Article on heavier vs lighter for caliber bullet penetration

[Daisy]

Very good point. I used a neck shot to fill my 2023 MT deer tag, as it was an animal I would be eating. (7 mag with a berger 180 grain VLD). To avoid lead and meat damage I used a high neck shot. My double standard here is that the Berger’s shoot so well…
But, I prefer Barnes for Africa for the high shoulder shots.

I think you missed my intent of the second point, the point to which your response started "I am not here to argue."

But that's fine, I'm not here to argue either, I'm here to understand the entirety of the performance.

So, moving on:
To the first point, are you stating that once we are past the point of the BLADES, in the animal, so the bullet has penetrated and shed the blades and now continues through the animal.

Are you stating that that shank that continues through the animal is still producing more damage than an expanded Aframe or the like? It's producing a larger more devastating wound channel even in that form?

So, in case I wasn't clear. What I'm talking about is this.

In your penetration test of the 458 lott A-frame, the A-frame penetrated to a depth of 24".
The CEB Raptor to 29" AVG, though from a different round. That dimension is what I'm talking about.

Let's just presume expansion from the start to leave out the variable of when these start expanding, as that just opens another bit of mess.

Then the A frame would have 24" of expanded, to a degree or another, wound channel.

But the CEB sheds it's blades and then becomes a solid, so it would have an expanded wound channel as deep as the blades continue, but then the wound channel would be that of a solid, correct?

So, you noted 5-8" for the blades, I'm guessing with these numbers you actually meant the blades penetrated 5-8" away from the main wound channel, you're talking about a different dimension here.

What I meant is how far into the medium did you find the blades in regard to the same dimension as the bullet shank.

So, the shank penetrated 29" on avg., how far did the blades make it in on that same axis? Or do they really only penetrate to 5-8" into the media. Not the distance they spread out from the main wound channel, but the depth to which they penetrate, the A-frame penetrated to 24", the shank of the CEB to 29" avg, how far did the blades reach in this same dimension?


By the way, CEB, on their site, and what I checked was the 420gr .458, has this, "Instead of mushrooming, six petals shear off...," so the quarrel about petal vs. blade can be had with the powers that be, either way we know what we're discussing. No need to beat that drum.

And honest to GOD I'm not speaking in an adversarial voice here, I'm trying to understand the degree to which these CEBs may be useful over a bonded bullet, and if there is an area where they would lose to that same bullet. Only then can I know what may be best for me

Those are all great questions. Michael will have great answers.

Just a heads up. Michael helped design and test those bullets. So you’re not debating a yokel like me, but the expert. So a little different than a normal back and forth.

I doubt you’ll find much traction in the “a frame causing more damage because bigger while traveling”. The knock on raptors has never been they don’t cause enough damage. Really ever.

 

[michael458]

I'm here to understand the entirety of the performance.

Ok, lets dive in and see if we can help...........

Are you stating that that shank that continues through the animal is still producing more damage than an expanded Aframe or the like? It's producing a larger more devastating wound channel even in that form?

No, not saying anything, other than the remaining solid which is similar to a broken beer bottle full wadcutter bullet, continues to penetrate dead straight, when it exits, it also cuts a full wadcutter type hole in the tissue, and the hide too, this hole will not close back. This remaining sharp edged wadcutter solid penetrates deeper than any conventional expanding bullet is capable of. How much penetration do you need? I am a penetration nut, I want exits, I want blood flowing out both ends, I want air being sucked into chest cavity and I want that extra trauma inflicted.

OK, lets assume we are talking buffalo, lets assume we are talking proper caliber, lets say 458 Caliber. Which I have a good deal of experience with. Most all the buffalo I have shot with 458s, 500 Swifts, 450 Swifts, 500 Woodleighs.....I have recovered in the hide far side.... full chest cavity penetration, so that is good, nothing came up completely short....... All were dead, some expired without another shot fired, others were a running gun battle regardless of first shot being more than adequate (buffalo are just that way sometimes)........ Damage to tissue of course was adequate.. and there were no surprises to the amount of tissue destruction.

Buffalo I have shot with 420 Raptors in various 458s have been devasting. You can see it in animal reactions to taking the first shot. I have recovered very few Raptor remaining bullets. I recovered one from a cow buffalo shot frontal, passed through the heart, other internals, completely through the stomach and contents and found just past the stomach, about 4 feet or more.

Now, lets review what I said above on just exactly how a Raptor works..........

After Terminal penetration begins at around 1.5-2 inches the blades shear all at the same time, this is an explosive event, if you look at video of gel, you can see this effect. Considering larger bore Raptors with larger blades, at shear 6 blades surround the remaining broken beer bottle sharp edge wadcutter bullet, as penetration continues these blades begin to move away from center bullet in a star pattern, for 3-5 inches after shear and as tissue expands away from the bullet, these blades slice and dice that tissue destroying it, so it does not contract back around the wound channel, the wound channel for that area has been expanded greatly by this slice and dice of the blades. As penetration continues the blades continue to move away from center, and they become slice and dice projectiles on the own, they continue through surrounding organs, vessels, and any other tissue they come in contact with. In buffalo these blades will always be caught up mostly in internal organs, careful observation you will find them in the skinning shed in the goop and slop removed. Remaining center bullet will almost always exit broadside. There is tremendous blood loss with Raptors because of the blades, damage to internals is massive. In smaller animals, 200 lbs or less, I have seen larger bore blades EXIT the far side, anything from 8-12 inches from center bullet.

Remember the heart shot cow I mentioned above....? This is the heart.......

This is what the remaining 420 Raptor bullet penetrated completely in the stomach, found on the far side end to end of the stomach.........

This is the recovered remaining 420 Raptor from that cow buffalo......

In the test work we set up what we call "Witness Cards" inside the test medium, a mixture of wet news print and layers of catalog/magazine material. These Witness cards are laminated card stock. At various depths of penetration they gave us a good view of what was happening with the bullet and how they behaved......... This is a Witness card placed at 4 inches inside the test medium with the 458 420 Raptor. You can see the blades surrounding the center bullet.

Another Raptor test with 416 shows the same......

A Witness card at 2 inches with 9.3 caliber Raptor.....

A Happy Halloween Pumpkin from CEB Advert.......

Someone sent this photo of a buffalo heart with a Raptor, you can see the blades slicing ....

Someone else sent this shot of a Raptor ...

I shot this crocodile as he was jumping up to grab onto a bait, this is the top of the head, I kinda see a "Star Pattern" here...... also this was a 420 Raptor in 458...Yes, the Taxidermist did a pretty good job of sorting this out.

Little hard to tell, but this is a buffal heart nearly cleaved in two by a 450 Raptor in 500 MDM......

Others sent these photos of Raptors in Tissue.....

