A little food for thought - Pricing on African Hunting Safaris

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Pieter now everyone is going to think that I'm bloody old no man!

Thanks! My best always

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I quote the original question that was posted which I answered as best as possible. Prooving that there are models to do this. I sincerely hope this will make clients more at ease.

I always explain that different properties will be hunted and how far they are apart, no catch here.

There is a segment for what I offer ,and I do not see myself competing outside this specific demographic.

The other side of cheapening this commodity is overvalueing it, this I state with the trend in game prices as per my previous post. I have had a lot of clients who never thought they could afford a safari after seeing ridiculously high pricing.
I have explained why the price of bacon, milk and electricity does not have a major effect on me.

We dwindled from the original question to exchange rates, electricity, property sizes etc.
I have never claimed to offer hunts that I do not.

I went out to answer the original question, yes it can be done, and yes a billion dollar cake is big enough for all of us to make a living out of the different sectors this cake is made up off.

As a last point I really respect guys voicing there concerns. I would have liked more of the guys who works in my pricing range to have joined in. The best thing for our industry is to be transparent.

Ok this is where we differ, I am of the standpoint that it must apply to me whether I buy it for the lodge, or if you rent a lodge you need to buy it for your house.

When I calculate cost to company, I include every tracker working while on safari, skinner, kitchen ladies, laundry, the cost of the pump that supplies water to camp, the electricity bill, the truck that feeds (in case of bow hunters)
The recovery crew, the tractor that maintains the roads, 50 - $60k in marketing costs per year whether I have a new truck with a maintenance plan or not it is still being paid for, the list is endless, there is simply no way that I cant distance myself from running costs and most definitely not inflation, none of us can escape inflation.

As a absolute final on this thread I admit there are good severely discounted hunts out there, I just simply can not wrap my head around how it is possible to do it, I am no Donald Trump in business terms but the math just isn't there.

But that's just me.

My best always

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Why not both? Consider this:

You and a bunch of others book an amazing deal with a new on the scene outfitter. The hunters go on their trip, see some animals but not many. You take a few okay trophies, but nothing spectacular, and some of your animals that your PH said to shoot are obviously sub adults.

Hunting vehicles are in a state of relative disrepair, so you spend many hours waiting on a broken truck to be repaired.

Food at best is marginal in quality and always just a bit on the short side.

Your PH always seems a bit slow to get going in the morning, midday break seems to be a bit longer than necessary, and you're always headed back to the camp/lodge well before dark, and it's always a pretty short drive back.

Camp staff while maybe not rude to you seem a bit unhappy. You can't quite put your finger on it, but you can feel the tension, something's wrong here.

You decide to have a couple of your better but average at best animals sent in to the taxidermist your outfitter works with. After being home for a few months and not hearing from the taxidermist, you decide to shoot them an email or call them. The taxidermist regrets to inform you that no progress has been made on your trophies, because your outfitter has not provided them to him. You do some more digging because your outfitter is now hard to reach. You find out that the landowner of the property you hunted on has locked up your trophies, because he has not been paid his portion of the trophy fees.

You now start to surf the web and find out that others who took up this amazing deal are reporting the same problems. Everyone stays calm for a little while in an effort to get the situation resolved, but it does not end well. Pissed off and rightfully so, you form the quintessential rant of all "I got screwed" rants, eloquent, based on facts.....the perfect bad hunt report and you post it here on AH and perhaps other places too. It ends with "I will never hunt Africa again!"

Sometime not long after you hit the submit button, you remember there was that one well known outfitter who when you asked for information regarding the guy you booked with, he warned you that this may not be the deal you thought it was. But at least you had something of a hunt, you hopefully have some pictures and some good memories even if you don't have your trophies. Even so, this truly once in a lifetime hunt should have been better. Waiting another year to save up a bit more would have been the better choice however and you now realize this.

But that experienced outfitter who warned you, well he now has to live with your bad report. Not because it was about him, but it was about the country he operates in. So then he has to live with the overall fallout that many people may read your report may decide that Africa is not for them.

So in the end both of you lose.

The situation I came up with is based off what I have read in numerous bad reports. Is it indicative of all aggressively priced deals? No, but it happens and it's not good for anyone.

Yes, the situation you came up with is based on reading numerous reports.
Most likely similar and the same as I have read.
But I have read plenty of bad reports on high end priced hunts/day rates too.
And I have talked with plenty of hunters that have been on hunts in South Africa paying $450 and higher in daily rates and many have felt scammed when coming home.
The day rates really tells nothing or little of the quality of the experience.
Most Norwegian hunters go to hunt in South Africa or Namibia by booking a hunt with a more or less serious Norwegian or Danish "agent" where most of the time, the price is not at a bargain rate at all.
And their experiences varies a lot.

