Can we please stop talking about "flat shooting" cartridges

[Doug Hamilton]

"I do agree though, till you cross the 300 yard line there is little difference in trajectory!"

And what percentage of big game is actually shot beyond 300 yards?
Shot and killed, not just shot at.

Are you kidding? Wherever you're hunting must be very flat. In the rugged country of the Western states you had better be able to.make a 300 yard shot or you will be eating a lot of tag soup. When there is a big canyon between you and the game, you can't just stalk closer. I have killed three mule deer bucks with a side hammer Jussie loader in open sage brush and rim rock country, but that meant passing up shots on much bigger bucks. Anyone that thinks a 3 to 400 yard shot is next to impossible must be a flat land, deep woofs whitetail hunter. It's a different skill set.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Using MPBR and comparing apples to apples (Nosler Partitions only), let's put this concept to bed for good. In common small bores, there is no practical difference in trajectories out to 300 yards, so PLEASE stop talking about it. It isn't even remotely interesting.

For people new to the sport, to me, the hands down winners of best cartridge selection are 7mm-08 and 6.5CM, simply due to a lack of recoil. Neither of them gives up any ground to any of the other popular hunting cartridges.

For the 270 fan bois out there, sorry, it ain't all that and a bag of donuts. It's good, but no better than any of the others.

cartridge	MV (fps)	Zero distance (MPBR for 8" target, in yards)	bullet	bullet weight (grains)	100 yard trajectory	100 yard energy	200 yard trajectory	200 yard energy	300 yard trajectory	300 yard energy
270 Winchester	3050	282	Partition	130	3.2"	2295	3.6"	1954	-1.3	1654
270 Winchester	2850	268	Partition	150	3.4"	2344	3.3"	2023	-2.5	1737
7mm-08	2800	261	Partition	140	3.4"	2087	3.1"	1779	-3.3	1507
6.5CM/6.5x55	2700	255	Partition	140	3.5"	1972	2.9"	1709	-3.9	1474
308 Win	2850	262	Partition	150	3.4"	2276	3.2"	1903	-3.2	1579
30-06	3000	275	Partition	150	3.3"	2530	3.4"	2124	-1.9	1771
7mm RM/280 AI	3000	289	Partition	150	3.5"	2596	3.9"	2241	-0.8	1925

So you're thinking that a .30-30 is just as effective at 300 yards as a 7 mm Rem Mag or a .300 Win? It isn't.

 

[akrifleman]

Are you kidding? Wherever you're hunting must be very flat. In the rugged country of the Western states you had better be able to.make a 300 yard shot or you will be eating a lot of tag soup. When there is a big canyon between you and the game, you can't just stalk closer. I have killed three mule deer bucks with a side hammer Jussie loader in open sage brush and rim rock country, but that meant passing up shots on much bigger bucks. Anyone that thinks a 3 to 400 yard shot is next to impossible must be a flat land, deep woofs whitetail hunter. It's a different skill set.

The point is, that under 300 yards the differences in drop are all but irrelevant. After 300 yds, wind is so much MORE important than any supposed flatness. Most older non-high BC bullets (of any caliber) are already being pushed nearly a foot in a 10mph @300 yds, which is the edge of the vitals. Who cares if a 300 Win Mag drops a foot less @300 yds than a 45-70 if your still being pushed two foot right in a gentle western wind of 15-20mph. If you can calculate the wind, your shooting experience is significant enough that your come ups are trivial math, and flatness is a marketing ploy.

 

[sgt_zim]

So you're thinking that a .30-30 is just as effective at 300 yards as a 7 mm Rem Mag or a .300 Win? It isn't.

I didn't say any such thing about 30-30. Not sure how you inferred that.

 

[sgt_zim]

Are you kidding? Wherever you're hunting must be very flat. In the rugged country of the Western states you had better be able to.make a 300 yard shot or you will be eating a lot of tag soup. When there is a big canyon between you and the game, you can't just stalk closer. I have killed three mule deer bucks with a side hammer Jussie loader in open sage brush and rim rock country, but that meant passing up shots on much bigger bucks. Anyone that thinks a 3 to 400 yard shot is next to impossible must be a flat land, deep woofs whitetail hunter. It's a different skill set.

Most hunters in the US live and hunt east of Interstate 35. Except for farmland, most of that is pretty heavily wooded. In that environment, and using modern bottle-neck cartridges (30-30 doesn't fit that description), there is no advantage conferred by "flat shooting cartridges." At 75 yards, a 33 Nosler won't kill a white tail deer or black bear any deader than a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser, and will ruin more meat in the bargain.

You should read the whole thread. I've made the distinction between eastern and western hunting abundantly clear. You are the only guy in 14 pages who's gotten his knickers in a twist.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

The point is, that under 300 yards the differences in drop are all but irrelevant. After 300 yds, wind is so much MORE important than any supposed flatness. Most older non-high BC bullets (of any caliber) are already being pushed nearly a foot in a 10mph @300 yds, which is the edge of the vitals. Who cares if a 300 Win Mag drops a foot less @300 yds than a 45-70 if your still being pushed two foot right in a gentle western wind of 15-20mph. If you can calculate the wind, your shooting experience is significant enough that your come ups are trivial math, and flatness is a marketing ploy.

Bullet speed (time of flight) also makes a big difference in wind drift.

 

[IvW]

My bush calibers are all I need for my style of hunting. If it can reach out to 200m that is further than what I care to hunt...further than that I get closer if it works out I win if not, whatever I was stalking wins ..

My next gun is probably gonna be a O/U Bergstutsen 9.3x74R/7×57R....

