Another 458 Win Mag thread

[Mark A Ouellette]

Wildebeest shot at dusk, 150 meters @Tally-Ho HUNTING SAFARIS October 2022
458 Win 470 Cutting Edge Bullets Safari Raptor
Heym 88B with Trijicon SRO 1 MOA

 

[Vintageguy]

458 Win Mag, 500 grain A-Frames. My goal was 2150 per second. I’m calling it good. 450 grain TSX factory and hand loads go in the same hole. Shot with Winchester Model 70 Safari Express with factory iron sights off bench at 50 yards and they are not low, my hold was bottom of bull at the intersection of the vertical orange line. I’ve found a six o’clock hold works best with iron sights shooting for groups.

 

[AZDAVE]

In the 458WM I have easily had aframes 500gr and hornaday 500gr and 480gr DGX/DGS, using AA2230 powder at 2150-2200fps.

@michael458 Opps you Didn't mean to do that I am usually the one that get accused of being a bad influence so when I also accuse you it is in the Highest level of complement! I do really like the look of that 50 B&M

 

[Riflecrank]

Michael458,

Please feel free to speak of the .458 B&M on a .458 WinMag thread.
The 2.24" R-P RUM brass for .458 B&M has identical capacity as a 2.5" .458 WinMag case
of R-P, W-W, Federal, or Hornady make.
I have to go to Norma brass to add +4 grains H2O to the WinMag, and suppose the Norma .458 B&M case might equal that too in Norma RUM case head ?

Throat both the same and they are ballistic twins that can be loaded long for "+" handloads.
A 3.34" COL .458 B&M+ is same as a 3.60" COL .458 WM+,
and both can beat a SAAMI .458 Lott load.
A 3.0" COL .458 B&M+ is same as a 3.26" COL .458 WinMag.

Yep, my .458 B&M has a 16-7/8" barrel, 1:10" twist, with throat extended to match the .458 Winchester Magnum, thank you very much.
It is in the M70 WSM "short" action with 3.0" mag box length.
I can single load it or short-COL load it for magazine feeding.

It can be a 6.75# rifle or a 7.5# rifle depending on the scope bases and stock I use.
Add to that weight the scope&rings and the ammo weight, 4 rounds.

I loaded the 404-gr Shock Hammer in the .458 B&M+ with 80.0 gr of AA-2230 at 2.990" COL.
Got 2377 fps MV from the 16-7/8" barrel.
In a 24" barreled .458 WinMag I habitually get about 2500 fps from that charge of powder at 3.380" COL.
Both can be zeroed handily for 200 yards and the bucks I have killed with both could not tell what I was shooting.

In my misguided youth I was more of a wildcatter.
Killed one zebra with a .395-caliber wildcat, 330-gr brass non-con HP at +2800 fps MV.
It ran about 50 yards with its boiler room shot out.
I should have had a .458, either B&M or WinMag, the zebra would not be able to tell which of those I was shooting either.

 

[Riflecrank]

What do you consider the best factory ammo for the 458? Hornaday since it gets to 2150fps or federal still at 2090fps but with swift a frames

If you don't handload:

Hornady is excellent for uniformity (St.Dev. for a 5-shot group being on the order of 3 fps)
and in actually delivering 500-grainers at 2140 fps MV from a 24" .458 WinMag barrel.
The DGS and DGX-Bonded are good bullets but there are better bullets.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition has excellent .458 WinMag ammo with a 400-gr TSX advertised at 2250 fps in Tim Sundles' 18" custom rifle and 2247 fps in his 22" factory rifle.
I tried it and got 2336 fps MV in a 24" factory Ruger No. 1 barrel,
and 2350 fps MV in a 25" Shilen barrel.

Buffalo Bore also loads 450-gr TSX and a 450-gr copper FN solid at advertised 2200 fps MV.