This is an eland heart with a 350 Raptor in 500 MDM at 2800 fps 50 yard impact....

And I can go on and on with more of the same......... A Conventional Premium is great, it is what we had, and they worked fine, I used them, shot many a critter with them in various calibers and cartridges.... all with success............. But never, not ever have I seen devastating effects that a Raptor can inflict with any other bullet ever fired. There is no upper end to velocity that we can handle in a shoulder fired firearm, the more velocity, the deadlier these things are, and the more of everything you get, including penetration. In any Aqueous Material, test medium or animal tissue, these bullets behave and perform exactly the same, BORINGLY SO, time after time after time.

Tissue destruction up front is horrendous, massive entry wounds similar to massive exit wounds you may have seen with some destructive bullets on deer and such, fist size entrances where those blades shear, and always a caliber size wadcutter hole on the exit end. Some guys that never inspected internal damage thought the bullet had "Blown Up" on entry, and penciled through on exit....... that is until they started opening chest cavities and then it was a different story, I have not heard one of those stories in many years now, only in the beginning..............

Its up to you, if you don' t believe or have too much love for the old days, that is fine, I too used great conventional bullets at one time, because it was the best we had. Those days are gone, we do indeed have better tools at hand...... I am going to use the best tool available to me, to insure and enhance my success in the field. Others have to make that choice for themselves......... Hope this helps some, and I apologize if I misunderstood the meaning of a prior post..............

Oh, and i am not finished, this is continued, I intend to give you a complete story, just I am a bit long winded sometimes, and I type rather well.........HEH

 

[BeeMaa]

Several years ago I switched our 300WM bullets from 180 grain SAF’s to the 165 grain Barnes TTSX.

My reasoning was two fold. First was the Barnes was slightly more accurate and second was the all copper design. I tried several weights of several premium bullets and our 300WM’s really like the 165 TTSX.

Penetration has been more than adequate for any appropriately sized game. If something bigger comes along, the 375H&H gets pulled out. And that is also shooting a Barnes bullet.

 

[michael458]

Just a heads up. Michael helped design and test those bullets. So you’re not debating a yokel like me, but the expert. So a little different than a normal back and forth.

Thank you, however I am just a shooter/hunter, just like everyone else here, I just happen to get serious about bullet tech, and I don't trust others to tell me what I need to know. And its not always because they might be hiding facts, its also because they don't know the facts.

Indeed, I did have a lot to do with tweaking the Raptors to perform like they currently do. Every big bore Raptor was tested here, and tweaked to get the right performance. Everything from 9.3 caliber all the way to .620 caliber, with the exception of .375 caliber which I refuse to have anything to do with, CEB was on their own with that caliber. Most of the time CEB got it right, from our experiences with 458 and 500s............ in the beginning the 416s, 410s and many of those, the blades were too thick, cavity too small, so that had to be enlarged to get proper shear at normal velocities....... and there were a few Generations to get things just right. After a point, Dan and CEB crew had plenty of experience, test work and field work to get many other things on their own. What an incredible bunch to work with and willing not only to learn, but to improve upon everything, and then to take things a step ahead. The same can be said for North Fork before they moved to Europe, I was and still am good friend with John from North Fork. We were working on other areas at the same time we were working with CEB on the Raptors and CEB Solids.

@BeeMaa , I love the Barnes TSX and others, I can't keep up with all the different models. Early on in this adventure, I had moved from Swift to the Barnes, especially after they discovered by putting the grooves in this gave a place for that copper to flow, accuracy increased and consistency increased by leaps and bounds, and I like the mode of terminal performance they give, even though by todays standards I would consider them more conventional than Non Conventional. If there was no such thing as Gen I and Gen II CNC, I would be using the Barnes TSX types myself.........

Bullet tech is one of my favorite topics, and while we are on it, I would like to continue to show you more Raptors, more Generation I CNC, and even some other Non Coventional Trauma inflicting bullets that are out there, that are just superb.........

 

[michael458]

More Raptor Stuff...............

I was heavily invested in .500 caliber because of the various B&M cartridges, I had to have serious .500 caliber bullets to accomplish my mission with the B&Ms, so the very first Raptors were of course .500 Caliber. The mighty CEB Solid in .500 was 500 gr. We put a .40 inch deep cavity in the 500 Solid, broached it for 6 blades, and called it a Non Con at the time, being that the terminal performance was "Non-Conventional", on a couple of years later did Dan come up with the name Raptor, which is incredibly appropriate and had my utmost approval. The first Raptor was 460 gr, later when working on the .510 Raptors, I had Dan make the cavities the same, so the weight went down to 450 gr in the .500s...... Some of the first test work done........ at 460......

Take note of the blades surrounding center bullet at 4 inches inside test medium...........

Remember me saying increased velocity with Raptors, you get an increase in everything........ This is the same bullet tested at much higher velocity that the 500 MDM could produce..............

And the 4 inch Witness Card for this test.............

The very first buffalo I shot in 2011 with a Raptor was a 450 gr .500 Caliber Raptor at 2450 fps in 500 MDM. This was also the first year I had started to wear glasses, and I left the damn things in camp! Now, that might be an excuse for what happened, or it might not, but I can't really explain this ....... nice bull, 50 yards, dead broadside looking at me. Easy Easy shot, but in the shadows of some trees....? I was dead on the shoulder, or so I thought, fired, buffalo bucks up, runs.... OK, rather typical...... No chance for another shot with solids.... check the area, OMG... GUT BLOOD SPOTS..... Crap, we are in for a rough day. WTF? Beating myself up, how stupid. We don't wait, we follow up immediately, I don't care, this has to be solved.

The area is fairly open, there is no heavy thick brush, so we could see ahead of us a good bit. We had not gone a 100 yards from the scene of the shot, when we spotted our bull slowly walking ahead of us. Well, this was a big surprise, we continued at a fast walk catching up to him, still he had not turned, he continued a slow walk......... ??? One of my thoughts was WTF was going on? I honestly veered slightly to the left, I had a clear path, and I honest to god walked a little faster than the bull was walking beside him at no more than 10 steps, finally when I was about to get in front of him, he turned to the right in an attempt to move away, at that point I busted him in the shoulder with another 460 Raptor and he went down like a ton of bricks on the spot..... End of story, almost.....?? I had never seen or even heard of anything like this. All I had ever seen or heard that I was in for a long long haul recovering this bull. Not walk beside him at less than a 100 yards from the shot.......

Closer inspection showed a "Perfect Gut Shot" buffalo........ I could not have done better if I had tried. Back at the shed, that shot had torn him to pieces inside, the bullet did exit, and all we can figure is that the first shot had done so much damage it made the poor thing so sick that he just could not go.

