A little food for thought - Pricing on African Hunting Safaris

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Is it because they care about my economy or their own?

Why not both? Consider this:

You and a bunch of others book an amazing deal with a new on the scene outfitter. The hunters go on their trip, see some animals but not many. You take a few okay trophies, but nothing spectacular, and some of your animals that your PH said to shoot are obviously sub adults.

Hunting vehicles are in a state of relative disrepair, so you spend many hours waiting on a broken truck to be repaired.

Food at best is marginal in quality and always just a bit on the short side.

Your PH always seems a bit slow to get going in the morning, midday break seems to be a bit longer than necessary, and you're always headed back to the camp/lodge well before dark, and it's always a pretty short drive back.

Camp staff while maybe not rude to you seem a bit unhappy. You can't quite put your finger on it, but you can feel the tension, something's wrong here.

You decide to have a couple of your better but average at best animals sent in to the taxidermist your outfitter works with. After being home for a few months and not hearing from the taxidermist, you decide to shoot them an email or call them. The taxidermist regrets to inform you that no progress has been made on your trophies, because your outfitter has not provided them to him. You do some more digging because your outfitter is now hard to reach. You find out that the landowner of the property you hunted on has locked up your trophies, because he has not been paid his portion of the trophy fees.

You now start to surf the web and find out that others who took up this amazing deal are reporting the same problems. Everyone stays calm for a little while in an effort to get the situation resolved, but it does not end well. Pissed off and rightfully so, you form the quintessential rant of all "I got screwed" rants, eloquent, based on facts.....the perfect bad hunt report and you post it here on AH and perhaps other places too. It ends with "I will never hunt Africa again!"

Sometime not long after you hit the submit button, you remember there was that one well known outfitter who when you asked for information regarding the guy you booked with, he warned you that this may not be the deal you thought it was. But at least you had something of a hunt, you hopefully have some pictures and some good memories even if you don't have your trophies. Even so, this truly once in a lifetime hunt should have been better. Waiting another year to save up a bit more would have been the better choice however and you now realize this.

But that experienced outfitter who warned you, well he now has to live with your bad report. Not because it was about him, but it was about the country he operates in. So then he has to live with the overall fallout that many people may read your report may decide that Africa is not for them.

So in the end both of you lose.

The situation I came up with is based off what I have read in numerous bad reports. Is it indicative of all aggressively priced deals? No, but it happens and it's not good for anyone.

 

[billc]

The question to you phil with how you layed that out is what about the reports that go the other way. How about my report that shows lower price hunts can go well also.

I for one know of a few people who are going after reading my report. Had two hunters go after reading my report on another forum that never even thought of going to africa.Why did they never think of going because they thought they could not afford to go. So did my lower price hunt hurt pieter,chris,jaco ,jacques.

I can not even remember when I have seen a bad report that was all true and happened in the last few years. I have seen hunters get screwed by some and have seen outfitters get screwed also. One of that last bad reports I seen was someone getting screwed out of a rhino hunt. Nothing to do with price but someone looks like they took the money and ran.Bad reports don't always happen because of a lower price.

 

[Royal27]

I'm in agreement with Phil and Brickburn here - the answer can be BOTH, and, in my opinion, it will be both with any reputable outfitter, or fair minded hunter.

Not all "inexpensive" hunts are bad and not all people who tell the buyer to "beware" are doing it just for their own gain. Are there still scams out there that the hunter should be wary of? YES!!! Are there still outfitters that only want what is best for themselves personally? I'm sure. But, most are in the middle, as they should be.

I haven't seen anywhere in this thread that said that no "inexpensive" hunt would ever be good. In my mind, this still all goes back to supply and demand (over simplifying here).

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The question to you phil with how you layed that out is what about the reports that go the other way. How about my report that shows lower price hunts can go well also.

I for one know of a few people who are going after reading my report. Had two hunters go after reading my report on another forum that never even thought of going to africa.Why did they never think of going because they thought they could not afford to go. So did my lower price hunt hurt pieter,chris,jaco ,jacques.

