CBL Debate Over, CBL Loses

[Certus]

This video, shows exactly the points I raised earlier.
What to do with 8-1200 lions if they ban the CBL practice? Euthanatize?
Rewilding and reintroduction is possible.
Etc

Thanks for posting, tally Ho hunting safaris, Stuart!

I don’t think people would like lions reintroduced to a lot of places - look at the complaints about the reintroduction of wolves in places.

 

[375Fox]

Where do you think the lions came from that are now what are termed "wild managed lions" on private land in RSA?
It matters not whether you release penned lions or truly wild lions to a new area. Most of them will be ripped limb from limb by any resident lions. You need volume and several translocations if you want to reintroduce lions successfully. This is but one reason CBL are good and have conservation value.
Yall act like Mark Haldane is the only person to ever reintroduce lions.

I can’t seem to quit responding because you guys modify facts in order to support your cause. The video posted by Tally-Ho says all wild managed populations in 60-65 reserves originated from national parks. He also says in the video that no lions have been bred for conservation (which I interpret to mean creating wild populations) but it’s a bonus to having CBL lions because he believes it is possible. The information is out there if someone wants to look. I’m shocked at how many hunters defending this practice won’t at least educate themselves with the resources that are available to them.

 

[375Fox]

People like you have brought us to where we are now. Our organizations caved to people like you, now not only CBL will be gone but the Rhino will once and for all be relegated to zoos as it is part of this ban!

Again with misinformation. The discussion of rhinos is concerning but you have no way to predict what will happen with rhinos because of this, if anything. I highly question whether South Africa will ever even ban CBL. However, you blame people like me. I blame the CBL issue on hunters that have cheered this on based strictly on affordability without a concern for any repercussions in the future.

 

[saswart]

maybe read this for greater insight... for both pro CBL and anti CBL

https://www.mahohboh.org/controvers...unting-of-captive-bred-lions-in-south-africa/

Why the TGA undertook the task of finding out the “truth” - The True Green Alliance

Part of the TGA’s vision is to create a society that is properly informed about the principles and practices of wildlife management and our purpose in investigating the Captive Breeding of Lions Industry (CBL) was to further that purpose. “Something” recently exploded the much respected...

www.mahohboh.org

https://natshoot.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/news/2019/2019-12-10%20-Open%20Letter%20to%20President%20Captive%20Breeding%20of%20Lions_Parliament_2019.pdf

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

People like you have brought us to where we are now. Our organizations caved to people like you, now not only CBL will be gone but the Rhino will once and for all be relegated to zoos as it is part of this ban!

One could argue that if people like you hadn’t supported CBL in the first place it would’ve gone away and the other side wouldn’t have had an “in” on other issues to begin with. Stop trying to pass the buck.

 

[mark-hunter]

I don’t think people would like lions reintroduced to a lot of places - look at the complaints about the reintroduction of wolves in places.

Of course. I wouldn't like lion roaming my backyard either.
National Governments should determine protected areas, national parks and similar, and make such projects. Hunting concessions and outfitters can make such programs, as it was done in Mozambique, etc

 

[375Fox]

Of course. I wouldn't like lion roaming my backyard either.
National Governments should determine protected areas, national parks and similar, and make such projects. Hunting concessions and outfitters can make such programs, as it was done in Mozambique, etc

It’s done this way in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania, Cameroon, northern Namibia, Botswana as well. The areas that can hold lions mostly already do. The ones that don’t are because of human encroachment on those areas. Unfortunately lions are out of room as the human population in Africa continues growing.

 

[Frederik]

maybe read this for greater insight... for both pro CBL and anti CBL

https://www.mahohboh.org/controvers...unting-of-captive-bred-lions-in-south-africa/

Why the TGA undertook the task of finding out the “truth” - The True Green Alliance

Part of the TGA’s vision is to create a society that is properly informed about the principles and practices of wildlife management and our purpose in investigating the Captive Breeding of Lions Industry (CBL) was to further that purpose. “Something” recently exploded the much respected...

www.mahohboh.org

https://natshoot.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/news/2019/2019-12-10%20-Open%20Letter%20to%20President%20Captive%20Breeding%20of%20Lions_Parliament_2019.pdf

Thanks Saswart,

I read the following article from the page as well and it is well written from a outsider standpoint.

https://www.mahohboh.org/blatant-untruths-nowhere-to-hide-canned-big-cat-hunting-explained-news24/

 

[mark-hunter]

It’s done this way in Zimbabwe, Zambia, Tanzania, Cameroon, northern Namibia, Botswana as well. The areas that can hold lions mostly already do. The ones that don’t are because of human encroachment on those areas. Unfortunately lions are out of room as the human population in Africa continues growing.

