Boeing Aircraft

[Brent in Az]

All true but this CEO is the guy who made the changes that resulted in this mess

Those at the top, are responsible for changes all the way to the bottom.

 

[Challer]

There are two aircraft companies in the World and one is Boeing.
Their planes are flying millions of hours every day all over the World without incident.
Both Max airplanes which crashed was being flown by foreign pilots who did not have the knowledge to handle the problem. Before the grounding same planes were being flown in US with properly trained pilots with no problems.
The last major airline crash in US was in 2009 and it was a commuter plane.
Boeing story is way overblown because it makes sensational headlines.
Boeing will generate 10 billion dollars free cashflow in 2025 and it's a great company to own the stock.
Today stock closed around $191 and mark my words a year from now it'll gain at least %25-30.

I was on eight flights in the past ten days. Pilots, FAs and all of up front were openly discussing our various boycotts of Boeing hardware other than 757/767/747.

Boeing was once great. I remember “Boeing or I’m not going.”

The Boeing system that caused the crashes was improperly designed and tested a Boeing engineers were very vocal about it.

Your comment that there were a result of foreign pilots is a bit racist. The pilots didn’t create the flawed design. Your theory comes from large institutional investors in Boeing stock.

Nearly every US pilot also crashed in the simulator under same conditions. Only 30/40 year veterans managed to recover the aircraft using an ancient procedure that hasn’t been in manuals in decades.

Boeing finally had a clear upper edge on Airbus after the A380 failure. And they’ve thrown away the edge with 787/737 MAX

 

[cash_tx]

 

[Sketchy1973]

Damn, I hate reading about the company I work for.

 

[Doubleplay]

I was on eight flights in the past ten days. Pilots, FAs and all of up front were openly discussing our various boycotts of Boeing hardware other than 757/767/747.

Boeing was once great. I remember “Boeing or I’m not going.”

The Boeing system that caused the crashes was improperly designed and tested a Boeing engineers were very vocal about it.

Your comment that there were a result of foreign pilots is a bit racist. The pilots didn’t create the flawed design. Your theory comes from large institutional investors in Boeing stock.

Nearly every US pilot also crashed in the simulator under same conditions. Only 30/40 year veterans managed to recover the aircraft using an ancient procedure that hasn’t been in manuals in decades.

Boeing finally had a clear upper edge on Airbus after the A380 failure. And they’ve thrown away the edge with 787/737 MAX

My wife works for a major US airline as and I was on a couple dozen Max airplanes in the last 6 months and I have friends who are commercial pilots and I'm a private pilot.
Nobody is discussing boycotting any Boeing plane and they are very comfortable flying it.
Tell me last time a Boeing airplane crashed in the US.
Are you serious calling me a racist because I made a comment about foreign pilots training?????
If you are educate yourself about what racism is.
Here is the NTSB report of Ethophian incident if anybody cares to read and learn before making uneducated comments.
On 27 December 2022, the NTSB released its comments on the accident separately from the final report, saying that the Ethiopian authorities failed to include them in or append them to their report.[82] The NTSB's comments read in part:[17]

Overall, the US team concurs with the EAIB's investigation of the MCAS and related systems and the roles that they played in the accident. However, many operational and human performance issues present in this accident were not fully developed as part of the EAIB investigation. These issues include flight crew performance, crew resource management (CRM), task management, and human-machine interface. It is important for the EAIB's final report to provide a thorough discussion of these relevant issues so that all possible safety lessons can be learned.

The NTSB further detailed:[17]

Appropriate crew management of the event, per the procedures that existed at the time, would have allowed the crew to recover the airplane even when faced with the uncommanded nose-down inputs.

The BEA also submitted comments to the draft final report, in which it disagrees with some aspects of the Ethiopian findings, specifically regarding crew performance. The introduction to the BEA's comments reads in part:[83]

The BEA globally agrees with the analysis of the crew performance for phases 4 and 5 of the accident scenario. However, the BEA considers that some aspects of the analysis of the crew performance in the first phases of the flight are insufficiently developed and could improve the understanding of what could have been done by the crew which could have modified the outcome of the flight.

