A little food for thought - Pricing on African Hunting Safaris

[CAustin]

Hunthard has it right about some of the roads. I traveled in the Northwest area on roads that would jar your fillings out and the grass next to them in many areas had not been cut in years if ever. I'm talking bushes and pompas type grasses 12 feet tall. We drove it in the day time hours and I tell you I was worried something was going to run out of that stuff. Then I saw something I had never seen before......a sign that read "pot holes 20 km". Not that there were pot holes 20 km up the road no sir we are talking pot holes everywhere for the next 20 km. my PH was weaving all over the place to miss them but there were so many it was impossible to miss them all. Talk about a hard ride! Anyway to me a few minutes drive is no big deal at all. Even an hour shouldn't make that big of a difference!

 

[billc]

Some of that is true if he only has one 5000 acre lease.What happen when he has a 8000 acre place a few more over 5000 with in 30 minutes. Must outfitters who dont have one big lease use more the a few to get the job done and not be a put and take kind of place. Plus like you also said some areas can carry more animals then others can. I bet even the large leases dont want more the 25 kudu taken a year off there place.Different ways to get the same results is all.

As for the driving between areas that is no difference then what I do ever year elk hunting.May drive a hour or more to do a new area.I can tell you I dont drive during the daylight and give up my hunting time.Have been on many dirt runs I was not to sure what I was getting into here in the states also. Was not scared to be in the dark and I not sure there is much difference running into a 600lb elk or 600lb kudu when it hits your truck.Both would suck and not be much fun.

 

[TokkieM]

Bill, the really big guys have really,really big areas. Yes there are Outfitters in the EC that can take more than 25 Trophy Kudu off each year on their own property, but its far bigger than a couple 5000acre areas. I am not going to get into the costs to maintain a large area vs a small area, fencing on flat land vs mountians etc. If you have several smaller areas to hunt and travel is 30min through them to the next area and so on you are loosing 1hr one day times 7 days is just about one full hunting day gone. You paid for it.

We can debate it any way we want, large areas cost money but they have a far greater advantage than smaller areas. There is a reason monster Kudu and other species get shot in big areas, greater gene pool and more places to hide. 5000acres + 5000acres devided by 40 hunters per year = little hiding place. 60 000 acres devided by 40 hunters = great trophies and lots of hinding place.
There is a reason farm owners are switching to concervancies and pooling their properties. I have hunted every single combination we have thrown around and I honestly feel larger areas have more and better to offer, even if they cost more.
Nor I or anyone else here has a problem if someone can get what he wants for less money, I stack the deck in my and my clients favour by going the way I choose, that is my experiance. I pay for 5 or 10 or 14 full hunting days and the more I travel the less I hunt and the more it actually costs me calculated at dayfee paid and actual hours hunted, there is no getting around that.

 

[billc]

Not a debate over if large can be better or not. It is more on the examples used. You leave lodge 45 minutes before sunrise come back 1 hour in the dark. No hunting time lost at all. That is fact not some made up idea to suit me and my point. You dont hunt in the dark and you can drive though. I do think sometimes outfitters really dont understand the different kind of hunters who come from the states. Some maybe hate the idea of driving others will think nothing of it.

I have seen many pictures of animals coming from different sized ranches but sure cant say the big area has bigger trophies. I have hunted places from 20,000 to 3000 acres in SA and can honestly say trophy quality was equal. If managed right large and small area can put out big trophies. A 50" kudu is a 50" kudu no matter how big the leased land is.

 

[TokkieM]

Bill, the debate was about costs and large areas cost more and deliver better, if it was 50" Limpopo bulls then I can tell you that large areas have much better. If it was 50" pure EC bulls then you are lucky, last time I checked the taxidermists get one maybe two of those a year. I have shot my fair share of EC bulls and the better ones all come off large areas or areas were 1 or 2 bulls a year get taken off. I agree that it is possible to steal time from the dark, but the truth is no one has to do it if they hunt local large areas. I can think of better ways to spend 2 hours a day.As the debate is about cost you will then also understand trackers,skinners etc get paid extra to get up early and work a longer day, adding to the cost.

I dont think you fully realise the complications of travelling in the dark in Africa. Hitting a animal with my truck is the least of my concerns. What happens while broken down next to the road after dark is something different, even if it is just for a tyre swop. First and foremost my concern ,and I believe every Outfitter on here will agree, is the safety of my client,his family and my staff.To me personally saving 50$ per day is just not worth running around in the dark.