Attached is screenshot from IUCN red list.
red areas are lion former range.
What I see in that picture is that countries which historically had lion, do not make effort to introduce lion at least in their national parks, where there is no encroachment problem.

Here is list of national parks per country.

List of national parks in Africa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MarkB]

maybe read this for greater insight... for both pro CBL and anti CBL

https://www.mahohboh.org/controvers...unting-of-captive-bred-lions-in-south-africa/

Why the TGA undertook the task of finding out the “truth” - The True Green Alliance

Part of the TGA’s vision is to create a society that is properly informed about the principles and practices of wildlife management and our purpose in investigating the Captive Breeding of Lions Industry (CBL) was to further that purpose. “Something” recently exploded the much respected...

www.mahohboh.org

https://natshoot.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/news/2019/2019-12-10%20-Open%20Letter%20to%20President%20Captive%20Breeding%20of%20Lions_Parliament_2019.pdf

Another hot topic thread with most people views the same as all others on CBL. However I would say all posters and all hunters read every article listed above and then have a long hard look in the mirror.

Thanks for the education opportunity @saswart, now if we all read and ADHERED to what is stated this thread would be much sorter and less infuriated.

MB

 

[steve white]

maybe read this for greater insight... for both pro CBL and anti CBL

https://www.mahohboh.org/controvers...unting-of-captive-bred-lions-in-south-africa/

Why the TGA undertook the task of finding out the “truth” - The True Green Alliance

Part of the TGA’s vision is to create a society that is properly informed about the principles and practices of wildlife management and our purpose in investigating the Captive Breeding of Lions Industry (CBL) was to further that purpose. “Something” recently exploded the much respected...

www.mahohboh.org

https://natshoot.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/news/2019/2019-12-10%20-Open%20Letter%20to%20President%20Captive%20Breeding%20of%20Lions_Parliament_2019.pdf

What a GREAT, GREAT input to this discussion!!!!!!

 

[John Wasmuth]

….

 

[375Fox]

Attached is screenshot from IUCN red list.
red areas are lion former range.
What I see in that picture is that countries which historically had lion, do not make effort to introduce lion at least in their national parks, where there is no encroachment problem.

Here is list of national parks per country.

List of national parks in Africa - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 598460

I’m not sure the areas you are referring to specifically, but Most countries in Africa do not have fully functioning governments. The areas there are lions in your map all line up to major hunting concession or national parks in mostly stable countries. The encroachment into wild areas and national parks in 3rd world Africa is often severe. The governments have no money so the national parks have no funding unless an NGO took an interest. Many areas it would take much more than reintroducing lions. It will also take reintroducing their prey base. I think all wildlife in west Africa will be in trouble very soon. Cameroon is the last holdout and I think the clock is ticking unfortunately.

 

[mark-hunter]

I’m not sure the areas you are referring to specifically, but Most countries in Africa do not have fully functioning governments

This is absolute truth, and part of the problem.

Many areas it would take much more than reintroducing lions.

Of course.
Setting up or renewing damaged eco system, will require introducing apex predator just at the end of entire process.

I think all wildlife in west Africa will be in trouble very soon.

That is also true - at least I see it that way as well.
I will put it this way: I dont see any chance of achieving a "conservation success" there, as we know it like in Namibia and South Africa. And not enough efforts is made this to be done.
For whatever reason: Dysfunctional governments, military pouches, security issues with guerillas, incompetency and corruption in local governments, etc..

And exactly for this reason I still see game ranching practices as a shining example of successful conservation.

 

[IvW]

Where do you think the lions came from that are now what are termed "wild managed lions" on private land in RSA?
It matters not whether you release penned lions or truly wild lions to a new area. Most of them will be ripped limb from limb by any resident lions. You need volume and several translocations if you want to reintroduce lions successfully. This is but one reason CBL are good and have conservation value.
Yall act like Mark Haldane is the only person to ever reintroduce lions.

Yip....and I commend you for your input and there are many other private game reserves that have re introduced lion.....not only Mark.....close to him are 3 more I know of and yes populations are such that hunting these lions has also been introduced......and yes all the areas are high fenced but are very big and all of the big 5 or big 7 if you will are self sustainable.....but due to fence the anti fence hunters will condown this....sad to say the least.....shit in your own nest and sit in it is all I can say to some here...