The report continues in documenting the pilots' errors:[83]

During the accident flight, the flight crew did not make appropriate use of the associated applicable procedures on which he [sic] had received training in the preceding months.

The Captain's attempts to engage AP was in contradiction with the Approach to Stall or Stall Recovery maneuver check list, which was expected to be applied in reaction to the stick shaker activation.

Degradation of the CRM which started immediately after the AOA vane failure and which didn’t help the crew take the necessary actions to keep the plane under control although they had received an adequate recurrent training on situations that occurred in the accident flight.

 

[Doubleplay]

This certainly qualifies as the asinine post of the day.

Approx 70% of Boeing sales are in foreign markets. Those planes need to be controllable by foreign pilots
The hell with public safety, buy Boeing stock, because all the headlines are sensationalized......LOL.
Yeah, and a whistleblower met an untimely demise.

You might want to peruse some of these Boeing max incident's. Not all of them are airplane issues, but most are.

Air safety incidents for Boeing 737-800MAX

Discover air safety incidents, accidents and plane crashes for the aircraft type Boeing 737-800MAX. Learn more about the safety record for Boeing 737-800MAX

www.aeroinside.com

So that's why Boeing sold thousands of planes to foreign buyers after the Max incident.
Do you realize you are contradicting yourself?

 

[Challer]

So you read minds now?

I fly up front about 4 flights a week. I know what we talk about. I’ve got 3M miles on both United and American, each.

And no US pilot solved the problem in the simulator. Despite being given more altitude and less speed to begin with. The ones that stuck to the manual all crashed. The only demonstrated recovery was to let go of the yoke completely and try crank the trim ring over and over doing roller coaster. Boeing doesn’t train MAX pilots on that anymore.

And now they have refused to release records, video or technicians on the plug door case. That no one died is the miracle.

I know exactly what racist means. Many pilots have objected about the NTSB report. They’re just as political as any agency in DC. To think otherwise is delusional.

By all means buy on the dip. The feds will prop Boeing up for many reasons, not least of which to keep a lid on the black programs they operate. And an attempt to save face. But there’s much more downward potential and a near term short is the better play

 

[spike.t]

Share Message - Boeing chief executive Dave Calhoun to leave as firm faces safety crisis

Boeing chief executive Dave Calhoun to leave as firm faces safety crisis

Dave Calhoun will leave the planemaker at end of this year amid a deepening crisis over its safety record.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Brent in Az]

So that's why Boeing sold thousands of planes to foreign buyers after the Max incident.
Do you realize you are contradicting yourself?

Not contradicting anything. To say that the the 2 max crashes was the direct result of foreign pilots is ridiculous. They didnt know there was a problem in the flight control software, and weren't trained to deal with an issue they knew nothing about.
Those planes may have been purchased by a foreign airline, but Boeing is directly responsible.
To assume that all is well and good at Boeing is ludicrous

 

[Doubleplay]

So you read minds now?

I fly up front about 4 flights a week. I know what we talk about. I’ve got 3M miles on both United and American, each.

And no US pilot solved the problem in the simulator. Despite being given more altitude and less speed to begin with. The ones that stuck to the manual all crashed. The only demonstrated recovery was to let go of the yoke completely and try crank the trim ring over and over doing roller coaster. Boeing doesn’t train MAX pilots on that anymore.

And now they have refused to release records, video or technicians on the plug door case. That no one died is the miracle.

I know exactly what racist means. Many pilots have objected about the NTSB report. They’re just as political as any agency in DC. To think otherwise is delusional.

