458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott

[Aussie_Hunter]

Aussie hunter asked "Why is there so much arguing back and forth about this? "

My guess? So each side of argument can defend their purchase decision? ( ie Be right and win argument).

Since I do not own either caliber and have no horse in the race,

Hahaha yep pretty much!

 

[CoElkHunter]

Hahaha yep pretty much!

.458WM! You can find inexpensive cases everywhere! AND, if you get bored, you can neck the cases down to .416 and like magic, you now have the .416 Taylor! Good enough for all the Sambar deer, scrub bulls, buffalo, camels and donkeys you want to shoot in OZ! Ha! Ha!

 

[DrBob]

Bernard,

as far as my knowledge, the Winchester model 70 .458 cannot be converted to a lott (expensive way, you just can buy a converted one for much cheaper!!)...and assume this is the Winchester you referring to...Guy's correct me if i am wrong.

I am hunting with the Model 70 .458 for the last 10 years with NO problems!!

Pieter,

Do round about that fps on a 450grainer, 500gr about 2050fps...and still KILLS!!

Mechanically it is easy to convert a Model 70 to Lott... The "hard" part is having a gunsmith use a 458 Lott reamer to rechamber. The easy part is swapping out parts of the magazine, ejector and bolt stop to those used in 375 H&H. Win 70 receiver is same for 458 as for 375 and 416 Rem Mag. Somewhere in the archives here is a copy of my article in Magnum Magazine where I swapped parts and loaded 458 out to Lott length (458XL). But my suggestion is ... just stay with 458 with modern loads and powders... or buy the 416 Rem Mag version of the Model 70.

 

[WAB]

I have a M70 covered from .458 WM to .458 Lott. It works flawlessly.

 

[TNDave]

I’ve got a 458WM at the smith right now being converted to a Lott. Picked up a new Winchester 70 at a very reasonable price and the conversion cost is very affordable.

 

[WAB]

I have a M70 covered from .458 WM to .458 Lott. It works flawlessly.

Converted, spell check got me again! I should add that is was an easy and inexpensive conversion. Winchester really helped out by building the new crf win mags in the magnum length action.

 

[Will 416]

Converted, spell check got me again! I should add that is was an easy and inexpensive conversion. Winchester really helped out by building the new crf win mags in the magnum length action.

Hi WAB, I live in south Alabama and was highly considering a Mod 70 conversion to either a lott or a 404j. If you have time in the near future, would you pm me some details on your lott conversion? I am particularly interested in who you would recommend to do the conversion, rough idea of cost, which mod 70 works best to convert, parts needed for conversion, and any recommendations on upgrades while at the smith (mercury reducers, recoil pads, triggers, etc.)? I have a CZ550 in 416 Rigby, but very interested in a Lott because short of paying for their #3 package (AHR supplied stock), AHR is a bit limited on what they will do to the factory stock on my Rigby. I am also somewhat partial to the mod 70. It is a hard choice since I like my 416 so much, but I guess one more rifle won’t hurt.

 

[shark_za]

Sorry for coming into this conversation so late; I would guess the original poster has found a solution already?
Without reading the whole thread I would guess the bottom line is getting the .458 to perform like it was intended. This has again changed since we are able to buy American powders and bullets and are not limited to the old Somchem stuff anymore.

I have a few friends who work in dangerous game guiding and they all made working rifles in .458 - 3 inch on CZ 550's.
Reamers are available in country and many gunsmiths can do this for you down here. I guess today you can just get a .458WM and load it with the right powder and be happy.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

.458WM! You can find inexpensive cases everywhere! AND, if you get bored, you can neck the cases down to .416 and like magic, you now have the .416 Taylor! Good enough for all the Sambar deer, scrub bulls, buffalo, camels and donkeys you want to shoot in OZ! Ha! Ha!

hahaha why would I want to waste all my time doing that? I have a 458 Lott

 

[WAB]

Hi WAB, I live in south Alabama and was highly considering a Mod 70 conversion to either a lott or a 404j. If you have time in the near future, would you pm me some details on your lott conversion? I am particularly interested in who you would recommend to do the conversion, rough idea of cost, which mod 70 works best to convert, parts needed for conversion, and any recommendations on upgrades while at the smith (mercury reducers, recoil pads, triggers, etc.)? I have a CZ550 in 416 Rigby, but very interested in a Lott because short of paying for their #3 package (AHR supplied stock), AHR is a bit limited on what they will do to the factory stock on my Rigby. I am also somewhat partial to the mod 70. It is a hard choice since I like my 416 so much, but I guess one more rifle won’t hurt.

