Another 458 Win Mag thread

[Forrest Halley]

@Riflecrank are you the guy from the other forum that has/had the mission of .458 WM +P?

 

[Riflecrank]

Forrest Halley,
I was RIP at the other forum.
Might have been the mission and .458 WM +P there.
I got tired of the anti-America there.

So now I am Riflecrank at another forum, same handle as here,
and it is the .458WM+ we speak of there.
Any .458 Winchester Magnum handload that exceeds 60,000 psi by 1 psi or more,
or exceeds COL of 3.340" by 0.001" or more,
is a .458WM+ handload.
Of course some simple .458 WinMag loads within CIP standard are .458 WM+ loads.

The mission has been completed, the crusades won, long ago.
Now it is called the SQUARE TABLE from whence the Knights of the .458 Winchester Magnum
sally forth.

 

[Riflecrank]

Or, set your .458 Lott barrel back by 0.090"
then rechamber with a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer to clean up the belt and lengthen throat.
Voila !
.458 Watts Express for 2.700" brass length in a 2.720" chamber length,
able to handle any and all .458 WM+ loads,
even those which might be excessive in a SAAMI .458 Lott.

 

[Riflecrank]

Found the February 1961 "Dope Bag."
This H. P. White Laboratory data was previously found in HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK of 1962 edition.
The way it read there, I thought he had gotten this on Nov.8, 1955.
Maybe not, may have come later, first published in early 1961 ?

That beloved HiVel#2 load was sourced from this table, it is load #2 here, not compressed.
Loads 3,4,5 are compressed.
The sixth load here is that factory load from WRAC.

I would show the images from the 24hrcf photo gallery, but that is not permitted by this site.

Try looking at page 44 here:

American Rifleman 1961-02: Vol 109 Iss 2 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

American Rifleman 1961-02: Volume 109, Issue 2.Digitized from IA1534604-07.Previous issue: sim_american-rifleman_1961-01_109_1.Next issue:...

archive.org

 

[Riflecrank]

OK, that works.
Here is the original article on the .458 WinMag by Gen. Hatcher in the August 1956 AR,
pp. 24-27:

American Rifleman 1956-08: Vol 104 Iss 8 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

American Rifleman 1956-08: Volume 104, Issue 8.Digitized from IA1534604-07.Previous issue: sim_american-rifleman_1956-07_104_7.Next issue:...

archive.org

It was good in 1956 and even better now.

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

I have never posted here before but found a link from Riflecrank to this thread and found it most interesting.

i shoot heavy mediums and big bore DGRs and have decided to close out my hunting career with elephants. My experience is limited to Zim and I consider it fairly thin so far. One 50+ year old bull and 4 tuskless. So I won’t claim to be an expert on this topic as many others here are. I’ll be back to Zim in a few months after a couple more tuskless. Clearly my favorite hunt.

I’ll offer what I’ve found as to cartridges used, both in load development and in the field in Southern Africa. Two eles - including the bull and one tuskless - were shot with 500 NE 3” DRs loaded with CEB BBW #13 570 grain solids at 2160-2175 fps. Head and chest shots penetrating several feet in each case. Some of these shots were insurance, all penetrated straight line. One bullet recovered from the bull; except for the engraved rifling it could be reloaded and shot again. Frontal brain shot through skull and struck neck vertebrae. No deformation. No bullets recovered from the tuskless. Adequate performance as mentioned by others in this thread, as expected.

The next tuskless was shot with a Win M-70 404 Jeffery, CEB 400 grain BBW #13 at about 2475 FPS, 15 feet instrumental velocity. Shot through both shoulders and exited. Elephant went about 40 yds and dropped. A bit longer distance than the 2 prior eles, but dead is dead.

Last year, I used a 458 Win Mag made up on a Ruger Hawkeye African loaded with the CEB BBW #13 450 grain at 2400 fps corrected MV on one tuskless. Shot at a range of about 35 yds, it passed through near shoulder, exited just behind far shoulder. Dropped within less than 30 yds from where it was shot . Definite reaction to the shot, probably because of the impacted bones. I had decided on the 450 grain CEB rather than the 500 grain based on magazine COAL limitation and amount of powder compression I’m willing to accept.

