Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[Berettaco]

So do I keep my 270s or not?

What I find interesting is a lot of people (including me) take the cartridge journey. We start out with a hand-me-down 270 or 30-06, then work and save and read tons of articles and acquire all the wisdom we think we need to make an informed decision - well versed in ballistics, sectional density, etc… so we upgrade to a short mag, super short mag, manbun express, whatever the latest fad… because we really need that extra 200 fps... then a couple decades later we are back to hunting with our 270s, 30-06, 375 etc….
The journey is the fun part - hunt with whatever “flat shooter” you got

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Well I have to tell ya guys, my .470NE is pretty damn flat to at least 50 yards!

 

[Doug Hamilton]

So do I keep my 270s or not?

What I find interesting is a lot of people (including me) take the cartridge journey. We start out with a hand-me-down 270 or 30-06, then work and save and read tons of articles and acquire all the wisdom we think we need to make an informed decision - well versed in ballistics, sectional density, etc… so we upgrade to a short mag, super short mag, manbun express, whatever the latest fad… because we really need that extra 200 fps... then a couple decades later we are back to hunting with our 270s, 30-06, 375 etc….
The journey is the fun part - hunt with whatever “flat shooter” you got

Well said.. That's why I never get rid of a rifle. You never know when one of them in the safe is just what you need.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Well I have to tell ya guys, my .470NE is pretty damn flat to at least 50 yards!

Now that you mention it, I've noticed the same thing with my .458.

 

[crs]

Speaking of .458 calibers, my .458 DR regulation has worked so well that it has been a pleasant surprise-- at 100 yards the group is still a group!
Next to shoot at 200 yards.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Forrest,
I still use peep sights on a couple of my lever actions with good success at close range. They are big bore guns for BG and DG and proven in USA and Africa:
1886 .45-90 with African loads of 450 grain NF at 2150 fps MV. Folding tang peep and barrel sight:
1895 .405 WCF with peep sight has taken Water Buff , Cape Buff, and lots of other big game.
Also have scoped DR over Express sights in both calibers. I do not hunt DG after dark.

@crs I haven't forgotten about you. You're my out of the box thinking hero for the lever gun and BP cartridge modernization.

This post is not particularly about DG hunting. I was just stirring the pot about my willingness to shoot anything with my .458 out to 200 yards. Beyond that it's pretty much a dog and pissing away energy faster than a Tesla owner at an emergency roadside recharge. I believe most of these folks were talking about more likable rifles like the .30-06 and various whitetail calibers, but I just wanted to stir the pot.

I'm neither afraid nor ashamed of peep sights or irons, but the point I was trying to make is that there is a bit of sacrifice with lighting and certain times of day it's a disadvantage. Of late I've been working to stop an infestation of squirrels and I have one rifle that is iron sights, a scoped lever action, and soon I'll be using peep sights on a target rifle out of boredom. I notice a clear advantage in the early and late shots with using a scope. Although I do have a variable peep aperture for fine tuning to the lighting at hand.

 

[crs]

Squirrels were one of my targets when we moved to the country 20 years ago. I actually love properly prepared rabbit and squirrel meat and could tell many stories about shooting them (as could many old folks my age). Just as my grandson grabbed rifles and I headed out to the oak trees in the front yard my wife and my daughter protested that the shooting would scare the horses. So that went the same way as my planned 100 yard range . The hairy little nut eaters are playing in the front yard right now.

I do get to shoot snakes that get into the chicken nests however. Somehow that does not seem to scare the horses!

 

[F. Vaccaro]

Squirrels were one of my targets when we moved to the country 20 years ago. I actually love properly prepared rabbit and squirrel meat and could tell many stories about shooting them (as could many old folks my age). Just as my grandson grabbed rifles and I headed out to the oak trees in the front yard my wife and my daughter protested that the shooting would scare the horses. So that went the same way as my planned 100 yard range . The hairy little nut eaters are playing in the front yard right now.

I do get to shoot snakes that get into the chicken nests however. Somehow that does not seem to scare the horses!

Horses get used to gunfire quickly I’ve found. Give them a few carrots, fire a .22, repeat till you get no reaction then move up to say a .38. It’ll take less than a couple hours unless the horses are real broncs.

 

[Woodcarver]

Squirrels were one of my targets when we moved to the country 20 years ago. I actually love properly prepared rabbit and squirrel meat and could tell many stories about shooting them (as could many old folks my age). Just as my grandson grabbed rifles and I headed out to the oak trees in the front yard my wife and my daughter protested that the shooting would scare the horses. So that went the same way as my planned 100 yard range . The hairy little nut eaters are playing in the front yard right now.

I do get to shoot snakes that get into the chicken nests however. Somehow that does not seem to scare the horses!

Horses acclimate to gunfire just like dogs. One of the oldest gentlemanly pursuits was quail hunting from horseback over pointers. Follow the dogs until they point, dismount, flush and shoot. Start the horses the same way as you would a pup, 22 rifle with a little distance. Slowly working closer and larger in caliber. Have them rubbing, currying, or some other normal activity when you start. They just keep on doing it while you shoot. Won't take long before the horses could care less about the gunfire, if they even do to start.
It will actually benefit your wife and daughter in the long run, as the horses will be attuned to sudden, loud, sharp noises and do no more than look. Rodeos can be averted this way.

 

[sgt_zim]

IMO, flat = muzzle velocity plus high BC. The better these both are the less wind drift will effect the shot. And there is less dialing and figuring and more shooting.

What does the shooter have to lose?

Inside 300 yards, the real question is "what does the shooter have to gain?".

