Article on heavier vs lighter for caliber bullet penetration

[michael458]

how does the raptor perform when it contacts major bones such as the femur or is it primarily designed for body shots.

The blades shear at 1.5 or so inches of penetration, and of course if the bullet contacts heavy bone even before shear, the blades will shear anyway, that remaining solid crunches and munches bone to pieces, it busts bone up like a big hammer and keeps on going. Make no mistake, its not just a body shot type bullet, its rips things to pieces, then that remaining solid bust bone or anything else that gets in its way at that point, massively destructive............

This is an oryx I shot on point of shoulder, bone and everything else was massively destroyed.....
DRT....

This bullet recovered from buffalo pt of the shoulder shot, bones were crunched to pieces on the buffalo left front, it could not support itself on that side, massive trauma inflicted, and the bullet does not look damaged at all, and found blades in the goo from the chest cavity.........

Raptors do much much better on heavy bone than any conventional I have seen in the same scenario...... and they do better than copper bullets as well.....

 

[Hunting Hitman]

The blades shear at 1.5 or so inches of penetration, and of course if the bullet contacts heavy bone even before shear, the blades will shear anyway, that remaining solid crunches and munches bone to pieces, it busts bone up like a big hammer and keeps on going. Make no mistake, its not just a body shot type bullet, its rips things to pieces, then that remaining solid bust bone or anything else that gets in its way at that point, massively destructive............

This is an oryx I shot on point of shoulder, bone and everything else was massively destroyed.....
DRT....

View attachment 603921

This bullet recovered from buffalo pt of the shoulder shot, bones were crunched to pieces on the buffalo left front, it could not support itself on that side, massive trauma inflicted, and the bullet does not look damaged at all, and found blades in the goo from the chest cavity.........

View attachment 603922

Raptors do much much better on heavy bone than any conventional I have seen in the same scenario...... and they do better than copper bullets as well.....

@michael458 ,
When developing a load for the 458 Lott, I decided to go with the CB 500 grain solid and the 470 grain Raptor.

Do you recommend establishing the fps on the solid bullet or do you use the expandable speed and hope the solid hits at the same point?

HH

 

[michael458]

Do you recommend establishing the fps on the solid bullet or do you use the expandable speed and hope the solid hits at the same point?

Weight equal Pressure....... Develop your load for the 500 Solid first........ Then you can use exact Same Load for the 470 Raptor, they should be in the same hole at 50 yards....... They are the same bullet in bearing surface and length...... Since there is some less weight, there will also be less pressure. You can go up a grain or two from your 500 gr load, increase velocity some, this normally puts the Raptor about 1/2 inch higher POI than the Solid at 50.

Below is some selected data from different cartridges I have done in the past with Solids and the Matching Raptors you will see what I was talking about;

I have never worked with any rifle or big bore cartridge that the Solid and Raptor did not work the way it shows above, and never had any rifle that would not shoot the same POI at 50 yards with them............ and that has been quite a few rifles and cartridges over the years........ Most Recently I set up a friends two Winchester M70 African Edition 458 Lotts for him, with 450/420 and he has since taken several buffalo with those loads......... And there have been many many more..........

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Weight equal Pressure....... Develop your load for the 500 Solid first........ Then you can use exact Same Load for the 470 Raptor, they should be in the same hole at 50 yards....... They are the same bullet in bearing surface and length...... Since there is some less weight, there will also be less pressure. You can go up a grain or two from your 500 gr load, increase velocity some, this normally puts the Raptor about 1/2 inch higher POI than the Solid at 50.

Below is some selected data from different cartridges I have done in the past with Solids and the Matching Raptors you will see what I was talking about;

I have never worked with any rifle or big bore cartridge that the Solid and Raptor did not work the way it shows above, and never had any rifle that would not shoot the same POI at 50 yards with them............ and that has been quite a few rifles and cartridges over the years........ Most Recently I set up a friends two Winchester M70 African Edition 458 Lotts for him, with 450/420 and he has since taken several buffalo with those loads......... And there have been many many more..........