This was not my first rodeo with a gut shot... HEH... Sorry but yes, I had done a few before, I once gut shot a eland, I was trying to be over productive, had put a zebra down, my second shot was on an eland on my other side, looking for a "Two For", and misplaced the shot, resulting in a full day lost along with half day the next morning............. another was a buffalo, not entirely my fault, the PH insisted shoot through the brush, it will be fine, I said NO, don't shoot through the brush, too much of a chance it deflects......... He says shoot, I finally relent and shoot, bullet hits brush, deflects, gut shot buffalo, not recovered until the next day. My fault, I should not have shot! His Fault, he should have listened, so we were both at fault......... That turned into a battle...... Next morning we went out early...... following up PH goes one way to check and I go another way to check for signs........ After a few minutes I heard him start shooting........... I took off in a run, he was probably not 50-75 yards away, he had fired twice and the POS rifle had jammed on him, buffalo standing about 25-30 yards out with two little 375 caliber holes in his nose, not much effect BTW, I was shooting a 50 B&M 510 Solids at 2150 fps, I fell in in front of the PH and hit the buffalo in the chest with that, and that was end of the gut shot buffalo............ All good fun, but I would have just as soon it not occurred.......

So to have a buffalo just walking slowly along at less than a 100 yards from the shot was a bit shocking to say the least, there is no doubt in my mind a lesser bullet could not have done that much damage and hell I might still be chasing a damn buffalo........... But that Raptor did what Raptors do, and tore him to pieces causing massive trauma.........

I repeated this nearly exact same situation a couple of years later with a Wildebeest, gut shot with a 458 B&M and 250 Raptor at 2900 fps. So much damage done that I truly just walked along beside him and sorted it out..........

If you shoot enough, these things happen...... Its not perfect in the field always....... sometimes what I see is not always what is real....... But, I am retired from hunting now......

The Mighty Gut Shot buffalo, and my Daughter when she was 8 yrs old.......

She also got to drive us around a bit in the bush................

 

[calling4life]

Its up to you, if you don't believe or have too much love for the old days, that is fine, I too used great conventional bullets at one time, because it was the best we had. Those days are gone, we do indeed have better tools at hand...... I am going to use the best tool available to me, to insure and enhance my success in the field. Others have to make that choice for themselves......... Hope this helps some, and I apologize if I misunderstood the meaning of a prior post..............

Oh, and i am not finished, this is continued, I intend to give you a complete story, just I am a bit long winded sometimes, and I type rather well.........HEH

I used the A-frame in discussion because you had it in your testing, so you'd obviously be familiar with it and it was already in the thread, I also use it because it is ubiquitous as far as bonded lead bullets go.

Honestly was not trying to do some one-upmanship, wouldn't be having this conversation if I didn't believe you, just trying to get some specifics, to determine what's best for me. I don't even use A-frames so I wouldn't have any odd loyalty to them.

Ok, oh, and I'm not trying to stump you, I'm mining you for information.

I have another question for you, if you are interested.

With the understanding that we are only referring to a charge now (for our conversation), stopping an animal that is charging to kill the shooter.
And we can limit this to buffalo and smaller to keep elephant in its own world, if you like, discuss what you see fit.

Would you trust these raptors to perform consistently (key word) in frontal brain shots of charging animals?

Good straight-line penetration, no deflection etc...

I've seen that you note that the shank does penetrate straight in general, but now let's hit it with specifics, angled bone, cartilage, the mess that is a charge. Your crocodile shot being a fair enough data point, was that shot from the underside and that picture is of the exit on the top of the head?

So, Is it going to perform in charge, is it trustworthy here (pro-hunter backup trustworthy?), and then there tends to be a second question here.

You noted you know the 458s, that's great, I run a 458 lott, so in this scenario, of a charge, you have the 420gr raptor and there is a 470gr raptor, is there going to be a difference in what you'd recommend here as far as weights, or do you believe the 420s will maintain that straight-line penetration even in this difficult scenario so it'd be a non-issue.

Thought I had a box of ammo with the 420 raptors, turns out it was the 404 hammers, my normal load is the 500gr trophy bonded bearclaw, but I'm contemplating making this gun an 18" 500 Jeff, which is part of my dive for info.

 

[michael458]

I have another question for you, if you are interested.

Always, thank you, but this afternoon my time is limited so I will only be able to make a few, short points......... but in the morning we will dive in head first if you like....

Your crocodile shot being a fair enough data point, was that shot from the underside and that picture is of the exit on the top of the head?

Actually that is an Entrance, I shot top of the head as he raised up to latch on the bait...... kinda a snap decision, but it damn sure worked..........

You noted you know the 458s, that's great, I run a 458 lott, so in this scenario, of a charge, you have the 420gr raptor and there is a 470gr raptor, is there going to be a difference in what you'd recommend here as far as weights, or do you believe the 420s will maintain that straight-line penetration even in this difficult scenario so it'd be a non-issue.

Quick answer, and not addressing charge......... I recommend the 420 for 458 Lott as well, it is MORE than enough to hammer buffalo, and i Have several friends that have done just that with their 458 Lott, I also have good loads for that as well, and pressure data........ something we can dive into tomorrow morning............

Tomorrow morning we will address in full Raptors and charging buffalo, I had that happen too..... we will discuss....... excellent question and topic as well.......

Thought I had a box of ammo with the 420 raptors, turns out it was the 404 hammers,

The 404 Hammers are excellent Generation I buffalo bullets, I tested them here for the guys, and later some of these guys did just that with great success.......... Its a "Hammer" of a bullet HEHHEH....But it is Generation I and it does work different terminally than the Raptors....... I would like to discuss Gen I completely in this same thread, and then move to some other very interesting bullets that I would also classify as Non Conventional at least........

@calling4life ...... No worries my friend, we are good........ and look forward to some great conversation about my favorite subject..... Bullets.......... You can have the greatest most expensive rifle on the planet, you can have the latest greatest biggest meanest cartridge ever devised, but if you load it with shit bullets, you will get shit results.......... The Bullet does all the Heavy Lifting......Its all about the Bullet you choose............

 

[Boone66]

Soo, with all that wonderful advice, I picked up some 110gr raptors with nose pieces for a 10in 30-30. The company guy I talked to said they would be good for elk and bear, as well as anything else in MONTANA. I loaded some up and still need to head to the range. I'm hoping the nose piece will help with the buck brush, if not I will switch to 150HC to punch through it. First time trying these.

 

[TucsonFX4]

More Raptor Stuff...............

