Article on heavier vs lighter for caliber bullet penetration

[Boone66]

No, I shot my lions before there was such a thing, I shot 3 lions all with 400 Swift A Frame 458 Winchester at 2325 fps, 24 years ago, leopard was a long time as well with 416 Remington 340 Woodliegh at 2500 fps or so..........

But, if I were leaving today I would be be taking Raptors, Wicked, deadly and rip cats to pieces.. inside anyway, don't want that hide damaged if you can help it........Without doubt a Raptor turn cats inside out.......

I am pretty sure that @PHOENIX PHIL used a 250 Raptor in his 458 B&M at 2900 fps, he didn't have any lion running off on him, I have the photos... LOL.......... I had another B&M Family member use his 458 B&M on lion with 420 Raptors and it was turned inside out, DRT, never twitched.........

If I were going with 458, I would use the 250 Socom Raptor........ 416 I would use the 225 LEver Raptor..... with talon tips of course....... Any of my 500s 300, 335, 350 Raptors would do fine...... .510 caliber that 350 Lever Raptor........... I am thinking lions with these......... Leopard.... you can get by with less of course, 120 lb cat, can get by with some less caliber..... but not 375....... we talking cats, not GD**n Rats.........


I really don't have a good answer for you, I am not long range sort of chap, 50 yards is a LONG way for me............. Animal...I recently recommended a 130 FB Raptor for elk size critters with 300 Winchester...... but long range, how long and what purpose? And I am just not your man for that sort of intel......Sorry.......

I contacted CEB, they told me 180 past 1000 yds for Elk. The plains Elk are pretty skittish up here in Montana, for B tag hunts.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Hunting Bullets: Is Heavier Better?

It's a widely accepted idea that the heavier the hunting bullet, the deeper it penetrates. But how did this idea come about? Is this really true? Let's take a looked at Sectional Density and how it may change yoru mind about heavier bulletw

cuttingedgebullets.com

Haven't read it yet but generally speaking don't believe anything sold to you by the media. If you believe 180° from what they try to sell you you're closer to the truth. There are some exceptions slightly lighter mono metal bullets performing well but in general heavier for caliber not necessarily heaviest you have to do the math... One great example being high sectional density 190 to 200 grain 30 caliber bullets getting the job done well whereas in most cases using the 220 although it has greater sectional density the lower velocity results in less energy. I can attest to using low sectional density higher velocity bullets on live targets and having them explode on the near shoulder, whereas those heavier for caliber bullets have never failed! 0.29 is good for non-dangerous game but anything 0.30 or above is great for dangerous game or anything in Africa for that matter, although solids will do virtually no damage on the smallest of antelopes. Without even reading it I'm guessing it's just another marketing piece for selling less material for greater profit the way of the guns and ammo manufacturers for quite a while now. The lighter bullets in each caliber are for varmints. Another reason to use the slightly heavier than marketed bullets is the increased BC which results in less velocity loss and ultimately less drop and more energy upon impact. I see a lot of guys using 130 grain bullets in 6.5-270-7 mm when they really should be using 140 grain minimum because there's so much more of an advantage. I get it when the factory and the store are selling them 130s doesn't mean it's right.

 

[C.W. Richter]

And when you're talking about cats you should use an entirely different mentality when it comes to bullet selection. Low SD thin jacketed bullets that tend to come apart inside the animal these are best for disrupting the nervous system of cats per the experts! When the lighter for caliber nosler partition or even the ballistic tip or Berger become your friend in Africa!!

 

[michael458]

In this thread we have talked about Raptors, Generation II, and we have spoken about Maximus, Hammer and Lehigh Copper CNC Generation I bullets, as I call them anyway, hopefully now, if you read these posts, you will have an understanding of what they do, why, and how they perform Terminally.

There is another category of Bullets, and I honestly don't know what category you would put them under, or what you would actually call them? To the best of my knowledge currently, only North Fork and Peregrine expanding CPS for North Fork, and not sure what Peregrine calls their expanding all copper bullet.....? Regardless, these bullets do not have Petals or Blades, the entire front of the copper expands, more like a conventional premium, but these seem to deliver a much heavier hit up front, and they without doubt penetrate much much deeper.............