I am totally sure that hunting with Jaco would be a great experience, but I am sure I will have a great experience hunting with others for a lower day rate too.
Others will clearly find that they get a greater experience hunting with Jaco, but that all depends on what we want and are looking for.

On my first hunt in South Africa, I hunted with an outfitter that charged $400 in day rates and I booked the package from a well known agent that is also known as being very serious.
Even if I had a great time hunting, and it made me want to go back to South Africa to hunt again, I clearly think that I didn't get what I paid for.

How can we really know if we will get what we pay for or not?
How can we know if the more expensive offer will be better than the cheaper one?

We really can't.
I have enough experience in the construction business to very well know that the price very often do not mirror the quality.
Even if the outfitter business is very different from the construction business, I think it very often is like that there too.
We can do our best to read forums like this, ask the right questions and gather as much knowledge as possible, but still we take a chance with our hard earned money.
And still we might get disappointed.
I think being a member of this forum, reading a lot on it and get a gut feeling about the different outfitters here over some time, very often will help people make the right choice.
And I really think that people booking a hunt with most of the outfitters being members on this forum will get a great experience.

As said in a earlier post, is my family of 6 planning to go to South Africa to hunt a few years from now.
At a day rate of $400-450 or higher per person + trophy fees, we can not afford this.
Even if we save up a few/many more years.
Then our kids will for sure have left the nest and we have missed the chance to give them the great experience hunting in Africa can be when they still live with us.
So our choice is either not to go or we will need to risk it with an outfitter charging lower day rates or gives us a great deal.

So I hope that some of the outfitters offering lower prices on this forum are still running their business and getting great reviews till the day it is time for us to book our hunt.
If not, we better spend our money hunting somewhere else in the world.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Yes, the situation you came up with is based on reading numerous reports.
Most likely similar and the same as I have read.
But I have read plenty of bad reports on high end priced hunts/day rates too.
And I have talked with plenty of hunters that have been on hunts in South Africa paying $450 and higher in daily rates and many have felt scammed when coming home.
The day rates really tells nothing or little of the quality of the experience.
Most Norwegian hunters go to hunt in South Africa or Namibia by booking a hunt with a more or less serious Norwegian or Danish "agent" where most of the time, the price is not at a bargain rate at all.
And their experiences varies a lot.

I am totally sure that hunting with Jaco would be a great experience, but I am sure I will have a great experience hunting with others for a lower day rate too.
Others will clearly find that they get a greater experience hunting with Jaco, but that all depends on what we want and are looking for.

On my first hunt in South Africa, I hunted with an outfitter that charged $400 in day rates and I booked the package from a well known agent that is also known as being very serious.
Even if I had a great time hunting, and it made me want to go back to South Africa to hunt again, I clearly think that I didn't get what I paid for.

How can we really know if we will get what we pay for or not?
How can we know if the more expensive offer will be better than the cheaper one?

We really can't.
I have enough experience in the construction business to very well know that the price very often do not mirror the quality.
Even if the outfitter business is very different from the construction business, I think it very often is like that there too.
We can do our best to read forums like this, ask the right questions and gather as much knowledge as possible, but still we take a chance with our hard earned money.
And still we might get disappointed.
I think being a member of this forum, reading a lot on it and get a gut feeling about the different outfitters here over some time, very often will help people make the right choice.
And I really think that people booking a hunt with most of the outfitters being members on this forum will get a great experience.

As said in a earlier post, is my family of 6 planning to go to South Africa to hunt a few years from now.
At a day rate of $400-450 or higher per person + trophy fees, we can not afford this.
Even if we save up a few/many more years.
Then our kids will for sure have left the nest and we have missed the chance to give them the great experience hunting in Africa can be when they still live with us.
So our choice is either not to go or we will need to risk it with an outfitter charging lower day rates or gives us a great deal.

So I hope that some of the outfitters offering lower prices on this forum are still running their business and getting great reviews till the day it is time for us to book our hunt.
If not, we better spend our money hunting somewhere else in the world.

As has been mentioned a couple of times, this thread has gone round round. This will hopefully be my last post in this discussion.

So to be clear.

1. I have not on this thread accused Pieter or Loodt of not delivering on what was sold to their clients.
2. There have certainly been scams pulled on clients that were priced more on average.
3. Price and price alone is NOT a SINGLE indicator of whether or not the offer is legitimate. You always owe it to yourself to research any outfitter no matter what he is charging.
4. However if the offer you've been made starts to fall into the "too good to be true" category, it demands more scrutiny.
5. If you book a hunt using price as your SINGLE criteria, do not be surprised if you get burned.