I was heavily invested in .500 caliber because of the various B&M cartridges, I had to have serious .500 caliber bullets to accomplish my mission with the B&Ms, so the very first Raptors were of course .500 Caliber. The mighty CEB Solid in .500 was 500 gr. We put a .40 inch deep cavity in the 500 Solid, broached it for 6 blades, and called it a Non Con at the time, being that the terminal performance was "Non-Conventional", on a couple of years later did Dan come up with the name Raptor, which is incredibly appropriate and had my utmost approval. The first Raptor was 460 gr, later when working on the .510 Raptors, I had Dan make the cavities the same, so the weight went down to 450 gr in the .500s...... Some of the first test work done........ at 460......

View attachment 603122

Take note of the blades surrounding center bullet at 4 inches inside test medium...........

Remember me saying increased velocity with Raptors, you get an increase in everything........ This is the same bullet tested at much higher velocity that the 500 MDM could produce..............

View attachment 603124

And the 4 inch Witness Card for this test.............

View attachment 603123

The very first buffalo I shot in 2011 with a Raptor was a 450 gr .500 Caliber Raptor at 2450 fps in 500 MDM. This was also the first year I had started to wear glasses, and I left the damn things in camp! Now, that might be an excuse for what happened, or it might not, but I can't really explain this ....... nice bull, 50 yards, dead broadside looking at me. Easy Easy shot, but in the shadows of some trees....? I was dead on the shoulder, or so I thought, fired, buffalo bucks up, runs.... OK, rather typical...... No chance for another shot with solids.... check the area, OMG... GUT BLOOD SPOTS..... Crap, we are in for a rough day. WTF? Beating myself up, how stupid. We don't wait, we follow up immediately, I don't care, this has to be solved.

The area is fairly open, there is no heavy thick brush, so we could see ahead of us a good bit. We had not gone a 100 yards from the scene of the shot, when we spotted our bull slowly walking ahead of us. Well, this was a big surprise, we continued at a fast walk catching up to him, still he had not turned, he continued a slow walk......... ??? One of my thoughts was WTF was going on? I honestly veered slightly to the left, I had a clear path, and I honest to god walked a little faster than the bull was walking beside him at no more than 10 steps, finally when I was about to get in front of him, he turned to the right in an attempt to move away, at that point I busted him in the shoulder with another 460 Raptor and he went down like a ton of bricks on the spot..... End of story, almost.....?? I had never seen or even heard of anything like this. All I had ever seen or heard that I was in for a long long haul recovering this bull. Not walk beside him at less than a 100 yards from the shot.......

Closer inspection showed a "Perfect Gut Shot" buffalo........ I could not have done better if I had tried. Back at the shed, that shot had torn him to pieces inside, the bullet did exit, and all we can figure is that the first shot had done so much damage it made the poor thing so sick that he just could not go.

This was not my first rodeo with a gut shot... HEH... Sorry but yes, I had done a few before, I once gut shot a eland, I was trying to be over productive, had put a zebra down, my second shot was on an eland on my other side, looking for a "Two For", and misplaced the shot, resulting in a full day lost along with half day the next morning............. another was a buffalo, not entirely my fault, the PH insisted shoot through the brush, it will be fine, I said NO, don't shoot through the brush, too much of a chance it deflects......... He says shoot, I finally relent and shoot, bullet hits brush, deflects, gut shot buffalo, not recovered until the next day. My fault, I should not have shot! His Fault, he should have listened, so we were both at fault......... That turned into a battle...... Next morning we went out early...... following up PH goes one way to check and I go another way to check for signs........ After a few minutes I heard him start shooting........... I took off in a run, he was probably not 50-75 yards away, he had fired twice and the POS rifle had jammed on him, buffalo standing about 25-30 yards out with two little 375 caliber holes in his nose, not much effect BTW, I was shooting a 50 B&M 510 Solids at 2150 fps, I fell in in front of the PH and hit the buffalo in the chest with that, and that was end of the gut shot buffalo............ All good fun, but I would have just as soon it not occurred.......

So to have a buffalo just walking slowly along at less than a 100 yards from the shot was a bit shocking to say the least, there is no doubt in my mind a lesser bullet could not have done that much damage and hell I might still be chasing a damn buffalo........... But that Raptor did what Raptors do, and tore him to pieces causing massive trauma.........

I repeated this nearly exact same situation a couple of years later with a Wildebeest, gut shot with a 458 B&M and 250 Raptor at 2900 fps. So much damage done that I truly just walked along beside him and sorted it out..........

If you shoot enough, these things happen...... Its not perfect in the field always....... sometimes what I see is not always what is real....... But, I am retired from hunting now......

The Mighty Gut Shot buffalo, and my Daughter when she was 8 yrs old.......

View attachment 603120

She also got to drive us around a bit in the bush................

View attachment 603121

Perhaps this is better served in a separate thread or even just in a PM, but I’m curious of your level of experience and thoughts on the Hammer HHTs compared to these Raptors?

On the surface, it seems the Raptors are longer by weight than the HHTs (typically meaning a certain twist barrel will stabilize a heavier HHT but not a similarly weighted Raptor). The ballistic coefficient edge also goes to the HHT, but that part is an off the cuff guess by me because the manufacturers post different results (G1 vs G7). I know both brand’s BC is easily bested by a traditional lead core, but I think it’s a worthy comparison factor for shedding mono vs shedding mono.

Anyhow, any real world experience comparing them would be pretty valuable. Thanks!

 

[Daisy]

Perhaps this is better served in a separate thread or even just in a PM, but I’m curious of your level of experience and thoughts on the Hammer HHTs compared to these Raptors?

On the surface, it seems the Raptors are longer by weight than the HHTs (typically meaning a certain twist barrel will stabilize a heavier HHT but not a similarly weighted Raptor). The ballistic coefficient edge also goes to the HHT, but that part is an off the cuff guess by me because the manufacturers post different results (G1 vs G7). I know both brand’s BC is easily bested by a traditional lead core, but I think it’s a worthy comparison factor for shedding mono vs shedding mono.

Anyhow, any real world experience comparing them would be pretty valuable. Thanks!

I like hammers but love raptors.

CEB makes an Extended Range raptor with a ballistic coefficient that gets close to most other long range bullets. They also have a maximus line which has higher ballistic coefficient, and those are much more similar to the hunter bullets. The idea is the blades travel more in line with the wound channel in generation one, and they expand outwardly explosively in the second generation raptors

I use a 225 grain extended range raptor in my 338 Lapua, a 275 grain safari raptor followed by a 300 grain maximus in my 375 Ruger; and 370 grain safari raptor followed with 400 grain maximus in my 416 Ruger. I have experience with a 260 grain hammer bullet in my Lapua.

 

[michael458]

With the understanding that we are only referring to a charge now (for our conversation), stopping an animal that is charging to kill the shooter.
And we can limit this to buffalo and smaller to keep elephant in its own world, if you like, discuss what you see fit.

Would you trust these raptors to perform consistently (key word) in frontal brain shots of charging animals?