I love hunting and stalking....pulling the trigger is just the grande finale....some you win some you loose....

 

[Nevada Mike]

IMO, flat = muzzle velocity plus high BC. The better these both are the less wind drift will effect the shot. And there is less dialing and figuring and more shooting.

What does the shooter have to lose?

 

[IvW]

IMO, flat = muzzle velocity plus high BC. The better these both are the less wind drift will effect the shot. And there is less dialing and figuring and more shooting.

What does the shooter have to lose?

The experience of the hunt....

 

[CoElkHunter]

My bush calibers are all I need for my style of hunting. If it can reach out to 200m that is further than what I care to hunt...further than that I get closer if it works out I win if not, whatever I was stalking wins ..

My next gun is probably gonna be a O/U Bergstutsen 9.3x74R/7×57R....

I love hunting and stalking....pulling the trigger is just the grande finale....some you win some you loose....

+1 on your last sentence. I enjoy successfully "outwitting" a game animal and getting close to it, almost as much as pulling the trigger. It gives ME great satisfaction.

 

[Nevada Mike]

The experience of the hunt....

As much as I like to get up close and personal while hunting, sometimes it is not possible.

I often hunt Coues white-tailed deer near my home in Arizona or proghorned antelope in New Mexico. As many have learned these deer may be the most difficult to approach of any NA species. The season hunts last only about a week. If you want a deer, you must be prepared for shots at 300 yards and more. Antelope, whith their terrific eye sight and very open habitat often require longer shots.

In Africa my longest shot on my recent hunt was about 225 yards - piece of cake by Arizona standards. So my point is... "horses for courses".

 

[CoElkHunter]

As much as I like to get up close and personal while hunting, sometimes it is not possible.

I often hunt Coues white-tailed deer near my home in Arizona or proghorned antelope in New Mexico. As many have learned these deer may be the most difficult to approach of any NA species. The season hunts last only about a week. If you want a deer, you must be prepared for shots at 300 yards and more. Antelope, whith their terrific eye sight and very open habitat often require longer shots.

In Africa my longest shot on my recent hunt was about 225 yards - piece of cake by Arizona standards. So my point is... "horses for courses".

You have a great point, especially hunting on public/private land open to public hunters. I've never hunted Coues, but depending on how hard pronghorn have been hunted, a 250+ shot is not out of the question, if you get ANY shot. My longest shot on any game here prior to my African PG hunt, was about 250 yards on a pronghorn doe. I shot my impala at a confirmed 287 yards and downhill off sticks. I'm surprised (so was my PH) I hit/ killed it with the first shot. I missed a blesbok twice at an estimated 300, but got one at 300+. I had practiced off sticks at 200, but I WAS NOT PREPARED for these longer shots. But we couldn't get any closer so I had to try my best off sticks at what presented itself. Although I much prefer stalking closer and taking a shot, sometimes the longer shots are the only game in town.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

My bush calibers are all I need for my style of hunting. If it can reach out to 200m that is further than what I care to hunt...further than that I get closer if it works out I win if not, whatever I was stalking wins ..

My next gun is probably gonna be a O/U Bergstutsen 9.3x74R/7×57R....

I love hunting and stalking....pulling the trigger is just the grande finale....some you win some you loose....

Stalking close is the best, when it can be done. Not all country and game allows it. I like knowing I can get close when it's possible, and can take 300 to 400 yard shot when required. Different skill sets. It depends on where and what you're hunting.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

You have a great point, especially hunting on public/private land open to public hunters. I've never hunted Coues, but depending on how hard pronghorn have been hunted, a 250+ shot is not out of the question, if you get ANY shot. My longest shot on any game here prior to my African PG hunt, was about 250 yards on a pronghorn doe. I shot my impala at a confirmed 287 yards and downhill off sticks. I'm surprised (so was my PH) I hit/ killed it with the first shot. I missed a blesbok twice at an estimated 300, but got one at 300+. I had practiced off sticks at 200, but I WAS NOT PREPARED for these longer shots. But we couldn't get any closer so I had to try my best off sticks at what presented itself. Although I much prefer stalking closer and taking a shot, sometimes the longer shots are the only game in town.

@CoElkHunter
At your age mate it's a wonder you can see that far.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

 

[CoElkHunter]

@CoElkHunter
At your age mate it's a wonder you can see that far.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bob

I can't! That's what the scope was for! LOL

 

[Forrest Halley]

I don't see what everyone is whining about. The .458 Lott doesn't drop but 9" at 200 yards. That's pretty much good for what it's suited for. Beyond that I guess I can shoot my .375 H&H or a good old .30-06. No need to fan boy on anything new and improved.

 

[Angelo_orygun]

I don't see what everyone is whining about. The .458 Lott doesn't drop but 9" at 200 yards. That's pretty much good for what it's suited for. Beyond that I guess I can shoot my .375 H&H or a good old .30-06. No need to fan boy on anything new and improved.

This is the attitude!!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I can't! That's what the scope was for! LOL

@CoElkHunter
I know the feeling mate. Iron sights is a no no nowadays.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@CoElkHunter
I know the feeling mate. Iron sights is a no no nowadays.

Iron sights are great from about 10:30 to 14:00. Beyond that you're likely missing out.

 

[crs]

Forrest,
I still use peep sights on a couple of my lever actions with good success at close range. They are big bore guns for BG and DG and proven in USA and Africa:
1886 .45-90 with African loads of 450 grain NF at 2150 fps MV. Folding tang peep and barrel sight:

1895 .405 WCF with peep sight has taken Water Buff , Cape Buff, and lots of other big game.

Also have scoped DR over Express sights in both calibers. I do not hunt DG after dark.