Been a nice chat Bill and thanks for the points you made, this is were I bow out and let it go.

Tokkie.

 

[James.Grage]

I have been on a safari where we would get up at 3 and or 4 AM (everyday) and travel to be at a site before sunrise looking for the species we were hunting. We would be in the field until noonish and sometimes return to camp for lunch. Other days we packed a lunch and had a mid-day siesta in the field. It really did not bother me at the time as I was on some medications and I was having trouble sleeping more that 3 to 4 hours a day. (Great stuff by the way, had more energy than I knew what to do with)

The long days become longer when you are hunting lion, leopard and bushpig. Now you have to be in the blind early in the AM waiting for sunrise or you are in the blind past sunset and sometimes all night long. Bush pig usually I have been in the blind early afternoon and we would sit until 1 AM. (Sitting time for bushpigs usually came off the trail cameras data, showing the times different groups came to bait)

I like my camp fire time as well as the best, however getting in around 9ish and eating late the sitting around the camp fire until 11ish and getting up at 3ish, could become a grind. At the time, I was 60ish and like I said the great stuff made this very doable. My work schedule was close at the time; I was getting up at 3ish AM and getting home around 5ish PM.

I have also been in safari camp getting my wakeup call at 6AM (camp manager (whoever) shouting time to get up) and having breakfast and hunting after a ¼ mile driving away from camp (camp no shooting zone).

As for windshield time, 60 minutes in the states is not the same as 60 minutes in Africa. I do not care how you or anyone cuts it. An vehicle accident in Africa will leave you walking and without a vehicle for a while, and maybe days, unless a replacement vehicle is found. (Good luck with that in some areas) How many persons on here have had to walk 10 or more miles back to camp, because your vehicle broke down or got stuck (beyond what you thought possible) and there was not any help within days drive? Do not forget you are packing your rifle and gear on the hike. You know you are part of the food chain and after sunset things can become interesting, in parts of Africa.

I am not sure how many on here have been on a hunting trip, where you had to start walking from camp to start your daily hunting experience. Evidently not many, from the way lite is being made of the, we will zip (drive) here and then we will zip (drive) over here to do a little drive through hunting. (Kind of remind you of purchasing some fast food doesn’t it)

Therefore, electing to move your hunting camps around is one thing; however, driving short or long distances to hunt different parcels of land is another?

What can I control while looking for an experience I am looking for?

 

[billc]

Thanks tokkie you have a great day and I hope you have a great year hunting.

James when I drive around hunting it is in no way like driving for fast food. Its a way of getting to were I want to get to. I have also hunted places in the states you would walk all day to get help. I guess I go in to my trips not worrying about what could happen to me.If it is going to happen it is going to happen. I live alot different then many when it come to that kind of stuff. I dont take anything lightly but sure will not let it stop me from doing something I want to do. Again that is talking hunting in SA not some country like zim or moz. Common sense goes along way when knowing if you can do something or what you can control.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Hey if you hunt in SA you have to hunt a concession every now and then, but racing up
and down from one trophy to the next will annoy the crap out of me,,,, (black top safari)

James my point exactly... A Walmart trip here and then one there and there you go 10 trophies in the bag... Not my cupa tea.

But each to his own.

My best always

 

[billc]

Jaco I come to your place to hunt will we drive at all.I want a black wildbeast and springbuck maybe a roan also.Plus a kudu and eland from your main ranch though

Love how some try and make the extreme points that are so rare it is not even funny.With the right list I dont care were you hunt you will be traveling some.

What will be the next point after the I cant have a great hunt for less money or a different business model works fails. No we have you may need to drive 15 to 30 minutes a day.

 

[jeff]

I don't have the fear of driving after dark in SA, 3 out 5 trips the outfitter picked me up at the airport after dark and we drove between 2 - 4 1/2 hours to get to the lodge and sometimes they had their wives and children with them. If it was extremely dangerous they wouldn't do it. As for driving between hunting areas, I personally like to see the area and culture, the whole experience is great, part of the experience. One hunt where we never left the home base of 22,000 acres I felt like I never got to see much of Africa. If one is bowhunting being in the hide at first light doesn't seem to be real important anyhow.