Here is one I hope somebody reports on:

.458 Winchester Magnum – Aria Ballistic Engineering

www.ariaballisticengineering.org

404 Gr. Hammer Bullet – “Shock Hammer” @ 2,550 FPS / 5,832 LBS / TKO – 67 Fantastic big Game bullet with great extended range capabilities. This bullet is a perfect all copper fragmenting and deep penetrating Game stopper!!! (20 Round Box)
$117.50 (Excluding Tax)


450 Gr. Cutting Edge – Brass Solid @ 2,450 FPS / 5,996 LBS / TKO- 72 Great deep penetrating, bone crushing and accurate Big or dangerous game load! (20 Rounds)
$115.00 (Excluding Tax)


500 Gr. Hornady – DGS @ 2,200 FPS / 5,372 LBS / TKO – 72 This is a great flat nosed profile solid with copper clad steel jacket, absolutely one of the deepest penetrating bullets with true dangerous or heavy Game capabilities! (20 Rounds)
$117.00 (Excluding Tax)

etc.

You are missing out if you don't handload the .458 WinMag.
CEB and Hammer bullets galore.

 

[michael458]

@Mark A Ouellette ............. Outstanding thank you for posting those.......... I think you are on the right path........... well done.............

@Vintageguy ................... very well done, yes I think you are set to jet.............. I shot a few buffalo with those 500 Swifts......... be sure and dig them out on the far side.............

Please feel free to speak of the .458 B&M on a .458 WinMag thread.
The 2.24" R-P RUM brass for .458 B&M has identical capacity as a 2.5" .458 WinMag case

Yes, of course, they do go hand in hand, what can be done with 458 B&M can be done with 458 Winchester as well, speaking of field work and bullet tech..........At this point, I have now done more with 458 B&M than any of the other 458s, so some things are more than relevant I believe.......

I will leave the serious chamber, throat and other highly technical processes to you however, since you are light years ahead of anyone else in this area of expertise. In fact, I need you to touch base with our friend @Rafiki, he has some serious questions concerning 50/90 and some throat and rechamber work he wants to do, and some of his concerns are beyond my area...............

I loaded the 404-gr Shock Hammer in the .458 B&M+ with 80.0 gr of AA-2230 at 2.990" COL.
Got 2377 fps MV from the 16-7/8" barrel.

Well, thats a "Hammer" so to speak in a very tiny platform.............. That is about what I am getting I think in my 20 inch 458 Winchester, loaded standard length for magazine of course.......

450 Gr. Cutting Edge – Brass Solid @ 2,450 FPS / 5,996 LBS / TKO- 72 Great deep penetrating, bone crushing and accurate Big or dangerous game load! (20 Rounds)
$115.00 (Excluding Tax)

This is in 458 Winchester? Hmmmm............ I think they either have some Magic Powder, or seriously over pressure? I pushed upper pressures at 2350 fps with 24 inches....... But that was 2013 data....... I know we have some new powders, but DAMN........ ? I don't doubt that you can achieve that or close with your expertise, but putting that in a Factory load? Can achieve that in a Lott, and its pushing it, so I know you can do that in your 458 Wins......... but factory load I don't know if they can.......

Of course I don't know everything........ todays modern powders, can work magic, but I would like to test some of those to see myself...........

 

[mms45]

If you don't handload:

Hornady is excellent for uniformity (St.Dev. for a 5-shot group being on the order of 3 fps)
and in actually delivering 500-grainers at 2140 fps MV from a 24" .458 WinMag barrel.
The DGS and DGX-Bonded are good bullets but there are better bullets.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition has excellent .458 WinMag ammo with a 400-gr TSX advertised at 2250 fps in Tim Sundles' 18" custom rifle and 2247 fps in his 22" factory rifle.
I tried it and got 2336 fps MV in a 24" factory Ruger No. 1 barrel,
and 2350 fps MV in a 25" Shilen barrel.

Buffalo Bore also loads 450-gr TSX and a 450-gr copper FN solid at advertised 2200 fps MV.