 

[TokkieM]

@Jaco Strauss have a grear Bday.

Pieter I cant offer the prices you do, just wont make any money that way, but it is good that you can offer what you do at the prices you do. Everyone has a place in the market,big or small. PH's in Limpopo may be happy to earn less, PH's in the EC may earn more due to other reasons (from what I see on here the day rate paid by Limpopo to the PH is less than in the EC, at least for what I work for)

I do agree with Jaco though on having large concessions, prices for good areas do increase the rates and as far as I am concerned also adds value to the clients hunt. If you hunt one large area for 7 days you are spending zero time looking at scenary flashing by the truck window, you hunt from the moment you leave camp till you arrive back. Multiple smaller areas means travel time, travel time means less time hunting. So if I pay 350$ a day and have no travel time inbetween or if I pay 250$ and have to spend 2 to 4 hours running between hunting areas I am paying the same money (my way of seeing it).

Cost should never be the only consideration when booking with a Outfitter. There are many more things for the client to think about and consider. I do however know that sometimes you get a little less when you pay a little less (no reflection on anyone here). It can go the otherway too, you may pay more for the same experiance. As a client myself sometimes I will pay more if I know what I am getting is what I am paying for. I pay for the whole experiance and that is only complete once my trophies are hanging on the wall back home.

 

[peras]

@Jaco Strauss have a grear Bday.

Pieter I cant offer the prices you do, just wont make any money that way, but it is good that you can offer what you do at the prices you do. Everyone has a place in the market,big or small. PH's in Limpopo may be happy to earn less, PH's in the EC may earn more due to other reasons (from what I see on here the day rate paid by Limpopo to the PH is less than in the EC, at least for what I work for)

I do agree with Jaco though on having large concessions, prices for good areas do increase the rates and as far as I am concerned also adds value to the clients hunt. If you hunt one large area for 7 days you are spending zero time looking at scenary flashing by the truck window, you hunt from the moment you leave camp till you arrive back. Multiple smaller areas means travel time, travel time means less time hunting. So if I pay 350$ a day and have no travel time inbetween or if I pay 250$ and have to spend 2 to 4 hours running between hunting areas I am paying the same money (my way of seeing it).

Cost should never be the only consideration when booking with a Outfitter. There are many more things for the client to think about and consider. I do however know that sometimes you get a little less when you pay a little less (no reflection on anyone here). It can go the otherway too, you may pay more for the same experiance. As a client myself sometimes I will pay more if I know what I am getting is what I am paying for. I pay for the whole experiance and that is only complete once my trophies are hanging on the wall back home.

Tokkie, agreed. But if you hunt on the place you stay and the other farms are less than 20 minutes drive away and all are larger than 3000 acres you don't loose much hunting time.

 

[ActionBob]

Sorry for stretching this out more and maybe it should be a new thread.. But we have a lot of peoples attention I would like to hear from on this one... Phil you might be a great resource. Bill may be as well but just getting started. I don't mean to put anybody on the spot, but rather open a further dialog with interested parties.

Money Transfers and bonding or guarantees, assumption of risk;
Normally everything seems to go smoothly. But there was the incident of Greg Rodriguez being killed and some people losing money or at least having a hard time working it out. Now there is a post regarding a deposit on a hunt where the outfitter/PH was killed in a car crash... Hunters, especially those on here really seem to be Gentlemen and perhaps tend to shy away from such discussions. Especially when a widow and children are left behind and it can be difficult to ask for money back in their time of sorrow and need. But on the other hand, if a deposit is made one expects and should expect to get something for it. And often it took a lot of time and some pain to save up for the "hunt of a lifetime". Reality might be however that that money is sometimes spent long before the goods and services are delivered. On top of this, we are dealing internationally.

In many other industries, dealers and contractors are bonded to ensure they are financially sound enough to back what they are doing and to have that insurance that people get paid. Not that it is perfect by any means. But good business. Does the hunting industry have such safeguards in place or even available

Clients perspective; How much risk is there to send a large deposit and have something happen out of anyone's control? You can check all the references in the World but when the unexpected tragedy happens, did that really do any good? Are any outfitters bonded? Are they all? Do bonding services exist in Africa?

Booking Agent; One of the examples is of a booking agent. Are they normally bonded? Greg apparently was not. What assurances are there that the payments are sent to the outfitter? Should the booking agent hold the deposit in escrow and thus act on behalf of both outfitter and client? But is the booking agent bonded or have other assurances in place? Is the booking agent accepting responsibility and accountable to the outfitter for collecting the payments? Likewise is the booking agent responsible to the client that everything is as he said it would be.