I can not even remember when I have seen a bad report that was all true and happened in the last few years. I have seen hunters get screwed by some and have seen outfitters get screwed also. One of that last bad reports I seen was someone getting screwed out of a rhino hunt. Nothing to do with price but someone looks like they took the money and ran.Bad reports don't always happen because of a lower price.

Of course bad hunts don't happen just because of price and I've stated so on numerous occasions including at the end of my last post. And no, your hunts should not have hurt them since you posted a positive report.

I'm not sure if AH is the only forum you frequent, I can tell you it's not mine. So I read reports here and other places. First there was my own experience with an outfitter who was definitely running a shady business. At DSC quite by accident, I ended up talking to a person who actually hunted with that guy, never got her trophies.

Probably the hunt that stands out the most to me was a hunt that took place in Zim which I read about on another forum. The hunter was looking for the absolute best deal he could get on a combined leopard, buff and trophy elephant hunt for I think it was $25K. Yes that's right, all three of those for $25K. He asked a booking agent to try and find such a deal and amazingly he did. The booking agent told him however that it was a not so great area in Zim, it would be a difficult hunt and likely while there elephant there, he'd probably not get one.

Furthermore, the agent was not real big on the particular outfitter and more specifically a PH. His instructions were to the outfitter that that PH absolutely not be his client's PH. Well guess who the PH was when the hunter showed up? Making a long story short, the hunter did kill a leopard and a good one. But he also wounded a buffalo that the tracker and PH did not follow up on and the hunter in question ended up paying a bribe to the game scout to "forget" about the wounded buff. And the coup de grace was the trophy bull elephant he killed. Most elephant bulls when taken, the report involves how much the ivory weighed in pounds. This report, the ivory should have been measured in ounces and the tusks were about 10" long.

This cluster all started with a hunter who wanted those 3 DG animals for $25K and an outfitter willing to accept that much. And no this wasn't some end of season special.

I will say that it's been awhile since we've ready a doozy of a bad report on AH, but don't think for a moment that there aren't scam artists out there ready to "take" the unsuspecting hunter.

 

[tarbe]

The problem is I have no idea how to put a numeric value on the "experience factor" I am looking for... And I do not explicitly mean the experience of the outfitter or the PH.... I am thinking more about my personal experience living up to expectations. And with that in mind, I am also looking for my particular "best value"..... That may well not be the cheapest hunt and may not be the biggest animal. But rather the one I think will deliver the best balance of the experience I am looking for at a good price with a fine trophy as a potential conclusion. But the most important part of that trophy is the memories and story it represents.

This is that gut factor that Bill always talks about...the thing that no spreadsheet or formula can predict.

And it is very important!


Tim

 

[spike.t]

this is getting....sorry has got very repetitive , and is going round and round in circles, with the same thing being said by the same people over and over.........bill certain people arent saying lower priced hunts are all going to be bad, but making the observation that where a bad hunts happens it is usually associated with a lower priced deal hunt, and before you start .... yes there are bad expensive ones as well . . so now that is all sorted what was the question again? ...............

 

[BRICKBURN]

..........
I will say that it's been awhile since we've ready a doozy of a bad report on AH, but don't think for a moment that there aren't scam artists out there ready to "take" the unsuspecting hunter.

Not directed at you Phil.

Although not a "hunt report". The hunt has not gotten to take place. Does it really matter when the problem occurs?
Given that most White Rhino are going for north of $55,000.00 this is pretty damned concerning.

http://www.africahunting.com/thread...hinocon-anton-bakker.17695/page-2#post-158477

This should scare the hell out of any hunter thinking about booking a hunt.

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/napha’s-reply-to-thormÄhlen-cochran-safaris-pty-ltd.18430/

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/napha-distances-itself-from-rhino-cow-hunter.17389/

 

[BRICKBURN]

this is getting....sorry has got very repetitive , and is going round and round in circles, .......................what was the question again? ...............

....................

QUESTION:

When considering a safari...