Good straight-line penetration, no deflection etc...

So, Is it going to perform in charge, is it trustworthy here (pro-hunter backup trustworthy?), and then there tends to be a second question here.

How many times have we heard some folks say, we no longer needed solids for buffalo? Our Trauma inflicting bullets, Premium softs and so forth were so good today, solids were no longer needed?

Well in 2011 I got to thinking about that, and yes, this 460 Raptor I was using in 500 MDM was without doubt a big hammer on buffalo, it was slamming them hard. So I was thinking, maybe this Raptor is so damn good, lots of penetration, maybe a solid was not needed?

The evening before I had a serious altercation with a village raiding elephant. It got dark before the skinning and cutting up process could begin, so we called it a night. Going back the next morning, we are driving along and off in the distance there was 3 fantastic bull buffalo. We dismounted to get a closer look and made our approach. At that point they must have been startled at something on the other side and started moving towards us. When the lead bull was about 30 yards out, he stopped on top of a little knoll, I had a great shot on the point of his left shoulder, I fired, and he jumped through a small gap in the brush only a few steps to his right, and disappeared. Before going through the gap, I loaded another 460 Raptor down, and put it in the chamber. I was now following up a possible wounded buffalo with a trauma inflicting bullet, this was a first for me. We just went through the gap, and 10 steps in front of and just to the left our bull was down. Problem was, his rear was to the brush and he was behind a fallen log as well, so no approach from the rear, and no possible insurance shot from the side because of the log.

I did what you never should do, and that is approach from the FRONT. I did not see much of a choice, I could have just waiting a bit, but I am not a patient individual, start a dance, you end the dance...... Do as I say, not as I have done............. Anyway, at about 5 steps or so in front, the bull comes to life and stands up in front of me, he is seriously busted all to hell on that front left shoulder and its broken all to hell and he can't move forward I didn't think, I threw up and hit him just below the eyes, an inch or so too low perhaps and just as fast a big 500 gr CEB #13 Solid next to it before he gave up completely and went back down. Well damn, that was pretty exciting, especially after having an elephant that tried to eat me the evening before, I was on a roll............

We set up for photos..... Yeah, no photo, it didn't happen.... And while taking photos I found the 500 gr CEB Solid sticking out of his rear end, nose first, just to the right side of center........ That Solid had penetrated through the head and completely through the entire body of the buffalo, sticking nose forward out his ass! NOT BAD............ Back at processing later, we found the head shot Raptor back in the shoulder area..........

The point of the shoulder shot, first shot, was absolutely devastating, it was found way back on the right side, maybe 4 feet or so total penetration, had completely busted the shoulder to pieces literally, blades found in the goo that came out of internals...... I could have waiting a minute or so and would have never fired another shot, but not really in my nature........

Now the question is this, Should one use something like a Raptor or Gen I or super premium soft to backup, or followup? I did this time, but thinking this through further, it is just a horrible, stupid ass thought. If life was perfect and every shot was perfect, and if there were no variables to contend with in the field you might get by with it, but sooner or later it will get your ass in a serious bind and or worse............

The only way to solve issues after the fact, or to backup possible issues is with a properly designed SOLID. After the dance begins, you don't know what is going to be presented? Rear end most likely, and you will need extreme penetration for that, you will have brush to contend with more than likely, and as stated, A Raptor Hates Brush..... so you can't depend on that scenario at all. The very best and most reliable and most consistent problem solving bullet is a well designed SOLID, END OF STORY.............. There are two Solids that Rate the best solids ever designed or made in the history of hunting/shooting....... CEB #13 Solid and the New (my new, over 10 years ago) North Fork Solid....... that is the TOP END PREMIUM SOLIDS ever made. I know, I have tested every solid ever made and ever solid ever imagined.......

If is pure BS to state Solids are not required any more because various premiums are so good, that is a stupid, ignorant statement...........Even as good as a Raptor is, it Ain't That good........

My short Answer @calling4life is no, Raptor or no other Trauma Inflicting bullet is suitable for Backup, or Followup .............

 

[michael458]

but I’m curious of your level of experience and thoughts on the Hammer HHTs compared to these Raptors?

Maybe its time to talk about Generation I Copper HP Bullets........... In the beginning, 2006-2007 I was working with Lehigh, big copper Hollow Points.......... Today, the best examples of Generation I bullets are CEB Maximus and the Hammer Bullets....... both of these are superb, they are far superior to any conventional expanding premium, more tissue destruction, and deep penetration similar to Raptors.
But the behavior and terminal performance is a bit different than the Raptor, which we will define exactly. But first lets look at some history of these bullets and how some of these developed.

It was 2007 when I was first introduced to what I call Generation I Copper Hollow Point CNC Bullets. It was by necessity with my endeavors into my .500 caliber rifles. When I developed the first 50 B&M true .500 caliber, there was only handgun bullets available. For my purposes these would not suffice. There were many avenues traveled looking for true buffalo, elephant ++ Bullets, and in 2007 we began a journey in search of adequate bullets for the missions I had in mind.

Through JD Jones, I was introduced to Lehigh Bullets, this was when Fricke was just getting started in the bullet business, guided by JD. JD had Fricke make several designs of .500 caliber bullets, both for JD and myself. We were looking hard at Solids, that was at the top of my list. I had already used and tested some of the Round Nose copper solids made by Lehigh, and this resulted in several failures of the bullets tracking straight in several plains game species tested in 2006. I had bullets that veered 90 degrees off in eland, kudu and zebra....... We went to work on several flat nose designs and ended up with a .500 caliber 510 gr Copper Solid very similar to the Barnes Flat Nose solids. This was very successful in 2007 on a couple of elephants and several buffalo. We also had worked on some copper Hollow Points, for this test I used a very light 426 gr Copper HP and it was successful on buffalo, but I would say not outstanding. Some "Petals" sheared, some did not, and at this time I did not fully understand how things really should work, and at this time, no one else did either, and I mean, NO ONE...........

Test after test after test was conducted before going to the field, hundreds on top of hundreds of round fired and studied for the next couple of years. JD and I had Fricke make a 380 gr copper HP, 426 gr Copper HP, and a 470 gr Copper HP........in .500 caliber. I was still caught up in "Conventional Wisdom", the light bulb had not yet started to come on when it came to these bullets and how they worked. At higher velocity the petals (referred to here as petals, they were peeling off, and not penetrating outward like the Raptor blades) were shedding, shearing off, and staying inside or very close to the center wound channel. Well, Conventional Wisdom has told us all our shooting lives that this is a bullet that is coming apart, and therefore it had to be a FAILURE... Right? Any bullet that looses weight, comes apart, just can't be terminally effective, our Conventional Wisdom has taught us this since we took that first shot with a 22 long rifle when we were kids. So it has to be so! Except, in the back of my mind I was actually seeing something different in the test work, but it had not dawned on me just yet.