We will talk about the North Forks first, since I have a lot more experience with them than Peregrine. Back in the days, John from North Fork when they were still in the US before the sell, we were good friends and I was working pretty close with John to get some bullets made for my various .500 caliber and later .474 caliber. John wanted me to play with two bullets he had in .458 caliber, designed primarily for 45/70....... a 325 NF CPS and 350 NF CPS.......... So I gave them a test, very thorough one at that. These were different than the normal CPS, they had deep cavities, and when testing I got a very nice surprise............

Now what I want you to see, is not only the expansion, but the depth of penetration............ If I am looking at a buffalo bullet, I like to see 20 inches of penetration in my test medium, sometimes I will look at 18, but I really like for it to be 20+ as a minimum. Here we have two 45/70 tests, at 22 and 24 inches...... This will more than do for buffalo!!!!!!

I moved on to other .458s...............

Hmmm........ More Velocity, more penetration, even when weight is dropped......... Well, that is not "conventional"

At higher velocity, 458 Lott, there is a massive amount of trauma inflicted, but penetration is still above normal, bullet edges start to take damage...... but still very viable.........

Now remember back to the Wonderful 450 and 500 gr Swift A Frames in .458, from 458 Lott and various, penetration being around 22-24 inches, and we know for a fact those are good, conventional buffalo bullets Right? Of course they are, I have used both....... So now, here is a little tiny 325 and 350 .458, giving same penetration, and at these higher velocity impacts, more trauma as well..... Hmmmm, that is not Conventional is it?

John pointed out to me on one of his visits here of how medium and or tissue viewed a CPS bullet, Cup Point Solid.......... The dished out front, is like added MEPLAT SIZE, the larger surface area up front, "Fools" the test medium and tissue into thinking the bullet is larger in diameter than the outside diameter actually is! Logic Thought, it is easy to see............This is absolutely true in all aspects.......

This is the normal 450 gr NF CPS...... not designed to expand......not to any serious degree anyway, it does flow.....

I flipped out over these bullets, I wanted these bullets for my .500 caliber cartridges, so John and I went to work for .500 caliber NF Expanding CPS......... I decided for the heavier cartridges we would do a 450 gr Ex CPS and for the smaller 50 B&M Super Short we do a 375 gr....... We also did North Fork Solids at 450 and 375........

Tests were great........ Penetration, you know I like penetration.................

As a Family, we took these bullets to Australia where we shot several tons of buffalo with them, I used them in 500 MDM, my Son Matthew used them in his 50 B&M Super Short, and my other Son Mark David used them in his 475 Super Short........ all with incredible success, and many times just knocking those buffalo in the Dirt, I also later used a 425 NF Ex CPS on a great Aussie bull and performance was incredible................

My Son Matthew with a very big body bull that he used 2 rounds of 375 gr NF Ex CPS and one NF Solid ....... the solid exited........... of course, this is 50 B&M Super Short...........Tiny gun, 16 inch barrel, weighs in at 6.25 lbs and 36 inches overall.........

Even better than the test work on the range.......... these were FAR SIDE of that buffalo above.....

This is the bull I took with 475 B&M and the 425 North Fork Ex CPS ..... Bullet through and through exited after blowing the heart up.............My Two sons Matthew and Mark David

And on this trip no way to leave out our future hunter, which made every step on many hunts in years gone by, this is Mercedes my Daughter....... BTW, she has been on elephant, many buffalo, and many other hunts since she was little.............. We have to keep up with her, not the other way around...........

There were many tons of buffalo shot with these, no failures and many of them DRT, very few bullets recovered. Later I would take some of these bullets to Africa for buffalo as well, more SSDD there ............ Same Sh&T Different Day..... or maybe something like SBRDD..... Same Buffalo Results Different Day......... LOL..............

Next, Peregrine....... More of the SAME..............

 

[Altitude sickness]

That is amazing data. And free no less. Thanks for taking the time to Share your findings

But Michael, I wish you would stop showing those short barreled beauties

 

[michael458]

And when you're talking about cats you should use an entirely different mentality when it comes to bullet selection. Low SD thin jacketed bullets that tend to come apart inside the animal these are best for disrupting the nervous system of cats per the experts! When the lighter for caliber nosler partition or even the ballistic tip or Berger become your friend in Africa!!

I hope your blow up bullets don't hit heavy bone on a lion and you do not get any penetration into vitals..................

Oh, lions are cats, they are thin skinned, use a blow up bullet that can't penetrate.......... One of the only 400 gr Swift A Frames I have recovered, and the most mangled one, was on a lion shoulder, hit the ball joint....... Fortunately it held together enough to destroy vitals and put in the the dirt on the spot............. No, not me, I will always side with penetration, and massive trauma............