Here is one I hope somebody reports on:

.458 Winchester Magnum – Aria Ballistic Engineering

www.ariaballisticengineering.org

404 Gr. Hammer Bullet – “Shock Hammer” @ 2,550 FPS / 5,832 LBS / TKO – 67 Fantastic big Game bullet with great extended range capabilities. This bullet is a perfect all copper fragmenting and deep penetrating Game stopper!!! (20 Round Box)
$117.50 (Excluding Tax)


450 Gr. Cutting Edge – Brass Solid @ 2,450 FPS / 5,996 LBS / TKO- 72 Great deep penetrating, bone crushing and accurate Big or dangerous game load! (20 Rounds)
$115.00 (Excluding Tax)


500 Gr. Hornady – DGS @ 2,200 FPS / 5,372 LBS / TKO – 72 This is a great flat nosed profile solid with copper clad steel jacket, absolutely one of the deepest penetrating bullets with true dangerous or heavy Game capabilities! (20 Rounds)
$117.00 (Excluding Tax)

etc.

You are missing out if you don't handload the .458 WinMag.
CEB and Hammer bullets galore.

Thank you help full information

 

[mms45]

what is the go to hodgdon or IMR powder for it? Those seem to be the only brands I can sort of reliably find

 

[cajunchefray]

what is the go to hodgdon or IMR powder for it? Those seem to be the only brands I can sort of reliably find

If you check Hogdon's website, they have loads with H4895 and Varget, 500 grain bullets. I use a mid-level charge of Varget for both 400 and 500 grain bullets. The max load with 500 grain gives with stiff bolt lift in my Whitworth .458.

 

[hoytcanon]

H322 and H4895 are good powders for me in my .458 WM... also Accurate 2230... you are.going to start seeing Accurate powders alot more in the near future as Hodgdon is really pushing it for the domestic reloading market.

 

[Riflecrank]

what is the go to hodgdon or IMR powder for it? Those seem to be the only brands I can sort of reliably find

Hodgdon from faster to slower below:
H4198
H322
Benchmark
H335 (ball)
H4895
Varget

Except for H335, those are all extruded "EXTREME" powders of good Thermo-Ballistic-Independence,
Benchmark maybe the best of all in regards to TBI.
H335 ain't bad in any way, however.

AA-2230 and AA-2460 fall right between H335 and H4895.
They are supposed to be formulated for improved TBI in lots since 2016.
I think AA-2230 is made from AA-2460 with half of the balls flattened to make it burn a little faster
and pack into a smaller space.

Anything good in a .223/5.56 is good in the .458 WinMag, so the black rifle fad has been a boon to the .458 WinMag.
From AA-5744 to CFE 223, for light to heavy bullets.


If I had to pick one powder it would be H4895.
You can use it at 60 % of a maximum load and requires no filler, for all sorts of light loads.
You can also use it at 110% compressed after drop tube and get well over 2600 fps with a 400-grainer:

You use the maximum Woodleigh manual load for the .458 Lott with 400-gr PPSN: 87 grains COMPRESSED H4895

Crimp the bullet in the Woodleigh cannelure for the .458 Lott.
Roll another cannelure onto the Woodleigh bullet 0.3" below the factory cannelure, using a CH4D Cann-Tool.
Then load the .458 Lott and the .458 WM+ with same powder and same degree of compression to same COL: 3.425"
The Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN has a short nose projection of only 0.625" in the .458 Lott load with seating depth of 0.530".
In the .458 WM+ load, the nose projection is 0.925" and seating depth is only 0.230" with this stubby cup & core bullet.
This is just a stunt to prove a point.
I did it.

Woodleigh manual result for a .458 Lott with unspecified barrel length, probably 24" = 2570 fps
My result for .458 WM+ load in 25" Shilen barrel with SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber = 2627 fps MV

Whooped the .458 Lott again.