Gary Junk of Arctic Gunworks in Fairbanks, AK did the metal work on my Lott, .375 H&H, 325 WSM and .300 H&H. Specifically to the Lott:
- rifle began life as one of the new M70 crf's in .458 WM.
- metal work:
- barrel shortened to 22"
- barrel banded front sight with flip up night sight installed
- new island mounted express sight installed (non-adjustable, file to required elevation, reduces moving parts to mess up)
- barrel banded sling swivel installed
- barrel re-chambered to .458 Lott. Research this item, there are some critical dimensions in the throat. The wrong angle can produce pressure problems. Not a big deal, just has to be done right!
- I am not certain, but I believe that all Gary had to do was replace the magazine with that from a .375 H&H. I don't believe that the feed rails required mod, but again, I am not 100% certain.
- all metal teflon coated satin black. I am not certain I would do this again. It was really done out of habit as I had to do it on my .375. It is used for coastal hunting in Alaska, and even though it was SS, you get surface rust after a day in the salt. Not to mention, I hate the appearance of SS rifles, so satin black is a big upgrade over matte SS for me personally!
- stock work:
- LeRoy Barry of Canyon Creek Custom Gunstocks made a new stock. This was obviously not necessary as the original stock worked great. I just like great walnut. On a side note, LeRoy does Wayne's stock work at AHR, so if you like Wayne's work, you like LeRoy's!

Gary is semi-retired in Fairbanks. As I understand it, he will still take on this type of 'interesting' work. He just doesn't want to deal with the local yokels who have buggered their scope mounts any more. LeRoy has done some metal work for me on a custom 7x57. It is absolutely flawless, so I would not hesitate to use him for the conversion. However, I would work with him on the chamber dimensions to be sure you get the right angle in the throat. I don't know if he has done this conversion or not.

Total cost for the metal work by Gary was somewhere around $1,400 if memory serves me correctly. Obviously much of it was not required for a simple re-chamber. Basically, I built the rifle I think the M70 should be to begin with (with the addition of some ridiculous walnut).

By the way Will 416, I live about an hour out of Birmingham. If you get up this way you are welcome to see and shoot this rifle (my rifle range is 100 yds from my house). I will post a pic of my three custom M70's shortly.

Bill

 

[WAB]

Here are my custom M70’s, top to bottom; 7x57, .375 H&H, .458 Lott. All built on the new CRF action as I prefer it to the pre 64.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Here are my custom M70’s, top to bottom; 7x57, .375 H&H, .458 Lott. All built on the new CRF action as I prefer it to the pre 64.

View attachment 329360

Love the lot and the Lott in particular.

 

[Will 416]

Those are some fine mod 70’s!!! The walnut is especially beautiful on that 375! I believe that I have spoken to you before and you have been an excellent source of info over the last year or two (since I got bitten by the Africa hunting bug) I will definitely try and schedule a time to meet up in the future! And thank you for all of the information.

 

[tigris115]

Have there been any head on tests with the 2 cartridges to see which ones are better in different aspects?

 

[WAB]

Have there been any head on tests with the 2 cartridges to see which ones are better in different aspects?

Good question. I’m not sure what you’d test other than shooting a whack of big nasties with them. It seems that you are talking about the difference of launching a 500 gr projectile at 2050/2100 or 2300. I suspect that with the reliability of modern powders in the WM, they can both be relied on. I love my Lott but I can’t tell you from personal experience whether it is decisively more lethal than the WM.

 

[tigris115]

Good question. I’m not sure what you’d test other than shooting a whack of big nasties with them. It seems that you are talking about the difference of launching a 500 gr projectile at 2050/2100 or 2300. I suspect that with the reliability of modern powders in the WM, they can both be relied on. I love my Lott but I can’t tell you from personal experience whether it is decisively more lethal than the WM.

I think having a checklist of the following to measure aptitude along with some other ballistics crap
- Speed
- Punching power (ballistic gel and steel plates)
- Consistent performance in non-optimal conditions

 

[TOBY458]

From what I understand, the 458 WM loaded with 450gr Barnes Banded Solids @2300fps will penetrate the complete skull of a bull Elephant from any angle. If a Lott was loaded with a 500 grain Solid at the same velocity, would the other Elephant standing beside the first one be any deader? Huh? What?

 

[Royal27]

From what I understand, the 458 WM loaded with 450gr Barnes Banded Solids @2300fps will penetrate the complete skull of a bull Elephant from any angle. If a Lott was loaded with a 500 grain Solid at the same velocity, would the other Elephant standing beside the first one be any deader? Huh? What?

 

[Forrest Halley]

The Lott doesn't have to down shift in bullet weight to retain velocity. After a certain point, everything is penetrable. The argument is likely moot, but .458 Willit Makeit folks are fun to rile up with their little 2.5" maracas doing the anti clumping dance. I'd certain shoot the WM...in my Lott...for target practice.

 

[TOBY458]

The Lott doesn't have to down shift in bullet weight to retain velocity. After a certain point, everything is penetrable. The argument is likely moot, but .458 Willit Makeit folks are fun to rile up with their little 2.5" maracas doing the anti clumping dance. I'd certain shoot the WM...in my Lott...for target practice.

Not sure if you've noticed, but in the loading manuals the Lott beats the WM by less than 100 fps in most cases. And those loads are usually around 109% load density. Now who's doing the clumping dance???