Lots of conversation with JD about these petals shearing off, so we had some annealed copper 380 gr .500 bullets made, and then the standard copper bullets we had been working with. I conducted tests with both in a 50 B&M Super Short, which is basically a 1.65 inch WSM case for a WSSM bolt gun, would be like a 500 S&W cartridge in a 16 inch bolt gun.

I gave these a good workout at different velocities to see if the petals would hold, and until I put them in 500 MDM they did for the most part, perfect Conventional Expanding bullets....

Then when I tried in 500 MDM at higher velocities I noticed increase trauma and medium destruction, and increase of course in penetration....... But I was mostly looking at the petals and if they shed/shear or not..... so the light was beginning to try and come on.......

And going back to a test with a standard copper that was not annealed looking at its performance...

At lower velocity and shed/shear I was getting better terminal performane.............??

Testing the 470 Copper HP the light was getting brighter and I was thinking I was beginning to understand some new concepts, some new ways to think about Terminal Performance............

Finally in .500 caliber, and 500 MDM I was off to Australia to shoot buffalo, test bullets, and the first outing for a 500 MDM. On this outing I had several bullets I was looking at, but Primary was a 470 gr Copper HP from Lehigh, and backed by the 510 gr Barnes Type FN Solids. Test after test I was seeing over all penetration, more than any conventional buffalo bullets I had tested in 458 caliber? Yes, "Petals" were shearing off, Petals were staying inside wound channel from 8-16 inches of penetration, the remaining solid kept on going to 24-25 inches total..... If I considered the .458 500 Swift A Frame a buffalo bullet and it penetrated to 24 inches in the same test medium, then this .500 caliber 470 Copper HP should also be a buffalo bullet, Right?

While the light bulb was beginning to flicker, it had not yet illuminated properly, and I was letting "Conventional Wisdom" take a front seat. When I arrived in Australia and met Paul, I just knew I did not have enough bullet with this 470 HP....... before the first shot was fired, I had convinced myself that I would go back to the drawing board and design a 500 gr, maybe even a 525 gr HP......... I was convinced of this. I just knew this 470 HP was not going to work, and not be enough bullet for buffalo of any sort............... I was convinced of this, I had allowed Conventional Wisdom to slip back in, whispering sweet nothings in my ear................Dumbass........ LOL.............

Next morning after arrival, we had not gone far and there was a good old bull just hanging around some shady spot. I hit him first shot with the 470 HP on the shoulder, probably no more than 20 yards, he turned around 180 degrees, but could not run, just stood, quivered a bit, and I slammed him with a 510 FN Solid and it was show over. At this range, the 470 had sheared petals, and had exited far side, from animal reactions, it was devastating, and from investigations after photos of course, the bull was torn to pieces, wound channel was wicked...... and the Light Bulb came on, it was getting to full Illumination, and I started to believe I had plenty of bullet and that this shearing of petals was not a bad thing, but actually an excellent behavior for superior terminal performance. And this continued to prove itself for the next 15 + buffalo before I switched rifles over to a 458 B&M to give it a workout as well.............. My first use of Gen I bullets was a great success.

Some continuing work showed that when these copper hollow points sheared petals, they stayed close to center wound channel, they did not radiate away from center, and they did not all peel and shear at the same time, but along the wound channel. I believe this helps cause a wicked transfer of trauma and tissue destruction, center channel is just torn to pieces and far far exceeds anything a conventional expanding bullet can achieve, and you have the added bonus of that remaining slug to continue to penetrate and most of the time will exit. It is a different terminal behavior than the Raptor. Which is better? I have a hard time saying to be honest, both are just incredible, for me I favor the Raptor, but I have had a hell of a lot of experience with those and always successful. But I would never feel like I didn't have a good bullet if I had CEB Maximus or the Hammers...... I believe today, with what I know is out there, these two are the best Copper Gen I you can get, I would happily go anywhere with either and have 100% or more confidence in either.

 

[michael458]

It was 2010 when I started working with Dan at CEB to get a better solid, this work was intensive and time consuming as well, we were shooting and testing bullets each week for nearly a year to get it right. Immediately after the Solids we went to work on the matching Raptors, this consumed all my test time, range time, and field time for several years. I never got back to the Gen I bullets, and always for my personal use I chose Raptors. But the last few years I have tested a few Maximus all good, all success and there are a few that would fit in with my needs with certain cartridges that are just as good or better for some purposes than the Raptor, in particular one case being a 358 MPG... a very good 160 Maximus in .358 caliber for that little cartridge, is perfect.

In February 2022 a long time close friend asked to get some work done with a 404 Hammer in .458 caliber. We did pressure work in both 458 Winchester rather extensively, I had a NEW Wonderful Winchester M70 that had the barrel trimmed to proper length of 20 inches, and then I believe we did some test pressures in 458 Lott as well.... If I recall, have to go back to data to confirm that. Anyway I did the Terminal tests with 458 B&M and 458 B&M EX......... and was VERY impressed with the performance......... Excellent Gen I performance with petals shearing along wound channel, doing massive and extreme trauma and plenty of penetration for buffalo. These are great bullets. And I declared to the group that these were indeed Buffalo Capable.............

 

[steve white]

Well, hush my mouth! Thank you for the photo evidence of what those petals can do in and of themselves. I am rather puzzled by the entrance wound to the croc. It almost appears that the petals came off before impact. I suppose some tissue just got blown away, but what an explosive pattern outward, by petals big enough to shred things much deeper than just the surface. I had wondered if the petals could cut through ribs, or if they were more inside before detaching. Very interesting trauma, almost like a solid PLUS a load of buckshot at the same time? A picture is worth 1000 words.

 

[TucsonFX4]

Thanks @michael458 ! I truly appreciate not just the work you have done, but taking so much time to share the info.

 

[ldmay375]

I have followed Michael's testing from at least 2009. Incredibly research, the different types bullets fired, and the numbers of bullets fired, and tested in test media and the large game they are intended, are astonishing.

From in bleachers, that was following the 458 Winchester Hammer testing, the 458 Lott also had pretty extensive pressure tests. The Hammer, North Fork 350 grain Expanding Cup Point Solids, Lehigh 380 Flat Nose Solid (along with penetration test), CEB 325 grain Solid, Swift 400 grain A-Frame, and others.

Michael's testing certainly educated me, and eventually opened my eyes to the non-conventional bullet performance. Definitely non-conventional, because who in their right mind wants an "expanding lighter weight bullet that comes apart", or lighter weight solids of "low sectional density". The proper design and construction can certainly provide consistent results above the usually accepted "normal" weights of conventional bullets.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

300 grain A-Frame at 2450 from a .375 H&H 24" barrel using H4350. With H4350 I don't care how hot it is in October, it will still launch at 2450.

