458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott

[35bore]

Lott requires a magnum length action (just like the 375). OAL is too long for the std length of the 458WM action. You'd have to seat the bullets so deep it would be like loading the 458 WM.

The OP was based on his choice of a CZ in Lott or a model 70 in WM. The 70 has the length. That's all I was basing my statement on. I'm sure the CZ would as well, I would have to look at their specs.

 

[gordon-kruger]

Matt, the 416 Rigby shooting a 400 gr Hornady RN at 2300 fps compare to 458 W.M 400 gr Federal T-B bearclow, 2260 fps. Furthermore regarding energy joules at 300 meter, both of them delivery 3200 E/J.

And for bullet drop : Both zero at 80 m the .416 drop 81 cm and the 458 W.M 82 cm....

The .416 is a bit longer and smaller diameter but this have effect on much longer distance that you even thing of to shooting in Africa !

And I can guarantee that a buffalo will definitely never feel the difference...

 

[Badboymelvin]

Quote;
"if your a hand loader then there no reason to buy a 458 WM. the 458 Lott is superior in every way when it comes to hand loading. you could do a 500gr bullet at 2150 or your could do a 400gr bullet at 2300. there isnt any reason to restrict yourself with a smaller cartridge."


I happen to think the exact opposite is true. The Lott is a answer to a question that no longer exists..
The Lott was designed solely to get 2150fps from a 500gr bullet because SIXTY OR SO YEARS AGO there was some difficulty in getting that speed from the WM.
Now in 2015 there is no such problem and it can be done in a standard action. If you have a WM in a magnum length action (like the CZ) then just seat the long 500-550gr bullets out to Lott length and crimp with a LFC die.
I know a lot of people load the Lott down to 2150fps but the WM can also do this and stay under max pressure..
With top loads The Lott has around 10% more case capacity and according to the law of ballistics that's around 4% more velocity. No one will ever convince me that 4% more velocity with the same projectile will kill any better than one 4% less velocity with a well placed shot.
If someone wants more the WM, why settle for one that gives a mere 4% more velocity?? especially if you already have a long action and can seat the bullet out further anyway if you want. The WM then turns into a Lott.
If I wanted more than the WM I'd go for something noticeably more powerful like the .460, Ackley etc...

It also makes me wonder that if Jack hadn't fluffed his shot on the buff with the .458 (which he admitted he did and at the time didn't blame the rifle) and had've put the bullet where it counted, we wouldn't be having this conservation...

 

[CTDolan]

We wouldn't be having this conversation had Winchester gone full length in the first place. But, they didn't, and because of early ballistics suffered.

The paradigm has since shifted, I will admit, but it will take a while for the community at large to shift alongside (myself incuded, who happens to like the Lott, because with an extra 0.300", comes no question).

 

[Daga Boy]

Bottom line in this discussion is that a Lot (excuse the pun) comes down to whether you are buying new or working with an existing rifle.
If existing then the action length is the determinant. If standard your options with the WM are limited. Best is to drop to 480gr or 450gr monometal. 450gr banded monometal can yield around 2300fps with no pressure issues.
I also know hunters who swear by 400gr bullets. You can get these going really fast and I would think they would be fine on everything save for elephant, but 450gr upwards makes more sense to me as a general heavy gun.
In a long action like a CZ you can actually load the WM to Lott length or so close as to make no difference. You just have to be careful not to seat the bullet too far out, so restricted to heavier bullets for this "trick".
If buying a new rifle then the Lott probably has the nod; however standard WM's can make for significantly handier weapons on account of the shorter action. Also bear in mind that the .450 Rigby is way better than either.
Both the .458 African (shortened .404 case) and the .458 Sabi (Shortened .500 Jeffrey case) give very good results in standard length actions - as in exceeding the performance of the Lott but using a standard length action.
BTW: Lets not forget the issue of recoil! A full power WM load is about as much as most people can deal with using an average weight rifle. As you go up the scale the recoil becomes more and more of an issue, so you either have to make the rifle very heavy or add a muzzle brake - which I detest.

 

[TOBY458]

Bottom line in this discussion is that a Lot (excuse the pun) comes down to whether you are buying new or working with an existing rifle.
If existing then the action length is the determinant. If standard your options with the WM are limited. Best is to drop to 480gr or 450gr monometal. 450gr banded monometal can yield around 2300fps with no pressure issues.
I also know hunters who swear by 400gr bullets. You can get these going really fast and I would think they would be fine on everything save for elephant, but 450gr upwards makes more sense to me as a general heavy gun.
In a long action like a CZ you can actually load the WM to Lott length or so close as to make no difference. You just have to be careful not to seat the bullet too far out, so restricted to heavier bullets for this "trick".
If buying a new rifle then the Lott probably has the nod; however standard WM's can make for significantly handier weapons on account of the shorter action. Also bear in mind that the .450 Rigby is way better than either.
Both the .458 African (shortened .404 case) and the .458 Sabi (Shortened .500 Jeffrey case) give very good results in standard length actions - as in exceeding the performance of the Lott but using a standard length action.
BTW: Lets not forget the issue of recoil! A full power WM load is about as much as most people can deal with using an average weight rifle. As you go up the scale the recoil becomes more and more of an issue, so you either have to make the rifle very heavy or add a muzzle brake - which I detest.