 

[Vintageguy]

It’ll be interesting to see how long legal hunting of wild lions, enjoyed mostly by wealthy westerners, from countries that are consistently becoming bigger and bigger pia’s to African nations, survives. I see the growing anger shown by African nations towards westerners who think it is their duty to lecture them on matters most know nothing about. Also, I see a hunting community at odds with one another and all too eager to throw each other under the bus. People not wealthy enough or simply not welcomed in the club, be it safari hunting, nonresident big game hunting or whatever, are not likely to care much when that activity is threatened that of off limits to them. Simply human nature and constantly inserting yourself and your opinions into someone else’s business usually leads to you not being welcomed. All the antis need to do is chip away enough at African hunting to reduce opportunities and thereby hunter numbers and thereby hunter revenue that the people there decide it is no longer worth putting up with the west’s crap for what it brings in and it’ll be over.
Seriously, what do you think trophy bans are about? Reducing hunter numbers and revenue and their influence and voice in the process. How many potential first timers you think have passed on a safari or species because they can’t bring it back? If 800 lions were taken in a year, from the article link above, at average say of $20k per hunter total spent, that alone removed $16,000,000 worth of influence. Death by a thousand cuts and the ones with the blade don’t think any of us are ethical or worthy to be left alone. If they haven’t tried to go after what you like, just wait, they will.

 

[Paul Raley]

The issue of canned lion hunting / CBL is obviously very emotive and divisive , but as it is an argument based on each persons own perception of ethics , morality and principles it is an argument that cannot be "won" by either viewpoint as both sides believe they are right , irrespective of any of the facts , and neither side will be convinced otherwise - I am of the opinion this is the reality of the situation .
Some members have posted information from "experts" to try and prove their side of the argument , I am in no way an expert and cannot dispute or argue the scientific facts , my opinion is based on what I believe to be right or wrong , but to give a more balanced view to the members that may be interested there is another expert on this topic whose name has not been mentioned ( unless I missed it ) , and that is Professor Paul Funston , an internationally recognised expert on Lions . His expert opinions and references to his work can easily be found by googling him. It might be educational for some members .

 

[mark-hunter]

It’ll be interesting to see how long legal hunting of wild lions, enjoyed mostly by wealthy westerners, from countries that are consistently becoming bigger and bigger pia’s to African nations, survives.

In several of my posts related to this subject, I mentioned when hunting is seen by public as a rich men sports, it gets under serious threat of being banned. So, yes, you made a good point. This can be compared to the history of tiger hunting.

 

[Woodcarver]

The issue of canned lion hunting / CBL is obviously very emotive and divisive , but as it is an argument based on each persons own perception of ethics , morality and principles it is an argument that cannot be "won" by either viewpoint as both sides believe they are right , irrespective of any of the facts , and neither side will be convinced otherwise - I am of the opinion this is the reality of the situation .
Some members have posted information from "experts" to try and prove their side of the argument , I am in no way an expert and cannot dispute or argue the scientific facts , my opinion is based on what I believe to be right or wrong , but to give a more balanced view to the members that may be interested there is another expert on this topic whose name has not been mentioned ( unless I missed it ) , and that is Professor Paul Funston , an internationally recognised expert on Lions . His expert opinions and references to his work can easily be found by googling him. It might be educational for some members .

The conflation of these 2 is where the basis of the disagreement stems from; those who don't differentiate between canned executions and CBL hunts vs those that do. Dr Booyens, in the video posted by Tally Ho, very clearly separates canned as not just unethical, but totally illegal. But he sees the value of captive bred lions, including the hunting of them, as well as a great number of other game species where captive breeding programs have indeed brought them back from the brink. I definitely differentiate between the two.
It seems the $100 question is how many acres/hectares of land is required to qualify as fair chase. That should be hashed out and added to the regulations. Personally, a property of 100,000+ acres of African bush would meet my definition. Another case of bigger is better. I know for some, there is no size acreage that would get them to accept a CBL as a hunt; that is a personal decision, and I'm ok with that also.

 

[mark-hunter]

As far as control of ethical practices is concerned, it is easy to be established. Each lion on the farm to be registered, and each transaction registered from farm to certified hunting outfiter. Certification of hunting outfit for CBL to be based on any of reasonable factors, such as size of property, and appropriate time of release prior to hunt as established by competent authority.

BTW Chinese have entire tiger farms, for purpose of slaughter of tigers and marketed consumption of tiger products, I see no serious international movement related to this practice.
Here is all connected to hunting, and we have a problem. It seams we have international double standards.