And when they finally quit making the A-Frame, I'll finally get around to coming up with Plan B.

@Puddle
If'n I want bone crushing penetration I will just load my Whelen up with 310gn Woodleigh rnsp or solids using H4350 to 2,455 fps that was developed in summer.
If'n I need more power, performance and penetration I will just stay home because it will be to big for my frying pan
Bob

 

[CoElkHunter]

@Puddle
If'n I want bone crushing penetration I will just load my Whelen up with 310gn Woodleigh rnsp or solids using H4350 to 2,455 fps that was developed in summer.
If'n I need more power, performance and penetration I will just stay home because it will be to big for my frying pan
Bob

I'll bet you could get 2,600fps with that load if you just tried harder? Use a different powder and compress the sh** out of it. We'll wait for your results. LOL

 

[michael458]

I am rather puzzled by the entrance wound to the croc. It almost appears that the petals came off before impact. I suppose some tissue just got blown away, but what an explosive pattern outward,

Yes, it was a sight no joke. It was explosive, there was no brain in the cavity, it was completely gone, and the jaw was even broken as well, it is an mini grenade type action when those blades shear all at once.

The next year I shot a hippo in the brain with a 458 B&M 458 caliber 250 gr Raptor at 2900 fps, it was 150 yards from the water, and I did not have time or situation to change the load, we were looking for crocodile along Kariba and came up with this big boy to our right sleeping, we were in between him and the water...........He stood up at 15 yards, little groggy and had not placed us exactly, I put the 250 Raptor at 2900 fps between the eyes and it was DRT on the spot. Closer inspection brain matter had squirted out both sides through the ear holes for 6 feet both directions, the skull in the rear was completely broken and busted, I have the skull here now, and had to be glued back together in the rear....... Bullet was recovered about 6-8 inches behind the skull...... the biggest hippo I had ever taken.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Ok, lets dive in and see if we can help...........


No, not saying anything, other than the remaining solid which is similar to a broken beer bottle full wadcutter bullet, continues to penetrate dead straight, when it exits, it also cuts a full wadcutter type hole in the tissue, and the hide too, this hole will not close back. This remaining sharp edged wadcutter solid penetrates deeper than any conventional expanding bullet is capable of. How much penetration do you need? I am a penetration nut, I want exits, I want blood flowing out both ends, I want air being sucked into chest cavity and I want that extra trauma inflicted.

OK, lets assume we are talking buffalo, lets assume we are talking proper caliber, lets say 458 Caliber. Which I have a good deal of experience with. Most all the buffalo I have shot with 458s, 500 Swifts, 450 Swifts, 500 Woodleighs.....I have recovered in the hide far side.... full chest cavity penetration, so that is good, nothing came up completely short....... All were dead, some expired without another shot fired, others were a running gun battle regardless of first shot being more than adequate (buffalo are just that way sometimes)........ Damage to tissue of course was adequate.. and there were no surprises to the amount of tissue destruction.

Buffalo I have shot with 420 Raptors in various 458s have been devasting. You can see it in animal reactions to taking the first shot. I have recovered very few Raptor remaining bullets. I recovered one from a cow buffalo shot frontal, passed through the heart, other internals, completely through the stomach and contents and found just past the stomach, about 4 feet or more.

Now, lets review what I said above on just exactly how a Raptor works..........

After Terminal penetration begins at around 1.5-2 inches the blades shear all at the same time, this is an explosive event, if you look at video of gel, you can see this effect. Considering larger bore Raptors with larger blades, at shear 6 blades surround the remaining broken beer bottle sharp edge wadcutter bullet, as penetration continues these blades begin to move away from center bullet in a star pattern, for 3-5 inches after shear and as tissue expands away from the bullet, these blades slice and dice that tissue destroying it, so it does not contract back around the wound channel, the wound channel for that area has been expanded greatly by this slice and dice of the blades. As penetration continues the blades continue to move away from center, and they become slice and dice projectiles on the own, they continue through surrounding organs, vessels, and any other tissue they come in contact with. In buffalo these blades will always be caught up mostly in internal organs, careful observation you will find them in the skinning shed in the goop and slop removed. Remaining center bullet will almost always exit broadside. There is tremendous blood loss with Raptors because of the blades, damage to internals is massive. In smaller animals, 200 lbs or less, I have seen larger bore blades EXIT the far side, anything from 8-12 inches from center bullet.

Remember the heart shot cow I mentioned above....? This is the heart.......

View attachment 603110

This is what the remaining 420 Raptor bullet penetrated completely in the stomach, found on the far side end to end of the stomach.........

View attachment 603111

This is the recovered remaining 420 Raptor from that cow buffalo......

View attachment 603116

In the test work we set up what we call "Witness Cards" inside the test medium, a mixture of wet news print and layers of catalog/magazine material. These Witness cards are laminated card stock. At various depths of penetration they gave us a good view of what was happening with the bullet and how they behaved......... This is a Witness card placed at 4 inches inside the test medium with the 458 420 Raptor. You can see the blades surrounding the center bullet.

View attachment 603114

Another Raptor test with 416 shows the same......

View attachment 603115

A Witness card at 2 inches with 9.3 caliber Raptor.....

View attachment 603105

A Happy Halloween Pumpkin from CEB Advert.......

View attachment 603117

Someone sent this photo of a buffalo heart with a Raptor, you can see the blades slicing ....

View attachment 603119

Someone else sent this shot of a Raptor ...

View attachment 603118

I shot this crocodile as he was jumping up to grab onto a bait, this is the top of the head, I kinda see a "Star Pattern" here...... also this was a 420 Raptor in 458...Yes, the Taxidermist did a pretty good job of sorting this out.

View attachment 603112

Little hard to tell, but this is a buffal heart nearly cleaved in two by a 450 Raptor in 500 MDM......

View attachment 603113

Others sent these photos of Raptors in Tissue.....

View attachment 603109

View attachment 603108

This is an eland heart with a 350 Raptor in 500 MDM at 2800 fps 50 yard impact....

View attachment 603106

View attachment 603107

And I can go on and on with more of the same......... A Conventional Premium is great, it is what we had, and they worked fine, I used them, shot many a critter with them in various calibers and cartridges.... all with success............. But never, not ever have I seen devastating effects that a Raptor can inflict with any other bullet ever fired. There is no upper end to velocity that we can handle in a shoulder fired firearm, the more velocity, the deadlier these things are, and the more of everything you get, including penetration. In any Aqueous Material, test medium or animal tissue, these bullets behave and perform exactly the same, BORINGLY SO, time after time after time.