By all means buy on the dip. The feds will prop Boeing up for many reasons, not least of which to keep a lid on the black programs they operate. And an attempt to save face. But there’s much more downward potential and a near term short is the better play

Unless you are flying in the cockpit you have no idea!
Good for you having miles, I don't because I fly free space positive anywhere in the system because of my wife's status and have friends including pilots in this industry for 25 years.
Also don't try to bring a political angle to NTSB report which was correct, FAA who is their governing agency banned 737 Max planes for an extended period despite the report.
Do you think our pilots today would fly the 737 Max day in day out if they had any doubts about the operational safety?
To think otherwise is delusional!

 

[Doubleplay]

Not contradicting anything. To say that the the 2 max crashes was the direct result of foreign pilots is ridiculous. They didnt know there was a problem in the flight control software, and weren't trained to deal with an issue they knew nothing about.
Those planes may have been purchased by a foreign airline, but Boeing is directly responsible.
To assume that all is well and good at Boeing is ludicrous

You are diverting the question.
So why do you think foreign airlines keep buying hundreds of Boeing 737's Max after the incident if they think all is not well with Boeing?

 

[Challer]

So that's why Boeing sold thousands of planes to foreign buyers after the Max incident.
Do you realize you are contradicting yourself?

Cognitive Dissonance on display. I know why you want Boeing to be okay. I wish they were. I wish we hadn't exported all of our heavy manufacturing overseas effectively funding our enemies. Majority of our foundries and forges and shipyards are gone. But what I wish isn't what is.

In fact Boeing has lost 1,250 MAX orders. Many were shifted to 737 800/900.

Forbes/CNN
"But the bad news for Boeing is that what used to be a close race with Airbus, the world’s other major commercial jet maker, has turned into a rout. Boeing is now far behind its European rival in both orders and deliveries, with no sign of being able to catch up any time soon.

Airbus has yet to report full-year orders and deliveries, but its totals for the first 11 months of the year are far ahead of Boeing’s total, with 1,395 net orders, compared to the 1,314 annual total for Boeing, with one month of orders yet to report at Airbus. Its 11-month delivery total reached 623, or 18% ahead ahead of Boeing’s total.

Among the problems putting Boeing in the hole vs Airbus is the challenge of orders and deliveries of passenger jets to China in the face of US-Chinese trade tensions. Boeing did book orders for 18 of its 737 Max jets to China in 2023, but that was its first orders of passenger jets since 2017. And it was a fraction of China’s orders from Airbus. As recently as 2015 it was booked 210 passenger jet orders from Chinese customers.

Airbus’ lead is even greater in the single aisle passenger jet portion of the market, which is the best-selling segment of commercial aircraft sales. Boeing’s strength is in widebody jets, used primarily on international routes, and freighter aircraft.

The fact that Boeing and Airbus are the only two major global aviation companies means that Boeing probably doesn’t have to worry about being forced out of business, no matter how extensive its mistakes. Neither company could accommodate all commercial aircraft demand, and both have a backlog of orders stretching back years.

With the latest orders and deliveries numbers, Boeing’s backlog of orders now stands at 5,626 jets, up from 5,324 a year ago."

 

[Doubleplay]

Cognitive Dissonance on display. I know why you want Boeing to be okay. I wish they were. I wish we hadn't exported all of our heavy manufacturing overseas effectively funding our enemies. Majority of our foundries and forges and shipyards are gone. But what I wish isn't what is.

In fact Boeing has lost 1,250 MAX orders. Many were shifted to 737 800/900.

Forbes/CNN
"But the bad news for Boeing is that what used to be a close race with Airbus, the world’s other major commercial jet maker, has turned into a rout. Boeing is now far behind its European rival in both orders and deliveries, with no sign of being able to catch up any time soon.

Airbus has yet to report full-year orders and deliveries, but its totals for the first 11 months of the year are far ahead of Boeing’s total, with 1,395 net orders, compared to the 1,314 annual total for Boeing, with one month of orders yet to report at Airbus. Its 11-month delivery total reached 623, or 18% ahead ahead of Boeing’s total.