I agree. If Heavy weight rifles and muzzle brakes are needed to cope with recoil, I believe you should step down to a caliber you can handle in a rifle that is comfortable to carry all day. For most people that is 375 or 416.
I've owned a few 458's over the years and I feel that the 458 WM recoil is similar to a 416 Rem Mag with full loads. Neither one is particularly comfortable to shoot in a light rifle, but they're not so bad that they can't be mastered with some practice.

 

[Timbo]

When I got my 458 Win Mag the Lott was still a wildcat. But after working out its' optimum load - 72gr of AR2206H behind Woodleigh 500gr RNSN OR FMJ - it's superbly accurate - off the bench I get clover leaf groups at 60yds. This load is very effective: everything to date being one shot kills (touch wood!): and the PH on my last hunt can attest to the last 4 trophies taken. Long ago I restocked my rifle in timber with a cast, put a fixed Weaver scope on it (backed by a Williams peep sight) and now that she's been tamed, it's a very sweet rifle to shoot.

I like the 458WM not least because it's the same action length as my 30/06 and 9.3x62 - so there's little chance I'll short-stroke the bolt - but because it has proven that it's got all the wallop I need for DG. This may be the pivotal criteria that determines which calibre you decide - which one can you shoot the best, and most comfortably?

As far as the WM v Lott debate goes: sure the Lott may have a bit more case capacity, but Lott believed he saw a flaw in the 458WM, and produced the Lott. Also it'd be handy to use 458WM ammo when pressed. But despite this, the 458WM has over the past 60yrs, proved time and time again it's more than adequate for hunting dangerous game - and I'm sure that legacy will continue.

 

[Daga Boy]

Yep, a 416 Remington and a 458 with full power loads kick about the same, and both tend to be too much for hunters who are not accustomed. To heavy recoil in average rifles. My cz550 weighs around 9 lbs and it belts with full power 500gr loads .
400-450gr loads give less felt recoil.
I carry 480 or 500gr as my 458 is used as guide and back up weapon, but I know many guys who hunt with 450gr bullets - mostly mono memetal.
If you use a compact bullet like the 400 or 450gr swift you can get more than enough V0 out of a standard length wm load. Either us more than enough for all general purpose hunting.
Bear in mind that either of these loans is about 25% up on a 375H&H ito energy.

 

[Daga Boy]

While I am at it, note that the debate about penetration and bullet performance generally is sterile unless we add range and make and style of bullet to the equation. One also needs to think about how much penetration you really want.
Another thing is recoil.

For instance Matt expresses the view that the .416 will outperform the .458 ito penetration in equal weights. This may be true as .416 bullets do tend to penetrate very well, but terminal performance varies from bullet to bullet. Also bear in mind that one of the criticisms of the .416 calibres is a tendency to "over-penetrate". To put this in proper perspective, .416's are known to go clean through a Cape Buff, sometimes resulting in accidental killing or wounding of a second animal. I also know of one instance in which an escaping Buff was shot in the rump with a .416 and the bullet exited the dewlap. A 400gr .458 bullet may not penetrate quite like this, but instances in which this is called for (or even desirable) are very limited.

At the other end of the scale, it is true that bullets which perform well at impact velocities of say 2000fps may not perform well at say 2300 fps . This has been seen time and again in examples 9.3 x 62 vs 9.3 x 64, 375 H&H post cordite, etc. Thus, while a .460 Weatherby is a lot more powerful than a .458WM it may not do as well at close range unless loaded with a very heavy bullet. In fact I once met a chap who was wanting to sell his .460 Weatherby after an encounter with an elephant in which he shot it about 10 times at fairly close range. He told me that he started getting a "white out" with every shot after about the 3rd or 4th, that his nose started bleeding after a while and that he eventually became dizzy and couldn't see properly even between shots (symptoms of concussion). As to the elephant, it apparently did more or less nothing after the first shot and eventually fell over. He didn't say anything about the bullets but I suspect that a degree of bullet failure (eg fishtailing and/or bending) must have been an issue.

 

[WAB]

Funny but I realized that I’ve never shot a .458 WM. I’m sure they are great rifles. However, I have shot my .458 Lott extensively. It is superbly accurate, lethal and manageable. I’ll stick with it.

I am a little amused by all the hype over recoil. I suggest that anyone shopping for anew rifle try one out. If it’s too much fine, but I will be very surprised if that is the case in most instances.

 

[BenKK]

I really like the .458WM. Never tried a Lott.

My M70 .458WM knocked-over several great buffalo bulls plus a huge scrub bull and boar, and solved a few problem situations.

Now I’m looking-forward to building a Mauser .458WM.

I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading books by three different Zimbabwean Parks Rangers who clocked over ten-thousand ele between them, who were quite cheerful about the .458WM.