You read too many books, and rely upon what is written about SD and BC way too much....... Concentrate your efforts on bullet construction and how some of these bullets work Terminally, you can throw that SD and BC out the door, that is something that writers like to use, and never consider what happens after Terminal Penetration begins......... No offense but you need to rethink some of your ideas...........

Did someone mention "Peregrine Copper Expanding" Bullets????? I think so..........

Some years ago Peregrine asked me to test and evaluate their bullets, this included the expanding copper bullets, and the solids, they sent a good supply of 458 caliber and 416 caliber to work with. I gave them a really good evaluation, I thought anyway,

In the end, at this testing 2015, I found the solids coming up just a little short on meplat size, which caused some instability, the 458s did much better than the 416s, and I recommended they increase the meplat size to at least 65%. I have not revisited this, but I am told that in many of the solids today that meplat size is indeed larger........

When testing the expanding Peregrines, I was very very impressed with the performance, and they are very much like the NF Ex CPS shown above. And they are very very Buffalo Capable, I really liked these. I had retired from hunting at this point, so I never tested these in the field, but I can tell you right now and will stand by this, you choose these for your buffalo hunt, you will not come up short or lacking in any way................

The 416s seem to have come up slightly short on penetration I like to see for buffalo........ But there was massive expansion and this is a 340 gr bullet............

As you see above the mangled one came up a little short.......... at 18 inches +, I would give these a go...... and of course one is following up with proper solids as well for that , Just in Case................

I am sure many improvements have been made since 2015........ 9 years ago..... that is a lifetime in the age of Bullet Tech..............

Now there is ONE MORE wild ass bullet, that I think also would qualify for a serious look at, Non Conventional Bullets...... Want to hear....?

 

[Altitude sickness]

Of course.

Outdoor writers and Firearm writers can be a biased source of information.

 

[Daisy]

Haven't read it yet but generally speaking don't believe anything sold to you by the media. If you believe 180° from what they try to sell you you're closer to the truth. There are some exceptions slightly lighter mono metal bullets performing well but in general heavier for caliber not necessarily heaviest you have to do the math... One great example being high sectional density 190 to 200 grain 30 caliber bullets getting the job done well whereas in most cases using the 220 although it has greater sectional density the lower velocity results in less energy. I can attest to using low sectional density higher velocity bullets on live targets and having them explode on the near shoulder, whereas those heavier for caliber bullets have never failed! 0.29 is good for non-dangerous game but anything 0.30 or above is great for dangerous game or anything in Africa for that matter, although solids will do virtually no damage on the smallest of antelopes. Without even reading it I'm guessing it's just another marketing piece for selling less material for greater profit the way of the guns and ammo manufacturers for quite a while now. The lighter bullets in each caliber are for varmints. Another reason to use the slightly heavier than marketed bullets is the increased BC which results in less velocity loss and ultimately less drop and more energy upon impact. I see a lot of guys using 130 grain bullets in 6.5-270-7 mm when they really should be using 140 grain minimum because there's so much more of an advantage. I get it when the factory and the store are selling them 130s doesn't mean it's right.

You didn’t read the article or the multiple posts with data by @michael458 on the subject, but certainly didn’t hesitate giving your opinion on the subject. And your opinion had almost nothing to do what is being discussed.

