Another 458 Win Mag thread

[hoytcanon]

Well, I’ve only got one eye and it would be fairly obvious to most that it was 6 to 8 odd mm longer, but like several cartridges (think 338 lap to 338 Norma mag) it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s more efficient. My friend (deceased now) had a Lott, actually a Watts, and it was just as effective as my win mag and kicked as much. Perhaps I just missed the subtly of your posts nonsensical reply. Either way, their has been some good information in this thread
gumpy

Not so nonsensical when wrapped in context. But, I agree, some good information and some good opinions on folks personal favorites and biases. This is what forums are about... hashing things out from different perspectives and experiences to further the overall community data base... it isn't necessary that we all agree.... at least it's something to do when we are cabin bound.

 

[Riflecrank]

I think hoytcanon is upset that he cannot load his .458 Lott to as short a length as the .458 WinMag,
yet the SAAMI/CIP .458 WinMag chamber can be loaded to longer COL than the current SAAMI/CIP .458 Lott chamber.
Shooting non-SAAMI ammo in a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber is not fair, according to hoytcanon.

The biggest shame of the .458 Lott is that Jack Lott used a
1949-designed .450 Watts Magnum chamber reamer for 2.850" brass
in a .458 WinMag barrel and called it what he did, after shortening the brass to 2.800" in 1971.
Then Art Alphin came along and short-throated it for SAAMI version of 1998.
Art must have gotten the idea from his Army days when he got short-sheeted by barracks mates.
Art also stole the .510 Buhmiller Magnum and called it the .500 A-Square.

Nice article by Don Heath aka Ganyana
in AFRICAN HUNTER Vol. 12 No. 3.
Picture above from that article.

At least James Watts told WRAC in 1954 that it was good of them to call the .450 Watts Short by a new name, ".458 Winchester Magnum" finally released in 1956.
WRAC might even be responsible for throating it that way.

Also great to see "A late 1950's vintage .450 Watts magnum factory load."
Funny that the .450 Watts brass looks to have been trimmed to shorter length than the "modern .458 Lott round."

Could it be possible that some ammo factory trimmed .450 Watts Magnum brass to less than 2.850" and still called it a .450 Watts Magnum ?

I no longer weep about having mutilated a .458 WinMag by re-chambering to .458 Lott.
All it took was renaming it to ".458 Watts Express."

I am very happy with my .458 Watts Express which was made by running a SAAMI .458 Lott reamer
into a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum rifle with no set-back of the barrel.
That cleans up a SAAMI .458 Lott throat, transforming it to leade-only.
A totally new cartridge !
Slightly different and better than the original wildcat Jack Lott did.
It has chamber length of only 2.810" instead of the 2.870" chamber length of the first ".458 Lott."
Trimming my brass to 2.790" makes more sense.

The .458 Watts Express and the SAAMI .458 Lott are both better for imitating a .410 shotgun.
You can get a bit more birdshot into the 2.8" case than the 2.5" case.

 

[Riflecrank]

From AFRICAN HUNTER Vol. 12 No. 6 by Don Heath aka Ganyana
"The .458 Lott One of Africa's more versatile cartridges?"

Great for rats or snakes in your tent.
But even a .458 WinMag can handle enough birdshot for that.

 

[michael458]

Great for rats or snakes in your tent.
But even a .458 WinMag can handle enough birdshot for that.

Well that just put 375 completely out of business, and there is now no use at all for 375 calibers........ 458s can do that job with birdshot much better................ I am pleased to finally be rid of that abomination of a caliber.........

 

[hoytcanon]

I think hoytcanon is upset that he cannot load his .458 Lott to as short a length as the .458 WinMag,
yet the SAAMI/CIP .458 WinMag chamber can be loaded to longer COL than the current SAAMI/CIP .458 Lott chamber.
Shooting non-SAAMI ammo in a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber is not fair, according to hoytcanon.

I can load the Lott as short as your WM, I'll just do what you do to prove your silly theory... jam the bullet down into the case until I'm right... if you have less that .3" bullet showing in your WM, I will jam the bullet even further and crimp the mouth like a shotgun shell... SEE! I'M RIGHT! If you are going to use "Non-SAAMI" ammo in your WM, why are you using the "SAAMI" chamber in the Lott? You are cherry picking numbers to make your pet point. You are not going to fool any thinking person here that a 2.5" case is more powerful than the same case at 2.8"... if the chambers are equally constructed with the same throat and the same bullet is seated to the same depth on both cases, the longer cartridge wins, as you say "cuz physics."

Thanks for the discussion Mr. Riflecrank, I have said my piece, I will continue to happily load and shoot both WM & Lott and the baby .458's too! You have a lovely day.

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

“is it even possible to find a double rifle chambered in .458WM? That is something I would definitely snap up!”