Final tuskless last year was shot with a 500 grain CEB solid at 2400 fps MV loaded in a 460 G&A built on a Win M-70. Initial frontal brain shot at about 25 yds in dense brush, exited through the neck, elephant dropped at the shot. 3 insurance shots, all after the ele fell. One side brain pass through, 2 pass through chest shots. None of the bullets recovered.

The reason for the level of detail is that, after reading through the thread, I saw quite a bit of conjecture based on very variable experience with thick skinned game and on bias about specific cartridges, often apparently not well supported by actual experience. We all have our opinions.

I like the 458 WM, it’s worked for me in limited use, and the recoil is moderate for this class of cartridges. In part, because of the relatively smaller powder charges. With modern powders original ballistics are easily surpassed and in every way it equals the 458 Lott, in a standard length long action, to boot. IME by any objective measure the 458 WM equals and surpasses 470 NE ballistics. Any differences among these 3 cartridges seem imperceptible. All 3 are ballistically identical. I’ve shot a 458 Lott quite a bit before selling it years ago and can‘t see any useful place for it. If I want more that the 458 WM can offer, I’ll use the 460 G&A or my 450 Rigby Ruger RSM.

I still like the 500 NE 3”, so I’m putting one together on a Ruger #1. If I can get it finished in the next couple of weeks and can achieve 2150 fps, it’ll probably by my 2nd DGR for the upcoming Zim trip. Can’t get much more classic IMHO.

I ask for your forebearance and offer my apologies for such a long first post, but this thread is complementary to a long-running, detailed one on the 458 WM+ started and expertly sustained by Riflecrank on another forum, which has captured my attention. This topic is of significant interest to me and I see that there is much knowledge and experience on AH.com so I hope to learn much here.

 

[michael458]

So now I am Riflecrank at another forum, same handle as here,
and it is the .458WM+ we speak of there.

Hmmm.......... Does this possibly mean you would be considered a 458 Winchester fan? You know there are people that don't think the 458 Winchester is up to the task of doing the heavy lifting that might be required of it? What would make you so sure the 458 Winchester can handle the mission?

HEH.................

 

[hoytcanon]

I like .458's, big and small. They work. I currently have an M77 .458 Win, a M77 RSM Lott, an M77 MKII Stainless .450 Marlin, a No.1-S .45/70... I had many others in the past. They are perfect on bears and moose, and I would have plenty of confidence with them on most game... even the little .458's.

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

If I had to pick a large caliber DGR cartridge as a favorite, it’s the 404 Jeffery. Its efficacy and classical nostalgia make a great combo. I like the 458 WM and recognize its utility, but I don’t consider myself a “458 fan.” I like wildcats and find the performance of both the 450 Rigby and 460 G&A close to ideal for heavy, thick-skinned game, especially at close ranges. I have never shot the B&M cartridges but they seem to be a very innovative way to skin that DGR cat.

 

[Riflecrank]

6.5 wildcatter (aka Sir Khulu),
Good input.
I am thinking that even a CEB 400-gr brass FN at 2500 fps MV from any factory .458 WinMag rifle
will do the job on elephant, and a 404-gr Shock Hammer for same rifle at same velocity will do
anything else needing doing.
But, there is no such thing as overkill, so carry on !

 

[Riflecrank]

michael458, aka Doc M of McCourry Institute of Ballistics (MIB) and B&M fame:

You Sir are just stirring the pot, thanks.
And yes, my .458 B&M+ (.458 B&M with throat same as on the SAAMI .458 WinMag) will beat a SAAMI .458 Lott just like the .458 WM+ will.
Thanks again for developing the long-nosed .458/400-gr CEB Safari Solid.
My elephant bullet.
Glad you made it back from Finland.

 

[michael458]

You Sir are just stirring the pot, thanks.

HEH...... Yep....... Good to see you as always........... and on one of Our Favorite Subjects.... .458..........