Thanks Michael. Will get going on these loads shortly and report back.

HH

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The blades shear at 1.5 or so inches of penetration, and of course if the bullet contacts heavy bone even before shear, the blades will shear anyway, that remaining solid crunches and munches bone to pieces, it busts bone up like a big hammer and keeps on going. Make no mistake, its not just a body shot type bullet, its rips things to pieces, then that remaining solid bust bone or anything else that gets in its way at that point, massively destructive............

This is an oryx I shot on point of shoulder, bone and everything else was massively destroyed.....
DRT....

View attachment 603921

This bullet recovered from buffalo pt of the shoulder shot, bones were crunched to pieces on the buffalo left front, it could not support itself on that side, massive trauma inflicted, and the bullet does not look damaged at all, and found blades in the goo from the chest cavity.........

View attachment 603922

Raptors do much much better on heavy bone than any conventional I have seen in the same scenario...... and they do better than copper bullets as well.....

@michael458
Thank you
Bob

 

[Cheesehead]

I see that CEB makes the Raptors for a wide variety of calibers. Does anyone have experience using them on smaller (.308 and below) calibers where the typically loadings are already light for caliber in comparison to these larger bore calibers? In other words, typically, smaller caliber rifles use lower sectional density bullets, for whatever reason. Do bullets like the raptors still perform the same in these situations? Or is there a point of diminishing returns where the portion that remains after the blades shear off is just too light?

 

[Tgood1]

i use the raptors in a 7x57 (120 grain i believe). Im a believer in them. Amazed at the amount of destruction to organs. Quick clean kills. And i keep a few loaded backwards for the solid effect if needed for a follow up in thick stuff. Never needed them yet

 

[Altitude sickness]

3 CEB solids first then taped the holes. Then shot 3 raptors. .416 Taylor

Then I adjusted the scope and shot one raptor and one solid

 

[michael458]

Does anyone have experience using them on smaller (.308 and below) calibers where the typically loadings are already light for caliber in comparison to these larger bore calibers?

I only deal with two calibers at .308 and below, 223, and use the 50 Raptor for my loads. 308 caliber I have 300 BLK, 30/30, 7.62X40, 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester, I use exclusively 100 FB Raptors in those guns...... I have had a couple of friends and one of my sons use the 50 Raptor in 223 on deer and it was very successful in all cases, all one round and down, and from what I am told about as devastating as it gets for the caliber.

This 100 Flat Base Raptor on the other hand has been responsible for at least 125 deer over the years. I don't hunt deer, but I introduced 5-6 of my pals to this bullet and load in 300 BLK, 7.62X40, and 308 Winchester. I have never had a report back of a deer taking more than 5 steps. In 300 BLK and 7.62X40 it is an incredible cartridge/bullet for young hunters, I know of several that have been very successful using this. We had one 10 yr old in NC that took a decent black bear with 300 BLK and the 100 Raptor, bang flop DRT on the spot, that was a happy young hunter for sure. I had 3 buddies a couple of years ago go to TX on one of the big expensive deer hunts, all three used loads I did for them in 308 Winchester with the 100 Raptors, all took their Trophy deer, then shot a lot of does, and even some pigs as well..... all DRT......... For anything I would use 308 calibers for, the 100 Raptors more than do the job and do it very well.......... I really have no other need for another bullet in that caliber. I also buy in bulk both 50 Raptor for 223 and 100 Raptor for all .308 caliber needs........

My last batch of 100 Raptors for 308 caliber;

And 223..........

Do bullets like the raptors still perform the same in these situations?

Smaller caliber Raptors enhance terminal performance to another level over conventionals, the same as with the big bores. If not, I would not invest in them. With smaller caliber Raptors the "Blades" do not travel as far from center as with larger calibers, they remain closer to center, but still slice and dice tissue in a star pattern around center. Center bullet still continues to penetrate same as larger calibers. There have been no recovered 50 Raptors from deer and no 100 Raptors from deer or even the bear, those exited....... Now, I am sure some of these guys did frontal shots, and those would not exit of course, but most of my guys are not bullet diggers...... all broadsides that I have been told about exited....... or even severe angled shot.........