Are you looking for a 4star experience at 2 star rates? ........
How long can an Outfitter who charges rates that doesn't cover his basic costs stay in business and if he manages to do so - how does he do it?
.................
How comfortable would you as client feel about leaving a deposit for a hunt a year or more out with an Outfitter who barely charges enough to cover his daily expenses for a hunt...?

Or are you looking at the best value for money experience you can get without harming anyone - including yourself in the process?
...

 

[spike.t]

ah yes thanks wayne

 

[BRICKBURN]

.....
Not all "inexpensive" hunts are bad and not all people who tell the buyer to "beware" are doing it just for their own gain. ..............

 

[ActionBob]

... And the coup de grace was the trophy bull elephant he killed. Most elephant bulls when taken, the report involves how much the ivory weighed in pounds. This report, the ivory should have been measured in ounces and the tusks were about 10" long.

Can't say I've seen anything that bad, but when I visited a Zimbabwe taxidermist, there were some pretty small tusks there.. The guy at the taxidermist shop was shaking his head about it.........

I will say I got a deal and a trophy. I would have been very happy with a 40# bull, heck 35#... The PH did not want to shoot those and I was wondering... But got a 50#!!! So Trophy elephant, trophy buffalo, and trophy impala with my wife along for 12 days for $26,650.....

The steak at the tent camp was tuff and the chicken was nothing to write home about, but the game meat was great and the food was never in short supply. The steak at the main camp was as good as I've had.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Can't say I've seen anything that bad, but when I visited a Zimbabwe taxidermist, there were some pretty small tusks there.. The guy at the taxidermist shop was shaking his head about it.........
..........

I doubt those bloody tusks made it out of the field. Pretty sure some extra bribes to stay out of jail might be involved.

 

[ActionBob]

To get this back on track;
I had this all in my head last night when the site went down and will try to get it out straight now...
I want to discuss a couple business philosophies and I hope you guys forgive me for whatever I get wrong and I certainly don't know your business so this is strictly hypothetical for your hunting businesses but it is based on my business experience.

Any business needs profit as was discussed, but it goes beyond that. To be viable long term, a business also needs a return on investment, a return to overhead, and a return to management. So an operation that owns it's own lodge(s), land and animals might have an advantage on perceived profit and on cash flow. And yes, in tuff times, cash flow is king! However that business that owns a lot of assets, should receive a return on those and an astute business person has to look at that from an "opportunity cost" basis.. .Or rather if they do not have, saw $1m invested in their business, what would the return be to that money if it was invested elsewhere? Now lots of things complicate this, not the least of which is "it is the family farm and must stay in the family". Also pride of ownership... These are usually very positive factors and drive people to care for and make those things successful. But bottom line is, over time there needs to be a return on that investment... And it really should not make much difference to that return on assets whether there is debt against it or not. That influences cash flow and return on equity. (a whole different discussion). So if someone like Chris and/or Jaco have a large investment, they need a return on that, in addition to a return on their management, and labor. They have every right to price this into their business model and especially when they can support it on their solid reputation.

And in my World at least, the depreciable assets (building, fences, and machinery/trucks) had better return at least depreciation and maintenance or things will slide backwards. These are real costs.

Now if you have a very lean business model and with very little investment, (lease the land and lodge) own a truck and rifle... And if you have a smaller business.. .There is less return expected to management (less to manage, maybe less experience), labor expects about the same.. But you have rental or lease payments on the land and lodge, pay for animals as you go, no investment in a breeding or resident herd. Your concerned about cash flow and maintaining your vehicle and may very well totally out compete the guy who has all those assets. At least on a short term basis an possibly you have a long term sustainable "business model". In this model you do not worry much about return on assets if you don't have many assets invested in this business... The return on those things is not your worry as long as you can get a decent deal on use of them.. And there may be other factors you don't see every day... At least in the USA people invest for tax savings and factor that into their ROA. They may be "farming" the depreciation more than the animals! And again in the USA (I realize this may be WAY off in Africa) land is a stable place to park money... Yes there are people on this board who have that problem. They may want to invest in a safe place that offers security and accept a lower return.