Probably almost everybody in this forum excepted, lotsa guys (maybe most) can't even shoot consistently at 300 yards, let alone at a distance where high MV and BC will make any real difference. As indicated on the chart that kicked this whole thing off, there is no *practical* difference in trajectory or energy between a 7mm RM and a 6.5x55 at 300 yards.

 

[Nevada Mike]

...As indicated on the chart that kicked this whole thing off, there is no *practical* difference in trajectory or energy between a 7mm RM and a 6.5x55 at 300 yards.

I owned and shot both these cartridges for decades. i can assure you that, in the field, in 'practical' shooting, there IS a difference. And, yes, using both cartridges I have make shots from nearly point blank to well over 300 yards. The 6.5 X 55 is a great cartridge and accurate, but the 7mm RM is accurate and more effective on longer shots. YMMV.

 

[sgt_zim]

I didn't say there wasn't a difference, I said there wasn't a practical difference at distances inside 300 yards. And there just isn't.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@crs my latest occupation has been diminishing the crow count around the home place. I'm using an old peep sighted .22 for such tasks and the shots are locked in at about 55 yards out of a tall pine tree. Of note is that my cats are not alarmed by the shots nor is my toddler who has slept through two consecutive shots taken from a gap in the French doors not too far from his bedroom. The 25" target profile barrel is to commend for this and I am beginning to believe something was lost in the world when barrels crossed under 24 inches.

 

[crs]

Looks to be a very effective combo.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Inside 300 yards, the real question is "what does the shooter have to gain?".

Probably almost everybody in this forum excepted, lotsa guys (maybe most) can't even shoot consistently at 300 yards, let alone at a distance where high MV and BC will make any real difference. As indicated on the chart that kicked this whole thing off, there is no *practical* difference in trajectory or energy between a 7mm RM and a 6.5x55 at 300 yards.

Because you believe that most shooters can't shoot well beyond 300 yards no one should be interested in cartridges that are capable of accuracy beyond that distance. Because you believe that most hunters live in flat, whitetail woods where 300 yards would be an impossibly long shot, none of them have an interest in hunting in country where 300 yards is not considered a really long shot. Because you believe that no deer will care whether or not the bullet that hit him came from a 7-08 or a 7 mm RM (okay, he won't, but an elk might) the 7-08 is a superior round because it kicks less. I shoot and hunt with both of those cslibers, along with .30-06 and .300 Win Mag. They all have their place, and sometimes flat shooting is an important consideration. I like the 7-08 for deer when I don't expect shots beyond 250 yards, but I don't carry it when I hunt mule deer or pronghorns.

So to answer your original question, no I don't think we will stop talking about "flat shooting" cartriges.

 

[ChrisG]

Well we all know that the 6.5CM was the first 6.5mm cartridge ever invented. It hits harder at 1,700 yards than a .300 win does at 25 yards and shoots as so flat that it actually curves away from gravity for a few hundred meters (real shooters/operators use meters.... not the yards that are so common among the plebeians). Also since it was the first 6.5 ever invented, it is superior to everything currently out there. It really does its best hunting in a 17.5 lb straight taper, 32" barreled match rifle with a 32x-64x75mm scope with 1/16 MOA adjustable, exposed turrets. Its so flat, and hits so hard, I have no doubt that it would knock a zebra out cold from 2,300m, where most REAL shooters would shoot them from.

I am just passing along facts here... not someone's opinion.... cold. hard. facts.

 

[ChrisG]

Also, the term "flat shooting" in the airgun world usually means "doesn't drop so much at 50 yards that you need a holdover." My FX Impact .25 is a real flat shooting gun! 34g slug at 950fps! Now that is flat!

 

[sgt_zim]

So do I keep my 270s or not?

What I find interesting is a lot of people (including me) take the cartridge journey. We start out with a hand-me-down 270 or 30-06, then work and save and read tons of articles and acquire all the wisdom we think we need to make an informed decision - well versed in ballistics, sectional density, etc… so we upgrade to a short mag, super short mag, manbun express, whatever the latest fad… because we really need that extra 200 fps... then a couple decades later we are back to hunting with our 270s, 30-06, 375 etc….
The journey is the fun part - hunt with whatever “flat shooter” you got

at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. they're all relatively flat-shooting for critters not on the other side of a canyon.

bullet selection is a bit more of a priority for me than flat-shooting, since they're all pretty flat shooting.

 

[Berettaco]

@sgt_zim
I agree - within 300 yards there isn’t a big advantage between most of the common deer/elk rifles. The 270 is one of my favorites - never really thought of it as a flat shooter, but I like the nostalgia, relatively low recoil, and easy to find ammo and components. If I am hunting where shots exceed 300 I usually grab a 300 win.
Also agree on bullet selection - most all of the premium bullets (slightly heavy for caliber) work quite well for everything I have hunted.

 

[rdog]

Well we all know that the 6.5CM was the first 6.5mm cartridge ever invented. It hits harder at 1,700 yards than a .300 win does at 25 yards and shoots as so flat that it actually curves away from gravity for a few hundred meters (real shooters/operators use meters.... not the yards that are so common among the plebeians). Also since it was the first 6.5 ever invented, it is superior to everything currently out there. It really does its best hunting in a 17.5 lb straight taper, 32" barreled match rifle with a 32x-64x75mm scope with 1/16 MOA adjustable, exposed turrets. Its so flat, and hits so hard, I have no doubt that it would knock a zebra out cold from 2,300m, where most REAL shooters would shoot them from.

I am just passing along facts here... not someone's opinion.... cold. hard. facts.

My old 6.5x55 & 260 REM are no match for the 6.5 CM the young would be snipers at the local range tell me, some of their rifles need wheels they are so heavy, an old man like me struggle to lift them , but at least they are not left wing wokes driving electric cars.