My Son used his Winchester M70 308 last fall for this deer on our farm here in SC........His shot was not great, little far back, but none the less it was one and down..........

These boys have not learned the fine art of photos with their rifles....... The rifle must be prominent in the shots............. Kids...... I swear............And no field photos, had to bring it home and in the back of the damn truck ...................

My Daughter also loves to hunt, When SSK was still in business, I had Brian build her a nice little Winchester M70 7.62X40 for her use in the field....... This is a 300 BLK on Steroids if you are not familiar with it, and in its 18 inch barrel it shoots 100 Raptors at over 2800 fps........ She has yet to tag out with it, but has taken it out several times..............

 

[colorado]

Someone on another forum did a bunch of testing through water filled milk jugs seperated by plywood of various 375 H&H 300g bullets They included the 300g A-Frame, 300g Partition, 300g TSX and finally the 350g Woodleigh SP (before they came out with the HD SP). The A-Frame and TSX performed very well but the 350g Woodleigh out performed them all with regards to both expansion and penetration. Just one data point. All of these bullets are phenomenal choices.

 

[Boone66]

I only deal with two calibers at .308 and below, 223, and use the 50 Raptor for my loads. 308 caliber I have 300 BLK, 30/30, 7.62X40, 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester, I use exclusively 100 FB Raptors in those guns...... I have had a couple of friends and one of my sons use the 50 Raptor in 223 on deer and it was very successful in all cases, all one round and down, and from what I am told about as devastating as it gets for the caliber.

This 100 Flat Base Raptor on the other hand has been responsible for at least 125 deer over the years. I don't hunt deer, but I introduced 5-6 of my pals to this bullet and load in 300 BLK, 7.62X40, and 308 Winchester. I have never had a report back of a deer taking more than 5 steps. In 300 BLK and 7.62X40 it is an incredible cartridge/bullet for young hunters, I know of several that have been very successful using this. We had one 10 yr old in NC that took a decent black bear with 300 BLK and the 100 Raptor, bang flop DRT on the spot, that was a happy young hunter for sure. I had 3 buddies a couple of years ago go to TX on one of the big expensive deer hunts, all three used loads I did for them in 308 Winchester with the 100 Raptors, all took their Trophy deer, then shot a lot of does, and even some pigs as well..... all DRT......... For anything I would use 308 calibers for, the 100 Raptors more than do the job and do it very well.......... I really have no other need for another bullet in that caliber. I also buy in bulk both 50 Raptor for 223 and 100 Raptor for all .308 caliber needs........

My last batch of 100 Raptors for 308 caliber;

And 223..........

Smaller caliber Raptors enhance terminal performance to another level over conventionals, the same as with the big bores. If not, I would not invest in them. With smaller caliber Raptors the "Blades" do not travel as far from center as with larger calibers, they remain closer to center, but still slice and dice tissue in a star pattern around center. Center bullet still continues to penetrate same as larger calibers. There have been no recovered 50 Raptors from deer and no 100 Raptors from deer or even the bear, those exited....... Now, I am sure some of these guys did frontal shots, and those would not exit of course, but most of my guys are not bullet diggers...... all broadsides that I have been told about exited....... or even severe angled shot.........

My Son used his Winchester M70 308 last fall for this deer on our farm here in SC........His shot was not great, little far back, but none the less it was one and down..........

These boys have not learned the fine art of photos with their rifles....... The rifle must be prominent in the shots............. Kids...... I swear............And no field photos, had to bring it home and in the back of the damn truck ...................

My Daughter also loves to hunt, When SSK was still in business, I had Brian build her a nice little Winchester M70 7.62X40 for her use in the field....... This is a 300 BLK on Steroids if you are not familiar with it, and in its 18 inch barrel it shoots 100 Raptors at over 2800 fps........ She has yet to tag out with it, but has taken it out several times..............