Yes. It’s called a 450 NE 3 1/4”!!

After all, the 458 WM was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the 450 NE in an affordable - and ideally, reliable - bolt action DGR.

The rimmed 450 NE is perfectly suited for a DR - large capacity low pressure rimmed case. These are the essential elements for a successful and reliable DGR in the DR format. Rimless, especially belted, cases can be made to work. But, as much as I recognize the utility and efficacy of the 458 WM, it’s natural home is a LA, CRF DGR. To wit, a pre-64 or classic Win M-70 or a Mauser M-98 or one of its quality variants or close cousins.

 

[Riflecrank]

Here is a great use for .458 Lott brass cases, use them as grippers/handles on the end of wooden dowels used to stuff the over-powder wads into a .45-70 BPCR compressed charge of BP:

 

[Riflecrank]

Ganyana reported zeroing his .458 Lott 450-gr TSX bullet (2380 fps) for 50 meters.
Then his single, hardcast lead roundball (.460" diameter, 150 grains) load was spot on at 20 meters.
800 fps from 12 grains of South African powder called MS200.
Higher velocity and the ball skids in rifling and accuracy goes south.
"25 yard load at best."
Touted as a small game load, feeds well from magazine too.
"To make up one of these rounds, resize the case -- bell the mouth slightly; prime; tip in the powder;
and seat the ball tightly by finger pressure alone. The case does not need resizing after shooting with such light powder charges, and a simple `Lee Loader' de-capping punch and a primer seating base is all the equipment required for endless fun and practice."

I bet even a .458 Winchester Magnum could be used for that.

My first screw up here was in using three of the .451" balls with a gas check under them in a .458 WinMag with 18.5 grains of BLUE DOT.

Those were soft swaged lead balls of too small diameter.

Hardcast roundball of 0.460" diameter at 800 fps seems to be the recipe for accuracy,
for head shots on guineafowl and squirrels and such.
The Garmin XERO will make that easier to arrive at.

 

[Riflecrank]

Better not retire the Bug-A-Salt.
Even a Lottite would admit the .458 WinMag might be too powerful for flyswatter use, inside home or camp tent.
Go for it outdoors !

Here is what Ganyana said about his trials with the Speer shot capsules:

"Then I tried Speer's shot capsules intended for use in the .45 Colt revolver round.
Putting two capsules in a case proved a failure. One opened and the other punched a neat .45 caliber hole in the target.
Loading the supplied wad on top of the powder, filling the case with shot, and seating the rest of the capsule
(again filled with shot) to form a 'bullet', so the round would feed from the magazine,
produced acceptable results with a load of 15grn S265. The best results though,
came by combining a .410 cup on top of the powder
and the top half of the Speer capsule squeezed in to form the 'bullet' and hold extra shot.
The shotgun wad took up a fair amount of space, so I could only get 300grn of No 7 pellets into these rounds,
but the cup and capsule provided better protection of the shot from the rifling,
and the pattern was better out to fifteen metres despite the lighter payload."

I have the shot capsules, have not tried them yet, but did try 400-grains of No. 7-1/2 shot
with a Circle Fly Nitro Card wad over powder (18.5 grains of BLUE DOT)
and an inverted gas check over shot.
Did OK in the .458 WinMag, but might do better with shot capsules and smaller shot, OK for mice.

I will have to try that in the .458 Watts Express, like the .458 Lott 300 grains of No. 7 shot,
versus my way for 400 grains of No. 7-1/2 (or No. 9 ?) in the mighty .458 WinMag.
Heh-heh-heh.

 

[michael458]

@Riflecrank back in 2009 I embarked upon a mission to have some shot loads along with 50 B&M and 500 MDM, I am Sh&t scared of snakes, charging elephants buffalo and hippo, no problem, snake, I am going to scream like a girl and run.......

I played with everything from #4 shot to #10 shot. Being .500 caliber the shot capsules for 45 caliber was poor and ineffective, I counted pellets inside a 6 inch circle at 5, 10 and 15 yards. At first I used a card wad to hold down 15 gr Unique, filled the case full of shot, then capped it off with a card wad. I had found 32 gauge wads were near perfect for .500 caliber cases. This was very effective actually even out to 15 yards. #10 shot coming in on top of course.....

I had not paid any attention to the barrel, and after 20-30 tests I looked down the barrel and it was very very seriously leaded up....... My method of barrel cleaning is pretty simple, to remove lead, shoot a bullet down the bore.... LOL....... That 1st round it looked like I had shot a muzzle loader there was so much smoke+, the velocity had dropped 150 fps, and at 25 yards the POI was 6 inches off. It took 5-6 rounds to clean the barrel, and every round velocity went up some, and POI came back to center. It was obvious this leading was an issue. You would not want to face DG with a leaded barrel, POI off and velocity down too..........