 

[ActionBob]

@Jaco Strauss have a grear Bday.

Pieter I cant offer the prices you do, just wont make any money that way, but it is good that you can offer what you do at the prices you do. Everyone has a place in the market,big or small. PH's in Limpopo may be happy to earn less, PH's in the EC may earn more due to other reasons (from what I see on here the day rate paid by Limpopo to the PH is less than in the EC, at least for what I work for)

I do agree with Jaco though on having large concessions, prices for good areas do increase the rates and as far as I am concerned also adds value to the clients hunt. If you hunt one large area for 7 days you are spending zero time looking at scenary flashing by the truck window, you hunt from the moment you leave camp till you arrive back. Multiple smaller areas means travel time, travel time means less time hunting. So if I pay 350$ a day and have no travel time inbetween or if I pay 250$ and have to spend 2 to 4 hours running between hunting areas I am paying the same money (my way of seeing it).

Cost should never be the only consideration when booking with a Outfitter. There are many more things for the client to think about and consider. I do however know that sometimes you get a little less when you pay a little less (no reflection on anyone here). It can go the otherway too, you may pay more for the same experiance. As a client myself sometimes I will pay more if I know what I am getting is what I am paying for. I pay for the whole experiance and that is only complete once my trophies are hanging on the wall back home.

I do have to agree with this and it sums it up nicely! But there can be another side.

On the other hand, if the hunting is truly free range, it can just be off for one reason or another in a certain area so I for one appreciate the outfitter and PH who has a backup plan in his pocket.

On my first hunt (in the EC) with what might considered a higher priced outfit; We did move around to 4 different areas and even the home area was so big we spent some time driving around to different parts of it... I never felt it was taking away from the hunt though... It simply took away from Sleep!

When we were going to an area a couple hours away, we got up 2 hours earlier. And drove back after dark or in the heat of the day so we did not miss prime hunting time. There were actually facilities to handle the meat in various places so that was pretty efficient as well.

On my second trip we ended up literally getting worn down, heck beaten down, with the long drives... But I was glad to have the option. It was not that the hunting was so bad near the camp, and I literally ended up shooting my elephant 200 yards behind camp, and a buffalo within a mile or two... But the animals were not moving as expected earlier on and rather than do nothing productive, we went to another area within the concession. Just happened to be one darned big concession! We literally did watch scenery flash by.

 

[BRICKBURN]

..........

I don't have the fear of driving after dark in SA, .............

...........

If it was extremely dangerous they wouldn't do it. ........

Perhaps you are both crazy!

"At least 1,475 people were killed on South Africa’s roads during the festive season, Transport Minister Sibusiso Ndebele said on Monday."

 

[billc]

..........

...........


Perhaps you are both crazy!

"At least 1,475 people were killed on South Africa’s roads during the festive season, Transport Minister Sibusiso Ndebele said on Monday."

how many of those were hunters and outfitters? How many used common sense and were just not drunk or just stupid.

With common sense you can drive in SA just like you do here in the states. Living in fear of such stupid stuff makes no sense to me at all. I could walk out side tomorrow and get hit by a car or get hit will driving my truck so should I give up driving.

 

[BRICKBURN]

how many of those were hunters and outfitters? How many used common sense and were just not drunk or just stupid.

With common sense you can drive in SA just like you do here in the states. Living in fear of such stupid stuff makes no sense to me at all. I could walk out side tomorrow and get hit by a car or get hit will driving my truck so should I give up driving.

Bill,
"Reductio ad absurdum" on your part is not reasonable and you just finished accusing Jaco of the same type of argument. You can't have it both ways.

I'll help you with the statistics.
You are probably a minimum of 6 to 8 times more likely to die from a road accident in RSA than the USA (conservatively speaking). Being prudent is not living in fear of something.

Did you send your son to hunt a lion without backup or perhaps armed with a spear? After all the Masai do it; It must be reasonable!

I have been through the most dangerous localities in South Africa with someone who knew exactly what he was doing. Would I do it myself? Not a bloody hope in the world. PRUDENT.

Take the facts into consideration.

To have some fun with generalizations:
By the way if you drive like you do in the states you will be dead within a few miles. They drive on the other side of the road in RSA!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Jaco I come to your place to hunt will we drive at all.I want a black wildbeast and springbuck maybe a roan also.Plus a kudu and eland from your main ranch though

Love how some try and make the extreme points that are so rare it is not even funny.With the right list I dont care were you hunt you will be traveling some.