My experience to date has been very positive with a booking agent. I was able to send all payments to him here in the States so hassle free! He was very helpful with tons of advice for a first timer and readily available or returned calls and emails promptly... Actually took an uncomfortably long time to send a final bill, but he was out hunting himself. I did also email the outfitter whenever payment was sent to ensure he knew what and when to expect it or to let the agent know he knew payment was made. In that experience, everyone was pretty relaxed about the money part.

Oufitters; I also had a discussion with an outfitter who was owed a lot of money from a different booking agent and had clients wanting hunts they paid for but the outfitter never received payment for.... Are there safeguards that can be utilized to cover these risks? The outfitter needs to deliver to hold his reputation and yet deserves to be paid. Do outfitters ask their agents for formal assurances such as being bonded?

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Tokkie, agreed. But if you hunt on the place you stay and the other farms are less than 20 minutes drive away and all are larger than 3000 acres you don't loose much hunting time.

Ok but your losing al the way on inflation and to the bank.

Pieter I have the world of respect for you but I need to know the secret. I can't I just can't figure it out the math simply does not make sense.

I know you will have a awesome season and look forward in sharing many conversations with you, and possibly a Jameson in the not to distant future....

Billc I said Jameson not Johnny Blue!! wahahaha!

My best always

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@ActionBob, I would definitely say your post is worthy of a whole new thread. A booking agent I am not. Will I help people get booked with HartzView Safaris, of course. But I am not a booking agent per se.

Regarding bonding and overall issues of money being secured, yep a very long thread that could make. Alas, I'm back to work after the holidays so I don't have time right now to address those questions.

 

[TokkieM]

Tokkie, agreed. But if you hunt on the place you stay and the other farms are less than 20 minutes drive away and all are larger than 3000 acres you don't loose much hunting time.

I hear you Pieter, there is no problem with that. Many places in the EC are hours apart, I know I hunt there often, if you do Grysbuck or Blue Duiker you are in for a 2 to 6 hour round trip depending on were you book. That is at least 1/4 day on the road and not hunting.
Same thing as going into a area were there are only trophy male animals and all are within a 1/4 inch of each other, far easier and cheaper to put and take than to keep heards of 100's of animals and let them grow to trophy quality, especially if you have low price high volume hunting. Once again it is not aimed at anyone here, I can only say good things about the fellows I have met here. It is however another way to keep volumes high and costs low with a quick turnover of capital, I dont want to hunt like that but someone else may not mind.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Billc I said Jameson not Johnny Blue!! wahahaha!

Wise man and occasionally even a gentleman that Jaco!

 

[peras]

I hear you Pieter, there is no problem with that. Many places in the EC are hours apart, I know I hunt there often, if you do Grysbuck or Blue Duiker you are in for a 2 to 6 hour round trip depending on were you book. That is at least 1/4 day on the road and not hunting.
Same thing as going into a area were there are only trophy male animals and all are within a 1/4 inch of each other, far easier and cheaper to put and take than to keep heards of 100's of animals and let them grow to trophy quality, especially if you have low price high volume hunting. Once again it is not aimed at anyone here, I can only say good things about the fellows I have met here. It is however another way to keep volumes high and costs low with a quick turnover of capital, I dont want to hunt like that but someone else may not mind.

Totally agree with you Tokkie. over here my furthest area is an hours drive, that is for black wildebeest and springbuck, they do not naturally occur over here. I think I must be the most expensive priced on springbuck as it is just not worth taking the drive for a springbuck alone.

 

[peras]

Ok but your losing al the way on inflation and to the bank.

Pieter I have the world of respect for you but I need to know the secret. I can't I just can't figure it out the math simply does not make sense.

I know you will have a awesome season and look forward in sharing many conversations with you, and possibly a Jameson in the not to distant future....

Billc I said Jameson not Johnny Blue!! wahahaha!

My best always

Looking forward to this, I just want to have a video of us debating this after half a bottle each, will be classic!

 

[thi9elsp]

As a hunter I'm intrigued by the discussion and points made by all. Thank you for sharing. From my seat, here's how I approach my adventures:

#1 - Legal, #2 - Safe, #3 - Fun, #4 - Educational, #5 - Opportunity for game.

And, as funds are limited, I need to get what I believe is the most value for my time and money. When it's just me, then remote camps and cots/pads is fine. When Ann is traveling with me then some creature comforts are needed. I want the people I'm hunting with to make a living from the services they deliver for me - but my personal fiduciary responsibility is to get as much as possible for each dollar I spend.