What would be your suggested weight for a long distance 300 win mag?

 

[Altitude sickness]

This is amazing information. Thanks for the research and knowledge sharing.

 

[Aaron N]

@michael458 have to tested raptors on big cats? I’m curious if the blades would perform on lion and leopard

 

[michael458]

@michael458 have to tested raptors on big cats? I’m curious if the blades would perform on lion and leopard

No, I shot my lions before there was such a thing, I shot 3 lions all with 400 Swift A Frame 458 Winchester at 2325 fps, 24 years ago, leopard was a long time as well with 416 Remington 340 Woodliegh at 2500 fps or so..........

But, if I were leaving today I would be be taking Raptors, Wicked, deadly and rip cats to pieces.. inside anyway, don't want that hide damaged if you can help it........Without doubt a Raptor turn cats inside out.......

I am pretty sure that @PHOENIX PHIL used a 250 Raptor in his 458 B&M at 2900 fps, he didn't have any lion running off on him, I have the photos... LOL.......... I had another B&M Family member use his 458 B&M on lion with 420 Raptors and it was turned inside out, DRT, never twitched.........

If I were going with 458, I would use the 250 Socom Raptor........ 416 I would use the 225 LEver Raptor..... with talon tips of course....... Any of my 500s 300, 335, 350 Raptors would do fine...... .510 caliber that 350 Lever Raptor........... I am thinking lions with these......... Leopard.... you can get by with less of course, 120 lb cat, can get by with some less caliber..... but not 375....... we talking cats, not GD**n Rats.........

What would be your suggested weight for a long distance 300 win mag?

I really don't have a good answer for you, I am not long range sort of chap, 50 yards is a LONG way for me............. Animal...I recently recommended a 130 FB Raptor for elk size critters with 300 Winchester...... but long range, how long and what purpose? And I am just not your man for that sort of intel......Sorry.......

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

No, I shot my lions before there was such a thing, I shot 3 lions all with 400 Swift A Frame 458 Winchester at 2325 fps, 24 years ago, leopard was a long time as well with 416 Remington 340 Woodliegh at 2500 fps or so..........

But, if I were leaving today I would be be taking Raptors, Wicked, deadly and rip cats to pieces.. inside anyway, don't want that hide damaged if you can help it........Without doubt a Raptor turn cats inside out.......

I am pretty sure that @PHOENIX PHIL used a 250 Raptor in his 458 B&M at 2900 fps, he didn't have any lion running off on him, I have the photos... LOL.......... I had another B&M Family member use his 458 B&M on lion with 420 Raptors and it was turned inside out, DRT, never twitched.........

If I were going with 458, I would use the 250 Socom Raptor........ 416 I would use the 225 LEver Raptor..... with talon tips of course....... Any of my 500s 300, 335, 350 Raptors would do fine...... .510 caliber that 350 Lever Raptor........... I am thinking lions with these......... Leopard.... you can get by with less of course, 120 lb cat, can get by with some less caliber..... but not 375....... we talking cats, not GD**n Rats.........


I really don't have a good answer for you, I am not long range sort of chap, 50 yards is a LONG way for me............. Animal...I recently recommended a 130 FB Raptor for elk size critters with 300 Winchester...... but long range, how long and what purpose? And I am just not your man for that sort of intel......Sorry.......

That is correct, it was a lioness in 2016 if anyone wants to look back at hunt reports from late that year. She was an agitated girl to say the least that we had bumped a few times. It was a frontal shot on her brisket as she was laying down but head up.

On the shot her head just dropped down into a little depression in the sand, no other movement except one last tail twitch. We moved into position to take a second insurance shot from a broadside position. The second shot just passed through with no "thud" indicating a hit. The first shot had deflated her so nothing left to make that thud.

On recovery the amount of blood that came out of the mouth and was in that little depression in the sand was amazing. I was at the skinning shed when she was opened. A whole bunch of goo along with the heart came out of the chest cavity. The bullet did not pass through the heart, but as I recall at least one of the blades did.