Gotta love the internet.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Took the time to read it all this a.m. I understand and respect the results of your testing of the newer concepts (especially in regards to 458 WM and other short 458s which needed ALL the help they could get-special cases begging for a fix.) That said, a lot of us will stick with what we know works well in other, larger traditional cartridges (from being educated via reading and experience in the field). By break up (Nos PT, BT) I meant into a couple pieces, NOT scattergun result. Countless non-solid 300 (.375) and 400 (.416) grainers doing 2,650 and 2,450 (SD >.300) have dropped big cats. Cats have that interesting nervous system that can be interrupted quite well using the right bullet/cartridge combo. BC really doesn't matter for shorter-range big bore guns. Are you saying that the length/cross-sectional area/mass components of a bullet (essentially SD) have little effect on penetration? "Reading too much." Hmmmmm. That's a red flag-Something the NWO and killing field types would say. Are You trying to sell something?? B&M, special monometal bullets? I am one who detests the media always trying to sell the latest, greatest thing for no other reason than annual profits on widget sales (mags & tv shows, et. al.) If I recall correctly, I think Robertson was fond of some of the NF bullets. Reading, yes, but reading unbiased testimony to educate people, rather than the typ. magazine articles peddling junk. What are the SDs of the bullets above? Monos are typ quite long, which contributes to SD. Practical Q: What happens when you fly to, let's say Namibia (for elephant and buff in the caprivi) and your B&M ammo goes missing? Perhaps they have some spares in the gift shop at Vic Falls? Meanwhile, after a quick trip to the range, you're up and hunting with your PH's spare, longer-cased traditional 375, 416, 458, 470 and/or 500! One trend I see is one that Ray Kroc (sry you'll have to read up on him lol McDs) begun long ago...the burgers (6.5 CM, et. al.) keep getting smaller and smaller and the prices continue to go up, making more profit by peddling less (brass/powder/bullet). M16 also comes to mind here, and they're finally going up several calibers (6.8 is it?) Glad to see you enjoyed success with your toys and I also always try to keep any bullets recovered, so the post-mortems are interesting as well.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Took the time to read it all this a.m. I understand and respect the results of your testing of the newer concepts (especially in regards to 458 WM and other short 458s which needed ALL the help they could get-special cases begging for a fix.) That said, a lot of us will stick with what we know works well in other, larger traditional cartridges (from being educated via reading and experience in the field). By break up (Nos PT, BT) I meant into a couple pieces, NOT scattergun result. Countless non-solid 300 (.375) and 400 (.416) grainers doing 2,650 and 2,450 (SD >.300) have dropped big cats. Cats have that interesting nervous system that can be interrupted quite well using the right bullet/cartridge combo. BC really doesn't matter for shorter-range big bore guns. Are you saying that the length/cross-sectional area/mass components of a bullet (essentially SD) have little effect on penetration? "Reading too much." Hmmmmm. That's a red flag-Something the NWO and killing field types would say. Are You trying to sell something?? B&M, special monometal bullets? I am one who detests the media always trying to sell the latest, greatest thing for no other reason than annual profits on widget sales (mags & tv shows, et. al.) If I recall correctly, I think Robertson was fond of some of the NF bullets. Reading, yes, but reading unbiased testimony to educate people, rather than the typ. magazine articles peddling junk. What are the SDs of the bullets above? Monos are typ quite long, which contributes to SD. Practical Q: What happens when you fly to, let's say Namibia (for elephant and buff in the caprivi) and your B&M ammo goes missing? Perhaps they have some spares in the gift shop at Vic Falls? Meanwhile, after a quick trip to the range, you're up and hunting with your PH's spare, longer-cased traditional 375, 416, 458, 470 and/or 500! One trend I see is one that Ray Kroc (sry you'll have to read up on him lol McDs) begun long ago...the burgers (6.5 CM, et. al.) keep getting smaller and smaller and the prices continue to go up, making more profit by peddling less (brass/powder/bullet). M16 also comes to mind here, and they're finally going up several calibers (6.8 is it?) Glad to see you enjoyed success with your toys and I also always try to keep any bullets recovered, so the post-mortems are interesting as well.

Special cases begging for a fix? Try special cases intentionally designed to work in short action and short barreled rifles. The result wasn't an accident.

 

[tward1604]

And when you're talking about cats you should use an entirely different mentality when it comes to bullet selection. Low SD thin jacketed bullets that tend to come apart inside the animal these are best for disrupting the nervous system of cats per the experts! When the lighter for caliber nosler partition or even the ballistic tip or Berger become your friend in Africa!!

I hope your blow up bullets don't hit heavy bone on a lion and you do not get any penetration into vitals..................

Oh, lions are cats, they are thin skinned, use a blow up bullet that can't penetrate.......... One of the only 400 gr Swift A Frames I have recovered, and the most mangled one, was on a lion shoulder, hit the ball joint....... Fortunately it held together enough to destroy vitals and put in the the dirt on the spot............. No, not me, I will always side with penetration, and massive trauma............

View attachment 604533

You read too many books, and rely upon what is written about SD and BC way too much....... Concentrate your efforts on bullet construction and how some of these bullets work Terminally, you can throw that SD and BC out the door, that is something that writers like to use, and never consider what happens after Terminal Penetration begins......... No offense but you need to rethink some of your ideas...........