I am fortunate for Alaska and Wyoming hunts, my brother is retired USFWS and has provided me with the ability to find the right guide / outfitter through his connections. And, that has resulted in 10 year relationships, fantastic trophies, and experiences I treasure. Ann and I attended the DSC Convention in 2011 to be able to look outfitters and PH's in the eye and figure out who we might want to hunt with. I ended up being the winning bidder on an auction hunt with Safari Classics/DSC/Chifuti. At the auction price - about 40% below normal we still received all of the services and experiences someone else would have at full price.

This coming April we go to New Zealand. We met the outfit at the DSC Convention in 2014. We also talked to another group. Both had strong references that they provided as well as on this site. We discussed prices and were frank with both - which started a bit farther apart than expected. After discussions they were closer together and we made the choice based upon who we met face to face. And fully understanding the apples and oranges.

So, I don't believe there is anything wrong with a client shopping and comparing prices. We need to understand all components of the hunt cost so that we can determine for ourselves what we're willing to pay for and what we don't feel we need.

John

 

[K-man]

Well I have to put in my 2 cents worth finally. One thing not mentioned at all is the customer's expectations. I know when I go for a hunt there are one or two animals that I am really interested in, with the food and facilities at least adequate. Anything above that is just a bonus to me. If you start with a good attitude and reasonable expectations, roll with the inevitable bumps here and there, you will have a good time whether it is at 300 per day or 1000. I just expect the outfitter/P.H. to be honest and try their best.
wow! I think someone else just had the same idea as me! We were typing at the same time. Good job John!

 

[CAustin]

Kman I think you summed this up very well.

Well I have to put in my 2 cents worth finally. One thing not mentioned at all is the customer's expectations. I know when I go for a hunt there are one or two animals that I am really interested in, with the food and facilities at least adequate. Anything above that is just a bonus to me. If you start with a good attitude and reasonable expectations, roll with the inevitable bumps here and there, you will have a good time whether it is at 300 per day or 1000. I just expect the outfitter/P.H. to be honest and try their best.
wow! I think someone else just had the same idea as me! We were typing at the same time. Good job John!

 

[Norwegian Hunter]

if you do Grysbuck or Blue Duiker you are in for a 2 to 6 hour round trip depending on were you book. That is at least 1/4 day on the road and not hunting.

I do not see how you lose any hunting time.
You only start to drive early and returning after dark

 

[TokkieM]

I do not see how you lose any hunting time.
You only start to drive early and returning after dark

Some roads in SA you dont travel in the dark if you can avoid it. To get up early enough to make it by daybreak you need to leave at around 3am in summer, hunting being hunting you may do this two days in a row, by day 3 you are way too tired, no matter who you are it gets too much and looses some of the enjoyment and excitement. I have hunted with many great and very fit hunters,but by day 2 up and down the mountains on foot and the African sun takes its toll.
Driving to a area eats into hunting time, if not directlly then indirectlly.I prefer to spend my time hunting when I pay for it

 

[billc]

The point of traveling or needing to drive does happen.But lets just not try and say it is all about the size of a place.Must place that are 5000 acres will have most of the same animals as a larger area. Kudu,impala,wildbeast,nyala and so on will be on areas of all sizes.

Using blue duiker and special animals like that must often come with driving must of the time no matter were you hunt.Some animals because of were they live just need to be traveled to.If a guy wants to hunt springbuck and a blue duiker in the cape and want the best quality he will be driving. Any good outfitter will let the client know that.

 

[TokkieM]

The point of traveling or needing to drive does happen.But lets just not try and say it is all about the size of a place.Must place that are 5000 acres will have most of the same animals as a larger area. Kudu,impala,wildbeast,nyala and so on will be on areas of all sizes

I am sorry Bill, it is all about the size of the place. There is no way any Outfitter can accomadate or sustain any high volume hunting in a area 5000acres in size. If he has to take 15 to 20 trophy Kudu each year in a area that size he is surelly hunting by means of put and take. A area that size and depending on were it is cannot sustain all types of species, Black Wildebees dont do well in the bush, neither do Springbuck or Gemsbuck or Red Hartebees, they prefer a different terrain. Just like you wont be shooting any Bushbuck on the plains or highup on the mountains. Large areas have a far greater chance of containing suitable habitat and can sustain larger herds and a more diverse species combination. That is the way you can sustain long term hunting in a specific area without having to put and take. Besides that trophy quality from one 5000acre area can be poor and another area great. Which one would you hunt if you had to travel 2hrs?
I am sure cheaper hunts can be nice and well run, I am also very sure larger areas contain more species and to a extent better quality trophies and I am happy to pay extra for it, so are most of my clients.