If an outfitter does a superb job of finding and negotiating these things to conduct his business without owning them.... more power to him! If that allows him to be more competitive, great! This guy may challenge the other business model to find ways to be more competitive and ultimately that may lead to his greater profit.

This is Capitalism and ultimately the consumer wins!

 

[ActionBob]

I doubt those bloody tusks made it out of the field. Pretty sure some extra bribes to stay out of jail might be involved.

Pretty sure those were tusks taken by hunters and were at the taxidermist to be mounted and exported.. Some were going to Russia, South America, and parts of Europe. I think they ranged from 15-30 pounds. I could see maybe 30# in a last ditch effort to get a bull, but I saw a large amount of 15-20 pound youngsters around... I should not comment further on that but I have no reason to believe any thing illegal was involved. More on a competence level but I shouldn't judge as I was not there when they were shot.

 

[billc]

Ok this thread has gone around and around like some have said. I seem to be just one who has a problem with how things get said about lower priced hunts. Or how examples are based on some new guys starting up or some made up chart.I like to talk in facts not hear say or made up stats.

Maybe some of the problem is I am basing my points on hunts in SA. I have seen must of the cheap hunt problems being from zim and places like that. Yes I do understand scams happen in SA but I have heard more good storys then bad. Maybe that is just me but it is what I have heard for the must part.

I guess it will come down to me trying to help get the best deals I can for anyone who ask me for help. Be it cheaper or with guys only in the outfitting business for a short time. I am not worried about guys I help getting any less from there hunts. Everyone else if it gives you peace of mind to pay more go for it as there is plenty who will take your money and give you a great hunt to.

Hopeful this thread will help people looking for answers to making there africa dream happen.

 

[ActionBob]

Getting back to economics which is what started this thread;

Capitalism and the Free Market system seems to be very alive and well in the African hunting industry, and certainly in RSA! As I have stated before a few times, I surely hope it stays that way.. .You guys in Africa seem to have coined the Phrase "if it pays it stays" and I know there is some discussion and dissent over the details. But I think most of the people of rational thought will agree there has been a heck of a good business developed around hunting and that has lead to an astonishing amount of animals being present and even some brought back from the brink... Black Wildebeest has been thrown out as an example.

This has also created a situation where the "average guy" can actually afford to travel half the way around the World and experience an African hunting safari!!! Think about that, Comments have been made about how guys earning less than average are planning hunts! 100 years ago that was certainly not the case. Socialism and communism, nor imperialism certainly did not create that opportunity. Capitalism and competitiveness did that. I thank God it is alive and well.

My definition of pure Capitalism is that it will drive prices of goods and services towards the cost of production of them. That is always good for consumers in the long run as it rewards the most efficient producers of those goods and services.... Now in this instance, efficient services can be defined in many ways to many different people.. But the economic forces are there both demanding top service and prices. This is a continuing process that never stops nor rests in a large diverse industry.

Opportunity is always there in a true capitalist system as a new guy who has a better idea or plan is free to explore it an invest in it. And that freedom part of the system does not preclude the poor service provider nor the high cost provider from having the freedom to go out of business! In a theoretical perfect capitalist and free market system, half the participants would be above average and half below. That could mean that half are on their way out of business. Thus the fly by wind outfits do not last... But yet there is that elusive opportunity for the new guy. New businesses starting and old business' going out that have lost efficiency are a necessary part of this system. However the established business that has their efficiencies figured out yet continue to innovate and improve have the natural advantage. I think there are excellent examples of these types of operations all over the African Hunting industry and this is keeping it competitive and vibrant.

I hope it stays this way.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I doubt those bloody tusks made it out of the field. Pretty sure some extra bribes to stay out of jail might be involved.

I figured you'd remember that one. It set a new standard for the phrase Charlie Foxtrot.

 

[peras]

I like the way Actionbob explains things, I am totally for capitalism, a free market and competition, it brings the better out in all of us. I also honestly believe that Chris started this thread because of real concerns. After all whether it is Chris, Jaco or myself we all have a plan to stay in business for a long time. I am sure all of us have a great passion for the industry, proved by the fact that we spend so much time on forums like this.