Did someone mention "Peregrine Copper Expanding" Bullets????? I think so..........

Some years ago Peregrine asked me to test and evaluate their bullets, this included the expanding copper bullets, and the solids, they sent a good supply of 458 caliber and 416 caliber to work with. I gave them a really good evaluation, I thought anyway,






View attachment 604534

In the end, at this testing 2015, I found the solids coming up just a little short on meplat size, which caused some instability, the 458s did much better than the 416s, and I recommended they increase the meplat size to at least 65%. I have not revisited this, but I am told that in many of the solids today that meplat size is indeed larger........

When testing the expanding Peregrines, I was very very impressed with the performance, and they are very much like the NF Ex CPS shown above. And they are very very Buffalo Capable, I really liked these. I had retired from hunting at this point, so I never tested these in the field, but I can tell you right now and will stand by this, you choose these for your buffalo hunt, you will not come up short or lacking in any way................

View attachment 604537

View attachment 604536

View attachment 604535

The 416s seem to have come up slightly short on penetration I like to see for buffalo........ But there was massive expansion and this is a 340 gr bullet............

View attachment 604538

View attachment 604539

View attachment 604540

As you see above the mangled one came up a little short.......... at 18 inches +, I would give these a go...... and of course one is following up with proper solids as well for that , Just in Case................

I am sure many improvements have been made since 2015........ 9 years ago..... that is a lifetime in the age of Bullet Tech..............

Now there is ONE MORE wild ass bullet, that I think also would qualify for a serious look at, Non Conventional Bullets...... Want to hear....?

Thanks for the detailed info on Peregrine bullets. This is the kind of quality information I have been looking for. I have some .308 diameter bullets and have a strong urge to use them in my 404.

 

[Daisy]

Took the time to read it all this a.m. I understand and respect the results of your testing of the newer concepts (especially in regards to 458 WM and other short 458s which needed ALL the help they could get-special cases begging for a fix.) That said, a lot of us will stick with what we know works well in other, larger traditional cartridges (from being educated via reading and experience in the field). By break up (Nos PT, BT) I meant into a couple pieces, NOT scattergun result. Countless non-solid 300 (.375) and 400 (.416) grainers doing 2,650 and 2,450 (SD >.300) have dropped big cats. Cats have that interesting nervous system that can be interrupted quite well using the right bullet/cartridge combo. BC really doesn't matter for shorter-range big bore guns. Are you saying that the length/cross-sectional area/mass components of a bullet (essentially SD) have little effect on penetration? "Reading too much." Hmmmmm. That's a red flag-Something the NWO and killing field types would say. Are You trying to sell something?? B&M, special monometal bullets? I am one who detests the media always trying to sell the latest, greatest thing for no other reason than annual profits on widget sales (mags & tv shows, et. al.) If I recall correctly, I think Robertson was fond of some of the NF bullets. Reading, yes, but reading unbiased testimony to educate people, rather than the typ. magazine articles peddling junk. What are the SDs of the bullets above? Monos are typ quite long, which contributes to SD. Practical Q: What happens when you fly to, let's say Namibia (for elephant and buff in the caprivi) and your B&M ammo goes missing? Perhaps they have some spares in the gift shop at Vic Falls? Meanwhile, after a quick trip to the range, you're up and hunting with your PH's spare, longer-cased traditional 375, 416, 458, 470 and/or 500! One trend I see is one that Ray Kroc (sry you'll have to read up on him lol McDs) begun long ago...the burgers (6.5 CM, et. al.) keep getting smaller and smaller and the prices continue to go up, making more profit by peddling less (brass/powder/bullet). M16 also comes to mind here, and they're finally going up several calibers (6.8 is it?) Glad to see you enjoyed success with your toys and I also always try to keep any bullets recovered, so the post-mortems are interesting as well.

About the worst post I’ve seen on this board.

 

[Aaron N]

About the worst post I’ve seen on this board.

His posts get REALLY interesting Friday evenings

 

[Daisy]

His posts get REALLY interesting Friday evenings

Ha. Now I can get with that. Bourbon does flow more freely Fridays.

 

[michael458]

Are You trying to sell something?? B&M, special monometal bullets?

@C.W. Richter

I have absolutely NOTHING for sell, and not in any business related to firearms, bullets, or anything else, I receive no money for any test work, load data, pressure work or cartridge design, or anything else I might help someone with. ZERO....... Nothing at all............I have a job, and not looking for another.

