have been cleaned up or never happened.

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

 

[Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS]

I have posted various times about how captive bred lions have been rewilded on various occasions

This is just to put facts straight

I wont engage further on this topic

 

[mark-hunter]

I'll bring a little light hearted nature to this thread. I was part of a non profit pro conservation organization, I was exchanging emails with a member and they asked if I was LivingTheDream on AH. I said yes and asked what their handle was, they didn't reply...My only take away was that my online personality must be an assh*le.

I wonder how did they get the idea?

 

[mark-hunter]

This video, shows exactly the points I raised earlier.
What to do with 8-1200 lions if they ban the CBL practice? Euthanatize?
Rewilding and reintroduction is possible.
Etc

Thanks for posting, tally Ho hunting safaris, Stuart!

 

[HankBuck]

With all being said and done I am glad I could partake in two CBL hunts, will I do it again if I have the chance and means to do it, for sure!

I do not look at the track in that sand and say how cute a big pussy cat has walked here.
We followed the tracks and were all on high alert as that pussy cat can be around any corner under any bush just staring at us with those piercing yellow eyes.
Tame or being used to human precesence, lions are the top predator and you can be its prey?
Where lions are not regurlaly hunted or chased and harrased from locals lions have no fear of man.

We tracked the lioness and we even struggled to find fresh tracks the previous days but the lions had a choice to keep running away or wait for us hiding behind some very slim branches and in the shade. If you were not part of the group tracking you would have never seen that lioness.

I made a calculated shot at close range and followed with two more and it was done.
It was emotional for me and I am very glad I could do it.

For more info on the hunt you can watch the whole hunt on YouTube.

Above is my opinion and my experience I do not have a blindfold over my eyes and understand where the lions came from. There was 3 roaming the property one more lioness and one male.

Did I enjoy the experience being face to face with a lion and staring into its eyes, yes?
Could the lioness have charged or ran away again, yes?
Was the experience more or less than was anticipated? More for sure.

I am not going to reply further on this thread about my hunts with CBL but you are more than welcome to private message me about it.

My flatskin and skulls is proudly displayed in my home and I have nothing to hide and am glad I could partake in the experience that I will remember foundly for the rest of my life.

My only wish is that these CBL animals needed to be regulated and run properly from the start and the bad publicity with rotten outfits would have been cleaned up or never happened.

Frederick: I watched the video - only until the car pulled up to the “gate & fence”, that is where I lose interest. However, You enjoyed your hunt, knew what to expect, were not disappointed, followed the laws, and also did not remove any wild lions from the ecosystem.

 

[Philip Glass]

I’d like to hear an example. I know of none. It’s often incorrectly stated that CBL lions were used to restore lions to Mozambique delta. That’s incorrect, it’s written and discussed in podcasts with Ivan carter and mark Haldane that no CBL lions were used and only wild managed lions from big reserves in south Africa were used for the effort.

Where do you think the lions came from that are now what are termed "wild managed lions" on private land in RSA?
It matters not whether you release penned lions or truly wild lions to a new area. Most of them will be ripped limb from limb by any resident lions. You need volume and several translocations if you want to reintroduce lions successfully. This is but one reason CBL are good and have conservation value.
Yall act like Mark Haldane is the only person to ever reintroduce lions.

 

[Philip Glass]

More like went on one CBL shoot and now an expert. Have you read the SAPA guidelines? Have you visited a lion farm? Read the positions of DSC/SCI/CIC? Have you watched the documentary blood lions or read some of the National Geographic material? Or are you shielding yourselves from what you don’t want to see? Quite a bit more behind the scenes than a tracking experience.

People like you have brought us to where we are now. Our organizations caved to people like you, now not only CBL will be gone but the Rhino will once and for all be relegated to zoos as it is part of this ban!