Among the problems putting Boeing in the hole vs Airbus is the challenge of orders and deliveries of passenger jets to China in the face of US-Chinese trade tensions. Boeing did book orders for 18 of its 737 Max jets to China in 2023, but that was its first orders of passenger jets since 2017. And it was a fraction of China’s orders from Airbus. As recently as 2015 it was booked 210 passenger jet orders from Chinese customers.

Airbus’ lead is even greater in the single aisle passenger jet portion of the market, which is the best-selling segment of commercial aircraft sales. Boeing’s strength is in widebody jets, used primarily on international routes, and freighter aircraft.

The fact that Boeing and Airbus are the only two major global aviation companies means that Boeing probably doesn’t have to worry about being forced out of business, no matter how extensive its mistakes. Neither company could accommodate all commercial aircraft demand, and both have a backlog of orders stretching back years.

With the latest orders and deliveries numbers, Boeing’s backlog of orders now stands at 5,626 jets, up from 5,324 a year ago."

If I were you I would delete your post.
Boeing 737-800/900 variant has not been produced since 2019 and Boeing has 4783 Max aircraft orders in it's backlog as of December 2023.
You have no idea what you are talking about and comparing Boeing to Airbus is a separate discussion.

 

[Challer]

Grasshopper - You have no idea my background or who I've worked for. My experience is much more than a casual observer.

I never compared Boeing and Airbus. I did quote an article.

The 1250 lost Max orders comes from Boeing as does the shift from MAX to other variants.

Your gripe is not with me, it's with Boeing.

 

[Brent in Az]

You are diverting the question.
So why do you think foreign airlines keep buying hundreds of Boeing 737's Max after the incident if they think all is not well with Boeing?

Not much to choose from.

With only 2 suppliers, the airlines need to pick who can get them planes in a reasonable time frame.
If they all jumped ship over to Airbus, the backlog would be tremendous, and it would take significantly longer to fill a customers order.
The possibilty of lost profits is more of a risk then lawsuits from a potential airline disaster.
They will always choose profit over human life. It's the ugly side of the airline industry.

 

[B0MBOY]

Not much to choose from.

With only 2 suppliers, the airlines need to pick who can get them planes in a reasonable time frame.
If they all jumped ship over to Airbus, the backlog would be tremendous, and it would take significantly longer to fill a customers order.
The possibilty of lost profits is more of a risk then lawsuits from a potential airline disaster.
They will always choose profit over human life. It's the ugly side of the airline industry.

Ding. Boeing will never face the consequences a lesser company would because they ARE the USA aerospace industry. Lawsuits for wrongful deaths and FAA fines are the cost of doing business

 

[Brent in Az]

United Airlines loses $600 million in market cap, after the FAA announces probe into safety issues.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Good writeup on the MAX crashes. Basically, the pilots didn't know the system. One of my best buds flew these and said the same thing. In the proper order, START THROWING SWITCHES! I flew a flib in the system for almost twenty years and learned there are pilots and there are systems operators. My two cents: Ethiopian had systems operators.

How did a design flaw in the flight control software cause the Boeing plane to crash in Ethiopia?

Answer: So it all starts with the redesign of the 737 max. Using the same plane but changing the engines Boeing was able to save tons of money on certifications and development for the new plane. They would also save training requirements for pilots. The A320neo was already making money and Boein...

www.quora.com

 

[Rimbaud]

Retail brokers to clients: If you liked BA stock at $400, you love it at $200 or lower.
Institutional investors, of course, will be increasingly challenged as to why they are maintaining positions in a company that has failed to make progress on known knowns for years.

 

[Red Leg]

Ding. Boeing will never face the consequences a lesser company would because they ARE the USA aerospace industry. Lawsuits for wrongful deaths and FAA fines are the cost of doing business

No, Lockheed and Northrop Grumman would absolutely disagree with that assertion. Boeing is our commercial aircraft industry, While not defense related, that does represent a rather important national asset that probably should be fixed rather than cast aside.