But I can tell you this, if I had something for sell, I would not sell it to you at any price you can come up with, you don't have enough to deal with me.

I suggest now, that you find a hole to crawl back into, and or a subject you know something about, as you are way out of your area of expertise, and you are out of your league right now. Save yourself any further embarrassment. I am sure there are things you must know something about, stick to that. When the day comes that I need your vast wisdom on something, I will ask you for it. Right now, is not that time.

 

[Puddle]

@Puddle
If'n I want bone crushing penetration I will just load my Whelen up with 310gn Woodleigh rnsp or solids using H4350 to 2,455 fps that was developed in summer.
If'n I need more power, performance and penetration I will just stay home because it will be to big for my frying pan
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen
I've started up a loading effort to compare NF's Semi-Spitzer with my A-Frame loads. I'm using Swift's load manual #2.
In .30-06 the 180's and 200's, and in 9.3x62mm the 286's (NF doesn't off a 300 grain).
In .375 H&H the 300's, and their 350-grain compared to my Weldcore 350 grain load.
Too bad NF doesn't offer a 240 grain that I can compare to my Weldcore load in .30-06.

I'll have to wait for test media season to open when I can knock down a couple of mature, dry cow elk and hopefully recover the bullets.

 

[Houston Bill]

View attachment 604521

In this thread we have talked about Raptors, Generation II, and we have spoken about Maximus, Hammer and Lehigh Copper CNC Generation I bullets, as I call them anyway, hopefully now, if you read these posts, you will have an understanding of what they do, why, and how they perform Terminally.

There is another category of Bullets, and I honestly don't know what category you would put them under, or what you would actually call them? To the best of my knowledge currently, only North Fork and Peregrine expanding CPS for North Fork, and not sure what Peregrine calls their expanding all copper bullet.....? Regardless, these bullets do not have Petals or Blades, the entire front of the copper expands, more like a conventional premium, but these seem to deliver a much heavier hit up front, and they without doubt penetrate much much deeper.............

We will talk about the North Forks first, since I have a lot more experience with them than Peregrine. Back in the days, John from North Fork when they were still in the US before the sell, we were good friends and I was working pretty close with John to get some bullets made for my various .500 caliber and later .474 caliber. John wanted me to play with two bullets he had in .458 caliber, designed primarily for 45/70....... a 325 NF CPS and 350 NF CPS.......... So I gave them a test, very thorough one at that. These were different than the normal CPS, they had deep cavities, and when testing I got a very nice surprise............

View attachment 604524

View attachment 604525

View attachment 604526

Now what I want you to see, is not only the expansion, but the depth of penetration............ If I am looking at a buffalo bullet, I like to see 20 inches of penetration in my test medium, sometimes I will look at 18, but I really like for it to be 20+ as a minimum. Here we have two 45/70 tests, at 22 and 24 inches...... This will more than do for buffalo!!!!!!

View attachment 604522

I moved on to other .458s...............

View attachment 604523

View attachment 604520

Hmmm........ More Velocity, more penetration, even when weight is dropped......... Well, that is not "conventional"

At higher velocity, 458 Lott, there is a massive amount of trauma inflicted, but penetration is still above normal, bullet edges start to take damage...... but still very viable.........

View attachment 604527

View attachment 604528

Now remember back to the Wonderful 450 and 500 gr Swift A Frames in .458, from 458 Lott and various, penetration being around 22-24 inches, and we know for a fact those are good, conventional buffalo bullets Right? Of course they are, I have used both....... So now, here is a little tiny 325 and 350 .458, giving same penetration, and at these higher velocity impacts, more trauma as well..... Hmmmm, that is not Conventional is it?

John pointed out to me on one of his visits here of how medium and or tissue viewed a CPS bullet, Cup Point Solid.......... The dished out front, is like added MEPLAT SIZE, the larger surface area up front, "Fools" the test medium and tissue into thinking the bullet is larger in diameter than the outside diameter actually is! Logic Thought, it is easy to see............This is absolutely true in all aspects.......

This is the normal 450 gr NF CPS...... not designed to expand......not to any serious degree anyway, it does flow.....

View attachment 604519

I flipped out over these bullets, I wanted these bullets for my .500 caliber cartridges, so John and I went to work for .500 caliber NF Expanding CPS......... I decided for the heavier cartridges we would do a 450 gr Ex CPS and for the smaller 50 B&M Super Short we do a 375 gr....... We also did North Fork Solids at 450 and 375........