I tried everything, 410 shot cups, wrap the pellets in paper, wrap in mylar, double paper wrap, 45 caliber shot capsules, copper shot, BBs, nothing I tried was either effective, or still caused the barrel to lead. I finally pretty much gave up on the project. I did find I could shoot 1-2 of the shotshells without causing a loss of velocity or change in POI........ but absolutely could not shoot more than 3 without it starting to be an issue.

I did the same with 500 MDM and even played with 458 B&M as well........ Perhaps in 458 Win or other straight case .458s, the 45 Shot Capsule would do better and be effective.....but not in .500 caliber for sure.... I would only get 2-14 pellets in 6 inches at 5 yards........ I was back to screaming like a girl and running for my life........... HEH.

Looking around I see I did some brass balls in .500 caliber as well, not sure why or what at the time, but even tested the terminals. I have no records of any accuracy tests on this..........

Big bore cartridges are just full of surprises, far more than you can imagine..............

 

[Riflecrank]

Yikes !
Thanks for that headsup Michael458.
Never knew the leading could be so bad.
My gascheck and birdshot sandwich loads would surely be awful, unless the gaschecks leading and following the shot did some scraping of lead ?
Emergency use only for snakes and mice.
Each snake load followed by a hi-power scrubber bullet.

Seems the most practical thing to do for a squib load is Ganyana's single ball at 800 fps,
.460" ball with 12 grains of
SOMCHEM: MS200
or
ADI: AP50N
Hodgdon: HP-38
Alliant: Red Dot
IMR: PB
Winchester: W231
Accurate Arms: AA2
Vihtavuori: N320

I'll use the Hornady .457" balls powder-coat painted to 0.460" diameter,
or find a roundball mould for .460" balls in hard alloy.

With just a pinch of powder, a primer, and roundball seated by finger pressure only,
there is nothing to confuse a Garmin XERO.
Fun fun fun.

 

[michael458]

My gascheck and birdshot sandwich loads would surely be awful, unless the gaschecks leading and following the shot did some scraping of lead ?

Maybe the gascheck is scrapping some........ Thing is, the lead shoots right out, run a few cheap bullet loads down the bore and it will blow, burn, scrap out. Try the gascheck sandwich and see...... a shotshell load would be damn handy to have one or two in your pocket.....

I used some 50 Super Short shot loads on some snakes here at home one time, we uncovered a nest of copperheads, 5 of the bastards, that 50 Super Short shot load tore them to pieces in "Short" order, Pun intended... LOL....... I hate those horrible creatures........ death to all of them. At that time, I did not give a rats ass about leading the barrel.........

The versatility of .458 caliber is extremely hard to match........ It is the beginning of Magic for the heavies, Elephant, buffalo and Hippo.......... we have the best bullets ever devised by man available to us now, that will allow us to be more successful, more confident, and keep those around us and ourselves from undue harm due to poor bullet choices. Todays best in trauma inflicting bullets is the CEB Raptors, the various 1st Generation Copper CNC bullets from Hammer, CEB Maximus, and some Lehighs (have not looked at the Lehigh line lately)....... The incredible solids, and YES Solids are the most important component of a successful hunt regardless of what the "So called Experts" might say..... There is Every Reason to have Solids in your possession, and NO GOOD REASON not to...... we won't go into details AGAIN, but the Solid can save your day, your hunt, and probably much more......... We have them available to us, we just have to choose not to be Stupid.

There are now some lesser bullets, bullets that 15 years ago we would have never, ever considered seriously, 250-300 gr bullets that burn through plains game like butter, destroy everything inside and put large, heavy, plains game, moose, elk, bears ++++ in the dirt, most of the time DRT....... My favorite amongst these is the CEB 250 Socom Raptor, in which I have used on multiple zebra, wildebeest, oryx, and many many more, and they are devastating, and most of the time exit those animals, yes indeed, a 250 gr Bullet Exiting broadside and even angled shots on zebra/wildebeest, would you have ever thought that? I would not have, but now I have seen it many many times. I even shot hippo and buffalo with them, successfully, brain shots hippo was incredible, and broadside shot on buffalo was one of the only times I recovered the bullet, in hide far side.........

In 458 Winchester/B&M, and even Lott, you can down load these to 45/70 velocity with lesser bullets and have a great time shooting, practicing for a hunt, and or hunting deer/pigs and what have you.........

From Impala/Deer to Elephant, and anything, everything in between .458 can not only do it, but do it with Class and Distinction, time and time again, I never had a 458 Fail me in any manner whatsoever..........

 

[6.5 wildcatter]

Maybe the gascheck is scrapping some........ Thing is, the lead shoots right out, run a few cheap bullet loads down the bore and it will blow, burn, scrap out. Try the gascheck sandwich and see...... a shotshell load would be damn handy to have one or two in your pocket.....