Tissue destruction up front is horrendous, massive entry wounds similar to massive exit wounds you may have seen with some destructive bullets on deer and such, fist size entrances where those blades shear, and always a caliber size wadcutter hole on the exit end. Some guys that never inspected internal damage thought the bullet had "Blown Up" on entry, and penciled through on exit....... that is until they started opening chest cavities and then it was a different story, I have not heard one of those stories in many years now, only in the beginning..............

Its up to you, if you don' t believe or have too much love for the old days, that is fine, I too used great conventional bullets at one time, because it was the best we had. Those days are gone, we do indeed have better tools at hand...... I am going to use the best tool available to me, to insure and enhance my success in the field. Others have to make that choice for themselves......... Hope this helps some, and I apologize if I misunderstood the meaning of a prior post..............

Oh, and i am not finished, this is continued, I intend to give you a complete story, just I am a bit long winded sometimes, and I type rather well.........HEH

@michael458

Ok, lets dive in and see if we can help...........


No, not saying anything, other than the remaining solid which is similar to a broken beer bottle full wadcutter bullet, continues to penetrate dead straight, when it exits, it also cuts a full wadcutter type hole in the tissue, and the hide too, this hole will not close back. This remaining sharp edged wadcutter solid penetrates deeper than any conventional expanding bullet is capable of. How much penetration do you need? I am a penetration nut, I want exits, I want blood flowing out both ends, I want air being sucked into chest cavity and I want that extra trauma inflicted.

OK, lets assume we are talking buffalo, lets assume we are talking proper caliber, lets say 458 Caliber. Which I have a good deal of experience with. Most all the buffalo I have shot with 458s, 500 Swifts, 450 Swifts, 500 Woodleighs.....I have recovered in the hide far side.... full chest cavity penetration, so that is good, nothing came up completely short....... All were dead, some expired without another shot fired, others were a running gun battle regardless of first shot being more than adequate (buffalo are just that way sometimes)........ Damage to tissue of course was adequate.. and there were no surprises to the amount of tissue destruction.

Buffalo I have shot with 420 Raptors in various 458s have been devasting. You can see it in animal reactions to taking the first shot. I have recovered very few Raptor remaining bullets. I recovered one from a cow buffalo shot frontal, passed through the heart, other internals, completely through the stomach and contents and found just past the stomach, about 4 feet or more.

Now, lets review what I said above on just exactly how a Raptor works..........

After Terminal penetration begins at around 1.5-2 inches the blades shear all at the same time, this is an explosive event, if you look at video of gel, you can see this effect. Considering larger bore Raptors with larger blades, at shear 6 blades surround the remaining broken beer bottle sharp edge wadcutter bullet, as penetration continues these blades begin to move away from center bullet in a star pattern, for 3-5 inches after shear and as tissue expands away from the bullet, these blades slice and dice that tissue destroying it, so it does not contract back around the wound channel, the wound channel for that area has been expanded greatly by this slice and dice of the blades. As penetration continues the blades continue to move away from center, and they become slice and dice projectiles on the own, they continue through surrounding organs, vessels, and any other tissue they come in contact with. In buffalo these blades will always be caught up mostly in internal organs, careful observation you will find them in the skinning shed in the goop and slop removed. Remaining center bullet will almost always exit broadside. There is tremendous blood loss with Raptors because of the blades, damage to internals is massive. In smaller animals, 200 lbs or less, I have seen larger bore blades EXIT the far side, anything from 8-12 inches from center bullet.

Remember the heart shot cow I mentioned above....? This is the heart.......

View attachment 603110

This is what the remaining 420 Raptor bullet penetrated completely in the stomach, found on the far side end to end of the stomach.........

View attachment 603111

This is the recovered remaining 420 Raptor from that cow buffalo......

View attachment 603116

In the test work we set up what we call "Witness Cards" inside the test medium, a mixture of wet news print and layers of catalog/magazine material. These Witness cards are laminated card stock. At various depths of penetration they gave us a good view of what was happening with the bullet and how they behaved......... This is a Witness card placed at 4 inches inside the test medium with the 458 420 Raptor. You can see the blades surrounding the center bullet.

View attachment 603114

Another Raptor test with 416 shows the same......

View attachment 603115

A Witness card at 2 inches with 9.3 caliber Raptor.....

View attachment 603105

A Happy Halloween Pumpkin from CEB Advert.......

View attachment 603117

Someone sent this photo of a buffalo heart with a Raptor, you can see the blades slicing ....

View attachment 603119

Someone else sent this shot of a Raptor ...

View attachment 603118

I shot this crocodile as he was jumping up to grab onto a bait, this is the top of the head, I kinda see a "Star Pattern" here...... also this was a 420 Raptor in 458...Yes, the Taxidermist did a pretty good job of sorting this out.

View attachment 603112

Little hard to tell, but this is a buffal heart nearly cleaved in two by a 450 Raptor in 500 MDM......

View attachment 603113

Others sent these photos of Raptors in Tissue.....

View attachment 603109

View attachment 603108

This is an eland heart with a 350 Raptor in 500 MDM at 2800 fps 50 yard impact....

View attachment 603106

View attachment 603107

And I can go on and on with more of the same......... A Conventional Premium is great, it is what we had, and they worked fine, I used them, shot many a critter with them in various calibers and cartridges.... all with success............. But never, not ever have I seen devastating effects that a Raptor can inflict with any other bullet ever fired. There is no upper end to velocity that we can handle in a shoulder fired firearm, the more velocity, the deadlier these things are, and the more of everything you get, including penetration. In any Aqueous Material, test medium or animal tissue, these bullets behave and perform exactly the same, BORINGLY SO, time after time after time.

Tissue destruction up front is horrendous, massive entry wounds similar to massive exit wounds you may have seen with some destructive bullets on deer and such, fist size entrances where those blades shear, and always a caliber size wadcutter hole on the exit end. Some guys that never inspected internal damage thought the bullet had "Blown Up" on entry, and penciled through on exit....... that is until they started opening chest cavities and then it was a different story, I have not heard one of those stories in many years now, only in the beginning..............

Its up to you, if you don' t believe or have too much love for the old days, that is fine, I too used great conventional bullets at one time, because it was the best we had. Those days are gone, we do indeed have better tools at hand...... I am going to use the best tool available to me, to insure and enhance my success in the field. Others have to make that choice for themselves......... Hope this helps some, and I apologize if I misunderstood the meaning of a prior post..............

Oh, and i am not finished, this is continued, I intend to give you a complete story, just I am a bit long winded sometimes, and I type rather well.........HEH

@michael458
Not trying to be a smart arse but if'n the nose is that frangible when contacting twigs and stuff how does the raptor perform when it contacts major bones such as the femur or is it primarily designed for body shots.
Just asking for a friend. They are available in Australia in limited calibres but they are extremely expensive.
Bob