 

[cajunchefray]

Hodgdon from faster to slower below:
H4198
H322
Benchmark
H335 (ball)
H4895
Varget

Except for H335, those are all extruded "EXTREME" powders of good Thermo-Ballistic-Independence,
Benchmark maybe the best of all in regards to TBI.
H335 ain't bad in any way, however.

AA-2230 and AA-2460 fall right between H335 and H4895.
They are supposed to be formulated for improved TBI in lots since 2016.
I think AA-2230 is made from AA-2460 with half of the balls flattened to make it burn a little faster
and pack into a smaller space.

Anything good in a .223/5.56 is good in the .458 WinMag, so the black rifle fad has been a boon to the .458 WinMag.
From AA-5744 to CFE 223, for light to heavy bullets.


If I had to pick one powder it would be H4895.
You can use it at 60 % of a maximum load and requires no filler, for all sorts of light loads.
You can also use it at 110% compressed after drop tube and get well over 2600 fps with a 400-grainer:

You use the maximum Woodleigh manual load for the .458 Lott with 400-gr PPSN: 87 grains COMPRESSED H4895

Crimp the bullet in the Woodleigh cannelure for the .458 Lott.
Roll another cannelure onto the Woodleigh bullet 0.3" below the factory cannelure, using a CH4D Cann-Tool.
Then load the .458 Lott and the .458 WM+ with same powder and same degree of compression to same COL: 3.425"
The Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN has a short nose projection of only 0.625" in the .458 Lott load with seating depth of 0.530".
In the .458 WM+ load, the nose projection is 0.925" and seating depth is only 0.230" with this stubby cup & core bullet.
This is just a stunt to prove a point.
I did it.

Woodleigh manual result for a .458 Lott with unspecified barrel length, probably 24" = 2570 fps
My result for .458 WM+ load in 25" Shilen barrel with SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber = 2627 fps MV

Whooped the .458 Lott again.

I like the 400 grain Woodleigh with 72 grains of Varget. Accurate and reasonable recoil.
I need to try H4895.

 

[Riflecrank]

Michael458,
I am scratching my head over the ABE loads too.
Are they SAAMI 3.34"/60,000psi ?
I can beat those velocities easily with loads in .458 WM+ if I am allowed to use pressures and COLs of .458 Lott.
Can't tell what barrel length they are using either.
Even with a 26" barrel that would be surprising for SAAMI satisfying
One of us is going to have to buy a box and test it, pull a bullet and analyze the powder charge, hint, hint.

 

[Riflecrank]

Sent a PM to Rafiki as Michael458 suggested, regarding .50-90.
Exceeded character limit. Pasted here to copy later:

First, I would suggest a .510" groove and .500" bore.

Second I would say use a 1:20" twist which works great for the CIP .500 Jeffery and is not too fast for hardcast lead bullets and paper-patched soft lead. Of course a faster twist is needed for 50 BMG bullets.

Third, throat depends on what you really want to do with it.
The old BPCRs had an abrupt cone like on the end of a shotgun chamber.
I think you can do better than that.

I have been through all this and learned something in doing a customized .50-70 Gov't. Rolling Block which I call the
.50-70 Little Bighorn.
I have a .50-90 Replica Sharps 1874 from Pedersoli, as well as several .50-70 Gov't. rifles, from antique Trapdoor to modern replicas.
Waiting to get my .500 Jeffery finished up, which will be loaded like a .50-140 BPCR, heh-heh-heh.
Too much of the .500 A-Square and .500 Mbogo makes Jack a dull boy.

 

[hoytcanon]

... load the .458 Lott and the .458 WM+ with same powder and same degree of compression to same COL: 3.425"
The Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN has a short nose projection of only 0.625" in the .458 Lott load with seating depth of 0.530".
In the .458 WM+ load, the nose projection is 0.925" and seating depth is only 0.230" with this stubby cup & core bullet.
This is just a stunt to prove a point.
I did it.

Woodleigh manual result for a .458 Lott with unspecified barrel length, probably 24" = 2570 fps
My result for .458 WM+ load in 25" Shilen barrel with SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber = 2627 fps MV

Whooped the .458 Lott again.