I used some 50 Super Short shot loads on some snakes here at home one time, we uncovered a nest of copperheads, 5 of the bastards, that 50 Super Short shot load tore them to pieces in "Short" order, Pun intended... LOL....... I hate those horrible creatures........ death to all of them. At that time, I did not give a rats ass about leading the barrel.........

The versatility of .458 caliber is extremely hard to match........ It is the beginning of Magic for the heavies, Elephant, buffalo and Hippo.......... we have the best bullets ever devised by man available to us now, that will allow us to be more successful, more confident, and keep those around us and ourselves from undue harm due to poor bullet choices. Todays best in trauma inflicting bullets is the CEB Raptors, the various 1st Generation Copper CNC bullets from Hammer, CEB Maximus, and some Lehighs (have not looked at the Lehigh line lately)....... The incredible solids, and YES Solids are the most important component of a successful hunt regardless of what the "So called Experts" might say..... There is Every Reason to have Solids in your possession, and NO GOOD REASON not to...... we won't go into details AGAIN, but the Solid can save your day, your hunt, and probably much more......... We have them available to us, we just have to choose not to be Stupid.

There are now some lesser bullets, bullets that 15 years ago we would have never, ever considered seriously, 250-300 gr bullets that burn through plains game like butter, destroy everything inside and put large, heavy, plains game, moose, elk, bears ++++ in the dirt, most of the time DRT....... My favorite amongst these is the CEB 250 Socom Raptor, in which I have used on multiple zebra, wildebeest, oryx, and many many more, and they are devastating, and most of the time exit those animals, yes indeed, a 250 gr Bullet Exiting broadside and even angled shots on zebra/wildebeest, would you have ever thought that? I would not have, but now I have seen it many many times. I even shot hippo and buffalo with them, successfully, brain shots hippo was incredible, and broadside shot on buffalo was one of the only times I recovered the bullet, in hide far side.........

In 458 Winchester/B&M, and even Lott, you can down load these to 45/70 velocity with lesser bullets and have a great time shooting, practicing for a hunt, and or hunting deer/pigs and what have you.........

From Impala/Deer to Elephant, and anything, everything in between .458 can not only do it, but do it with Class and Distinction, time and time again, I never had a 458 Fail me in any manner whatsoever..........

View attachment 591441View attachment 591442View attachment 591443View attachment 591444View attachment 591445View attachment 591446View attachment 591447View attachment 591448View attachment 591449View attachment 591450View attachment 591451

Thanks for the tip on the CEB 250 gr SOCOM Raptor. I’m starting to develop a deer load for my Ruger No. 3 45-70. Will probably look at that bullet.

 

[michael458]

Thanks for the tip on the CEB 250 gr SOCOM Raptor. I’m starting to develop a deer load for my Ruger No. 3 45-70. Will probably look at that bullet.

Yes indeed remove that Talon Tip, if it is a lever gun of course, if something like Ruger #1 totally different animal......... Remove Talon Tip, load 59/RL 7 for 2300 fps at 43100 PSI, perfect for the Marlin Lever guns..... do not go to 60/RL 7, pressures jump to 47000 PSI.......... 59/RL 7 is MAX for the Marlin. This is the best load I came up with for that purpose in 45/70..........

 

[Riflecrank]

Wow, thanks for all that Michael458.
So many choices with a .458.
I think I need to pick a termite mound to die on.
400-grain CEB solids and 404-gr Shock Hammers from here out,
All at about 2500 fps.

I will work on getting the .458 Watts Express (2.8") to shoot like the .458 WM+ (2.5") and .458 B&M+ (2.24").

But hey the 0.3" of case might be better with the snake and pest loads if the leading is acceptable.
Either 150 grains of No. 9 shot in a Speer capsule,
or maybe 600 grains in a gascheck sandwhich.
The 2.8" case may have found its niche.

 

[Riflecrank]

 

[Riflecrank]

Since I have learned to post images directly to AH I am dangerous.

 

[michael458]

I used to have a lot of respect for Ross Seyfried until that horrible negative article he did on the 458 Winchester many years ago, yes, indeed I do remember it. I wrote him a letter concerning that, and how I thought he was very wrong on this subject, and the many virtues of the 458 Winchester. At that time we did not even have the excellent bullet tech we have today, which enhances the cartridge by leaps and bounds...... I never received a reply from that, and I never read another Ross Seyfried article either. I don't read any of them anymore, I try and catch Layne Simpson, since he is a friend and we communicate from time to time, and of course he has a 50 B&M Alaskan he likes a good bit, but that is about it, and good as I like Layne he is just catching up as well with some of the bullet tech....... I have dealt with several gun magazine writers over the years, most good guys, most not really all that knowledgeable, and come up short on many subjects I am afraid....................

Since I have learned to post images directly to AH I am dangerous.

Oh No..............