View attachment 604531

Tests were great........ Penetration, you know I like penetration.................

View attachment 604529

View attachment 604532

View attachment 604530

As a Family, we took these bullets to Australia where we shot several tons of buffalo with them, I used them in 500 MDM, my Son Matthew used them in his 50 B&M Super Short, and my other Son Mark David used them in his 475 Super Short........ all with incredible success, and many times just knocking those buffalo in the Dirt, I also later used a 425 NF Ex CPS on a great Aussie bull and performance was incredible................

My Son Matthew with a very big body bull that he used 2 rounds of 375 gr NF Ex CPS and one NF Solid ....... the solid exited........... of course, this is 50 B&M Super Short...........Tiny gun, 16 inch barrel, weighs in at 6.25 lbs and 36 inches overall.........

View attachment 604517

Even better than the test work on the range.......... these were FAR SIDE of that buffalo above.....

View attachment 604516

View attachment 604515

This is the bull I took with 475 B&M and the 425 North Fork Ex CPS ..... Bullet through and through exited after blowing the heart up.............My Two sons Matthew and Mark David

View attachment 604518

And on this trip no way to leave out our future hunter, which made every step on many hunts in years gone by, this is Mercedes my Daughter....... BTW, she has been on elephant, many buffalo, and many other hunts since she was little.............. We have to keep up with her, not the other way around...........

View attachment 604514

There were many tons of buffalo shot with these, no failures and many of them DRT, very few bullets recovered. Later I would take some of these bullets to Africa for buffalo as well, more SSDD there ............ Same Sh&T Different Day..... or maybe something like SBRDD..... Same Buffalo Results Different Day......... LOL..............

Next, Peregrine....... More of the SAME..............

Thank you for sharing your information. It has been very educational for me to read your feedback on this thread. Thanks again.

 

[ldmay375]

Fact:
Anyone that knows Michael458, Knows he ain't selling nor attempting to sell shat in the firearms, bullets, and or cartridge world.

An example:
Literally he developed and re-worked loads, pressure tested bullets and powders in the 458 Lott, basically for me. He moved on from the Lott, years ago.
Those bullets included Hammer Bullets, North Fork, Lehigh, Swift, and CEB. Hell, I could barely get him to accept "some of" the bullets for the load tests.
And yep, he has cartridges that duplicate and surpass existing .458's. He has never, attempted "to sell" me.

The .458 North Fork 350 grain Expanding CPS is impressive. As is the 325 grain CEB solid. Now that little bullet shocks the sensibilities of conventional weight thought.

 

[Daisy]

Fact:
Anyone that knows Michael458, Knows he ain't selling nor attempting to sell shat in the firearms, bullets, and or cartridge world.

An example:
Literally he developed and re-worked loads, pressure tested bullets and powders in the 458 Lott, basically for me. He moved on from the Lott, years ago.
Those bullets included Hammer Bullets, North Fork, Lehigh, Swift, and CEB. Hell, I could barely get him to accept "some of" the bullets for the load tests.
And yep, he has cartridges that duplicate and surpass existing .458's. He has never, attempted "to sell" me.

The .458 North Fork 350 grain Expanding CPS is impressive. As is the 325 grain CEB solid. Now that little bullet shocks the sensibilities of conventional weight thought.

Same for me. He helped me work up loads for three calibers. For free. Never wanted to sell me a thing. Has been a big help to me.

 

[Houston Bill]

Fact:
Anyone that knows Michael458, Knows he ain't selling nor attempting to sell shat in the firearms, bullets, and or cartridge world.

An example:
Literally he developed and re-worked loads, pressure tested bullets and powders in the 458 Lott, basically for me. He moved on from the Lott, years ago.
Those bullets included Hammer Bullets, North Fork, Lehigh, Swift, and CEB. Hell, I could barely get him to accept "some of" the bullets for the load tests.
And yep, he has cartridges that duplicate and surpass existing .458's. He has never, attempted "to sell" me.

The .458 North Fork 350 grain Expanding CPS is impressive. As is the 325 grain CEB solid. Now that little bullet shocks the sensibilities of conventional weight thought.

Agreed! I do not know Michael458 but just from his posts I can tell he is a wealth of knowledge on the subjects he speaks about on this site. We are all better off due to the participation on this site by folks like Michael458!!