Yes, I think that 400 Solid is a good addition to 458 caliber bullets, a Solid that will go with the many various excellent 400 gr Bullets available today, 404 Hammer being one of those.......I have not had time to work with it however .......... I still have 458 Winchester to do some shelf Ammo ...... Maybe I will make that 20 inch 458 Winchester of mine a 400 gr type of rifle............. Tune it for those weights...

BTW, some interesting work this week on B&M...... Sam and I are testing some very serious .308 caliber solids Tuesday. Might be worth tuning in on Wednesday for those results............. FYI.......

You know how good we love Solids here................

 

[Mountaineer]

Are those Cutting Edge solids safe for a double rifle?

 

[michael458]

Are those Cutting Edge solids safe for a double rifle?

A friend of mine that is a double rifle fanatic and I did a series of barrel strain tests with double rifles and for double rifles when the Cutting Edge Solids were being developed. The band configuration you see on the bullets is designed for low barrel strain and reduced pressures. Similar to the North Fork micro bands. We attached a strain gage 4 inches from the end of the muzzle in several calibers to measure the amount a barrel expands as a bullet passes that point. The lower the number the better, less barrel expansion is less barrel strain. The first work done was with 470 Nitro Express, and full power loads. We ended up getting some pressure at the muzzle, but the results and ranking of different bullets was the same. In .458 calibers and in 500 NE we reduced the loads so the gage only measured the expansion of the barrel, with no added pressures. The results again basically the same, the Cutting Edge bullets and the North Fork bullets all gave the lowest barrel expansion of any common used bullets available. Our BenchMark Bullet was the Woodleigh Soft Points, which are considered safe in all guns. If the expansion measured below the Woodleigh we considered that good, above the Woodleigh might be considered too much.......... All Cutting Edge bullets were well below the Woodleigh in all calibers and cartridges tested.

Bearing Surface and bullet diameter have the most impact on barrel strain. Many bullets tested were well below standard diameter.

The answer to your question is Yes, they are very safe in my opinion based on the research done.

 

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for the information!

 

[PerH]

P.O. Ackley's Big .450 | Handloader Magazine

www.handloadermagazine.com

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

Thanks for the information!

Thanks for the information!

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

Adding a bit of field experience to Michael 458’s test reports on effect of CEB BBW #13 safari solids, I have used a couple of hundred of the 570 grain BBWs in 0.509” in 2 Krieghoff DRs with loads in the 2150-2175 FPS MV and in hunting 2 elephants. These loads regulate to the factory POI in both rifles. Loads were extremely close in MV to the equivalent Barnes solid. I prefer the CEBs because of proven straight line penetration with these as well as the BBWs in 0.423” (404), the 0.458” 450 grain and 500 grain BBW, as described in more detail before.

I have found the CEBs to be very consistent, well priced, easy to develop loads for and AVAILABLE readily.

 

[Riflecrank]

P.O. Ackley's Big .450 | Handloader Magazine

www.handloadermagazine.com

Nice bit of writing by Terry Wieland.
Funny though, that he shows a load with the .458/300-gr Sierra HP at 2820 fps MV from a 22"-barreled .450 Ackley Magnum.
In my 25" .458 WinMag those bullets are easily pushed to 2800 fps,
but they vaporize as soon as they leave the muzzle at that velocity.
Best to keep them down to no more than 2750 fps, and barrel twist no faster than 1:14"
if you want to use them on small varmints.

With a 24"-barreled .458 WM+ load of about 3.580" COL,
the 500-gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid surpasses 2400 fps MV by LabRadar.
Terry prefers his 500-grainers at 2250 fps.
Me too, in my .458 Winchester Magnum, easily done with a 22" barrel length also.

 

[Certus]

If I could only have one choice between the .458 Win in a bolt action bolt action and the .470 NE in a double, I would go with the .458.

I'm not a fan of scoped double rifles, but put a detachable low power variable scope on a bolt-action .458 Win with modern ammo, and you are perfectly suited for any of the big, dangerous stuff.

Had a zastava .458. Feeding was great. Was cheap ($812aud new at the time). Light though. Gave me no issues.