It was an exciting hunt, but it ended definitively with that first shot.

 

[Cheesehead]

I only deal with two calibers at .308 and below, 223, and use the 50 Raptor for my loads. 308 caliber I have 300 BLK, 30/30, 7.62X40, 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester, I use exclusively 100 FB Raptors in those guns...... I have had a couple of friends and one of my sons use the 50 Raptor in 223 on deer and it was very successful in all cases, all one round and down, and from what I am told about as devastating as it gets for the caliber.

This 100 Flat Base Raptor on the other hand has been responsible for at least 125 deer over the years. I don't hunt deer, but I introduced 5-6 of my pals to this bullet and load in 300 BLK, 7.62X40, and 308 Winchester. I have never had a report back of a deer taking more than 5 steps. In 300 BLK and 7.62X40 it is an incredible cartridge/bullet for young hunters, I know of several that have been very successful using this. We had one 10 yr old in NC that took a decent black bear with 300 BLK and the 100 Raptor, bang flop DRT on the spot, that was a happy young hunter for sure. I had 3 buddies a couple of years ago go to TX on one of the big expensive deer hunts, all three used loads I did for them in 308 Winchester with the 100 Raptors, all took their Trophy deer, then shot a lot of does, and even some pigs as well..... all DRT......... For anything I would use 308 calibers for, the 100 Raptors more than do the job and do it very well.......... I really have no other need for another bullet in that caliber. I also buy in bulk both 50 Raptor for 223 and 100 Raptor for all .308 caliber needs........

My last batch of 100 Raptors for 308 caliber;

View attachment 604292

View attachment 604291

View attachment 604293

View attachment 604295

View attachment 604294

And 223..........

View attachment 604288

View attachment 604289

View attachment 604290



Smaller caliber Raptors enhance terminal performance to another level over conventionals, the same as with the big bores. If not, I would not invest in them. With smaller caliber Raptors the "Blades" do not travel as far from center as with larger calibers, they remain closer to center, but still slice and dice tissue in a star pattern around center. Center bullet still continues to penetrate same as larger calibers. There have been no recovered 50 Raptors from deer and no 100 Raptors from deer or even the bear, those exited....... Now, I am sure some of these guys did frontal shots, and those would not exit of course, but most of my guys are not bullet diggers...... all broadsides that I have been told about exited....... or even severe angled shot.........

My Son used his Winchester M70 308 last fall for this deer on our farm here in SC........His shot was not great, little far back, but none the less it was one and down..........

View attachment 604296

View attachment 604297

These boys have not learned the fine art of photos with their rifles....... The rifle must be prominent in the shots............. Kids...... I swear............And no field photos, had to bring it home and in the back of the damn truck ...................

My Daughter also loves to hunt, When SSK was still in business, I had Brian build her a nice little Winchester M70 7.62X40 for her use in the field....... This is a 300 BLK on Steroids if you are not familiar with it, and in its 18 inch barrel it shoots 100 Raptors at over 2800 fps........ She has yet to tag out with it, but has taken it out several times..............

Thank you for that detailed response, that is exactly the info I was looking for.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Michael, Thank you for your time and generosity. Sharing your proprietary, hard earned data.

 

[Rafiki]

In all fairness, I have never used CEB or similar designs. Peregrine comes to mind as being of a similar bullet philosophy. They may work great, just not my cup of tea.

I've taken buffalo with traditional bullets up to this point, Woodliegh and Hornady, but I decided to switch to Peregrines for an October trip. My impression was that the Weldcore over expanded but retained weight and the DGX lost a lot of weight.

All I've shot so far is paper with Peregrines, but everything I've read has been very positive. The VRG3's are in no way similar to a CEB Raptor or a TSX.

 

[michael458]

The VRG3's are in no way similar to a CEB Raptor

These expanding solid copper bullets are like the North Fork Expanding CPS that John and I worked on..... they are in a special category all to their own.......

Would anyone like to take a look at these? And some other "Super Bullets"...........????

 

[Altitude sickness]

absolutely