What will be the next point after the I cant have a great hunt for less money or a different business model works fails. No we have you may need to drive 15 to 30 minutes a day.

Wahaha first of all I am not some..... I am quite special (not little bus special but special) but still quite special

See Billc I have been fortunate to come through a learning curve, from an apprentice ship in Zim through 2 outfitters to where I am today, I am simply stating what I have experienced and what clients tell me, so in fact these cases are not extremes, operations do run like that, actually I would say it's close to a 50/50 split if not more.

I combine black wildebeest and springbuck on hunts that I do in the Kalahari yes, and no I don't drive out to these areas while hunting our base lodges, logistically it does not make sense (same as my mathematical approach) outfitters should operate within they're means.
Roan we have, the rest aswell I don't even have springbuck on my price list.

So I hunt directly from camp with pretty much 100000 adjacent bordering acres and all hunting is conducted on foot, we also do not shoot from the truck.......not ever.... Combined = never

I am not the Walmart of hunting no, those who choose to be it is they're choice, and some like it.....I DO NOT.

A common business principle I learnt long ago was when one works it should be at 200% tempo and equal dedication this who have hunted with me I believe they will vouch for this, but the goal should be to work less and earn more, to be quite honest if I need to be one of these 125 - 250 client operations a season I will go bananas I've been there it's not pretty, I hunt for 200 plus days of the year already.

My best always.

 

[jeff]

..........

...........


Perhaps you are both crazy!

"At least 1,475 people were killed on South Africa’s roads during the festive season, Transport Minister Sibusiso Ndebele said on Monday."

So I take it that you never drive after dark in SA ? I will say that just about everyone I've ridden with in SA drives to fast and takes to many chances passing, but that's even in the daytime! There are about 45 million people in SA, do the math and see what percent got killed' even when you consider the festive season with extra drinking and such, it doesn't seem to warrant that type of fear!

 

[jeff]

Also BrickBurn I never said it wasn't with some danger, I said it wasn't EXTREMLY dangerous. I guess our definition of extreme varies.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

........the goal should be to work less and earn more.....
My best always.

Jaco, honestly I have to say that this is without a doubt something that us Outfitters in the Eastern Cape can learn from you boys in the Limpopo. Personally, I don't think you guys up there know much , but I was speaking to another outfitter down here, and we have to give it to you, you fellas know how to operate.

Regarding the dangers of driving during the dark, I took out roadside assistance through Smith and Wesson.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

I never felt unsafe driving with Marius or Warren after dark when I hunted with KMG last year.
Maybe it is because I am to stupid to be afraid for my own health
It is a good chance it is so as I have been in some rather shitty areas of both the Philippines and Colombia without being scared.

But when I saw how some people acted on the road in South Africa, both when driving and walking, I am not surprised a few pedestrians get flattened now and then.

 

[billc]

Bill,
"Reductio ad absurdum" on your part is not reasonable and you just finished accusing Jaco of the same type of argument. You can't have it both ways.

I'll help you with the statistics.
You are probably a minimum of 6 to 8 times more likely to die from a road accident in RSA than the USA (conservatively speaking). Being prudent is not living in fear of something.

Did you send your son to hunt a lion without backup or perhaps armed with a spear? After all the Masai do it; It must be reasonable!

I have been through the most dangerous localities in South Africa with someone who knew exactly what he was doing. Would I do it myself? Not a bloody hope in the world. PRUDENT.

Take the facts into consideration.

To have some fun with generalizations:
By the way if you drive like you do in the states you will be dead within a few miles. They drive on the other side of the road in RSA!

Giving the other side of a disagreement does not make me unreasonable. I guess that is just me.

As for 6 to 8 times more likely to get killed driving. I can live with the .000009 % chance of that happening to me.Just a made up number by me. Just saying the odds are still real small.

AS for the lion and spear or no back up. Not legal so could not do it anyway.

I take the facts I know are real and have done when posting not what I read or heard from others.

I will agree with they drive on the other side of the road or what I think is the wrong side.LOL

Once again I am not saying anyone is wrong at all. Trying to show one can do a hunt how I am talking about have a great hunt and be safe. I think that is reasonable to do on a hunting site like this.