Imagine how badly the WM would "whoop the Lott" if you jammed the bullet down past the nose in the Lott case! Or better yet, jam two bullets in the case and just primer fire it... bet that would show up those crazy Lott shooter's with their ridiculous inferior cartridge.

 

[Riflecrank]

Some "things" are best ignored.

 

[cajunchefray]

Michael458,
I am scratching my head over the ABE loads too.
Are they SAAMI 3.34"/60,000psi ?
I can beat those velocities easily with loads in .458 WM+ if I am allowed to use pressures and COLs of .458 Lott.
Can't tell what barrel length they are using either.
Even with a 26" barrel that would be surprising for SAAMI satisfying
One of us is going to have to buy a box and test it, pull a bullet and analyze the powder charge, hint, hint.

PM sent

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Imagine how badly the WM would "whoop the Lott" if you jammed the bullet down past the nose in the Lott case! Or better yet, jam two bullets in the case and just primer fire it... bet that would show up those crazy Lott shooter's with their ridiculous inferior cartridge.

Sorry, am I missing something here, like the part where this makes some modicum of sense
gumpy

 

[hoytcanon]

Sorry, am I missing something here, like the part where this makes some modicum of sense
gumpy

I guess you are missing it, Rifle Crank seems to be missing it too. Where is the advantage in the Lott case? Well, if you have eyes, you will notice it is a longer case than the Win Mag... so, the advantage of having and using that case would be to take advantage of that additional capacity, ie. Chambering and throating to allow a proper bullet seating depth so that the powder capacity is used to its FULL potential. If you are going to compare the two cartridges FAIRLY, then the apples to apples comparison is to seat the SAME bullets to the SAME depth and throat both cartridges accordingly.

The APPLES to ORANGES comparison that keeps being used is seating to the same OAL... Big deal! Seating the bullet deeper into the Lott case takes away the advantage it was designed to have, MORE case capacity. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see the flaw in this erroneous comparison... the only way that it makes sense is if you limit the OAL because of the magazine length limitation, but then that is the fault of whoever chose the Lott for an improperly deigned rifle in the first place.

Bottom line... the Lott wins in any fair comparison, because case capacity matters (physics)...

Note; I am not here to elevate the Lott and slag the Win Mag... I shoot them both and appreciate both cartridges... but I can also understand their respective design attributes and give them their just due.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

I guess you are missing it, Rifle Crank seems to be missing it too. Where is the advantage in the Lott case? Well, if you have eyes, you will notice it is a longer case than the Win Mag... so, the advantage of having and using that case would be to take advantage of that additional capacity, ie. Chambering and throating to allow a proper bullet seating depth so that the powder capacity is used to its FULL potential. If you are going to compare the two cartridges FAIRLY, then the apples to apples comparison is to seat the SAME bullets to the SAME depth and throat both cartridges accordingly.

The APPLES to ORANGES comparison that keeps being used is seating to the same OAL... Big deal! Seating the bullet deeper into the Lott case takes away the advantage it was designed to have, MORE case capacity. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see the flaw in this erroneous comparison... the only way that it makes sense is if you limit the OAL because of the magazine length limitation, but then that is the fault of whoever chose the Lott for an improperly deigned rifle in the first place.

Bottom line... the Lott wins in any fair comparison, because case capacity matters (physics)...

Note; I am not here to elevate the Lott and slag the Win Mag... I shoot them both and appreciate both cartridges... but I can also understand their respective design attributes and give them their just due.

Well, I’ve only got one eye and it would be fairly obvious to most that it was 6 to 8 odd mm longer, but like several cartridges (think 338 lap to 338 Norma mag) it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more efficient. My friend (deceased now) had a Lott, actually a Watts, and it was just as effective as my win mag and kicked as much. Perhaps I just missed the subtly of your posts nonsensical reply. Either way, their has been some good information in this thread
gumpy