I can tell you that there are vast differences in what all of us pay for animals at different farms, also due to capitalism. A few examples (I did not want to quote figures ,but here I go) :
- At one place I get Nyala for R12000 but another wants R35000(btw the better quality is at R12000)
-Kudu prices vary from R8000 to R20000 in our area, same quality
-Sable can be had from R45000 up to R75000 for the same quality bulls 20 minutes drive apart.

I do not own property and have no maintenance costs, I buy new vehicles with maintenance plans, thus I know exact cost to this.
Our area has a lot of local tourism, this is seasonal. During hunting season they all want to fill rooms, I negotiated top class lodges including meals,softdrinks and bottled water at R850 per day per person.

Now, this is for plainsgame and I am 80 miles from the airport saves a lot of fuel.
On the other hand lions are totally different from this plainsgame scenario, 90 percent of lion facilities are open to all outfitters, same land, same prices, same lions, same trackers it just depends how much profit you want to add. This will usually from my side be dependant on what other animals I can add to the hunt.

Hopefully the above clears the matter how I can deal with a dayrate of $250. 2015 is my fifth season as an outfitter , surely I will not do business if I charge the same dayfees as guys being in for 10 to 20 years.

By the way today is Jacos birthday have a good one!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Pieter it does, yet as mentioned earlier in my second post I did make it clear that all of our over heads are different and so are the hunting experiences, ie. one or two very large adjacent properties with no daily travel time, VS. Many hunting concessions, with in some cases several hours travel time per day.
Not referring to your operation but it is worth mentioning.
These amongst others all make a difference in experience, my cost to company per day for one client is more than double yours.

Point is quite simple and this is just my opinion, we can under sell and justify our experience (safari related) very easily, I just fear that we are cheapening our very precious commodity, Almost the same as the donation game.

(It has been proven that 80% of safari related complaints are from the above mentioned donations and super low cost safaris )and that should make us think, and is the only point I want to drive home.

Hey we can sell for what we want but should always keep in mind, everything gets more expensive, fuel in the last 15 years have increased 200 + % electricity, labour, bread, milk, bacon......
if you consider that 14 years ago I was marketing 1x1 pg safaris for $350 - $375 a day then something is out of wack, if we are selling at $250 now.... and something is way out of wack if $400 - $450 is considered expensive???

With current expenses and running costs I simply can not help but maintain one gets exactly what one pays for.

My best always

 

[peras]

QUESTION:

When considering a safari...

Are you looking for a 4star experience at 2 star rates? And if so - at whose expense does that come? Your own, the Outfitter's, his PH, Trackers, Skinners or somebody else? How long can an Outfitter who charges rates that doesn't cover his basic costs stay in business and if he manages to do so - how does he do it?

If the answer to the last question is: "It doesn't matter - as long as I have a good time I'm fine..." How comfortable would you as client feel about leaving a deposit for a hunt a year or more out with an Outfitter who barely charges enough to cover his daily expenses for a hunt...?

Or are you looking at the best value for money experience you can get without harming anyone - including yourself in the process?


Best regards,

I quote the original question that was posted which I answered as best as possible. Prooving that there are models to do this. I sincerely hope this will make clients more at ease.

I always explain that different properties will be hunted and how far they are apart, no catch here.

There is a segment for what I offer ,and I do not see myself competing outside this specific demographic.

The other side of cheapening this commodity is overvalueing it, this I state with the trend in game prices as per my previous post. I have had a lot of clients who never thought they could afford a safari after seeing ridiculously high pricing.
I have explained why the price of bacon, milk and electricity does not have a major effect on me.

We dwindled from the original question to exchange rates, electricity, property sizes etc.
I have never claimed to offer hunts that I do not.

I went out to answer the original question, yes it can be done, and yes a billion dollar cake is big enough for all of us to make a living out of the different sectors this cake is made up off.

As a last point I really respect guys voicing there concerns. I would have liked more of the guys who works in my pricing range to have joined in. The best thing for our industry is to be transparent.