 

[Daga Boy]

Felt recoil is partly a function of rifle build and fit and partly subjective.
Basically a heavier rifle kicks less than a lighter one all else being equal. Given the forces and speeds involved a pound or so can make a big difference. Weight distribution also makes a difference, but you can only go so far with that. A rifle which is barrel heavy will have less recoil but it will not handle as well as a rifle with neutral balance - so its a trade off.
Stock design is also important. Basically the stock must fit well and have a good cheek-piece and a decent pad. Things like the amount of drop and the angle of the butt plate/pad also have a big effect.
Many people find the standard CZ stock unpleasant because the rifle tends to rotate up into the shooter's face. This can be addressed by altering the angle of the butt and re-working the comb a bit.
The best option on heavy calibres, is a custom stock - as in made to fit and designed to tame recoil. The difference can be pretty amazing. Naturally that level of comfort comes at a price.
Practice also makes a big difference.
All of that having been said, some people are just recoil sensitive so for them a lighter calibre is the only real option. All the power and KO factor in the world is of no use if the shooter flinches and misses!

 

[Daga Boy]

Most CZ .458's can actually accommodate a COL same as the Lott.
The only issue you will have is that there will not be enough of the bullet left in the case for proper security.
With a 450gr monometal you can bank on around 2300fps. This doesn't require extraordinary COL and its more than enough for any buff. hippo whatever.
If you don't like that solution then try a 480gr flat nosed bullet. you should be able to get about 2200 with appropriate propellant. That's enough for anything at normal DG ranges.

 

[CBH Australia]

The following is my view of the two cartridges formed by 6 years of field use of the Lott cartridge as my primary back-up gun on buffalo hunts in Arnhemland, Northern Australia.
I claim no practical field experience with Elephant.

Ballistics;
Despite what some would like to think, it is simply illogical to expect that a case which is 2.5” in length (Win Mag) can achieve similar ballistics to a case which is 2.8” long, given equal bullet weights and operating pressures.

In saying that, and in answer to the original question, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the .458 Win mag, just as it is.
Just ask Richard Harland !

The problematic load issues experienced with this cartridge (Win mag) have long since become redundant with modern powders.

Personally, I think, that with the current crop of modern projectiles available, specifically 5th and 6th generation projectiles as categorized by Pierre van der Walt in his book; African Dangerous Game Cartridges, .458 Win Mag users would be much better served by the use of the 450gn projectiles as opposed to the 500gn, which the Win mag struggles with a little.

Many vigilant handloaders will tell you it is quite possible to get 2150fps with the 500gn (Win mag), and this is true, but that will be from a 24” barrel only and running very close to maximum field reliable pressures in any climates.

Judicially loaded, and with a 22” barrel, the Lott will do 2250fps with the same bullet at much less pressure.

Many will argue if that 100fps translates into very much noticeable difference in the field and I would argue that that extra 100fps difference puts a .45 caliber, 500gn projectile into a very different performance category when specifically relating to buffalo, given that it has the structural integrity to sustain the impact velocity attained.

In seemingly contradiction to the above statement, there is very little, if any, visual difference between the Win mag loaded a quality 450gn projectile such as a C.E.B or North Fork loaded to 2250fps and a Lott loaded with a similar constructed projectile weighing 500gns at the same velocity !

My personal choice given the two options has always been the Lott, purely because I can get the velocity I know impacts hard on buffalo (2250fps), particularly in stressful situations, with reasonable pressures from a handy 22” (or shorter !) barrel, which to me is vital on a back-up gun.
Apologies for the long winded rant, above is my view only.
Regards,
Paul.

I note in your next post that you recommend CEB and North fork? any thoughts on Woodleighs? i have them already
I have a .458WM and thought of going to a Lott, ive read here that you can seat bullets out further and maybe have the throat reamed without doing the Lott.
No DG experience but keen on the idea. My thing with my CZ550 in .458WM is maybe the magazine is to long for the little fat cartridges . I feel they may be better seated longer , I hear them rattle when i have 2 left in the magazine. Ive heard they might need work on the rails to get them or a lott to feed better.
The other option was I wanted to trade and get a .375H&H, i think the longer bullets will feed better and a .375 should do all i need if i do my bit, in the case of a poor shot then I hope my backup is a Lott.

 

[CBH Australia]

Also im thinking that re-chambering etc may be cheaper than changing rifles and getting further gear etc.
i have a gunsmith in mind

 

[PaulT]

Chris, these days with the powders and projectiles we have available I, personally, would not bother spending money rechambering a Winmag to Lott.

As mentioned previously, the CZ platform allows you to seat projectiles to a longer COL which with judicial handloading will allow you to get within 50fps of the Lott with comparable pressures.

I found it difficult to get my Lotts much past the 2280fps with hunting loads anyway.
You should be able to get 2200 - 2250 with a long COL Win mag that has been loaded properly and this IS ENOUGH FOR ANYTHING so long as you have loaded a quality projectile.

Woodlieghs are fine for most situations, my only problem with them was on full frontal charge stopping shots at extreme close range (20yds and less) they tended to fold up rather quickly under the full steam velocity of the Lott cartridge, which limited penetration.
I saying that I did manage to stop (deter and deflect) a number of charges from buffalo and Scrub bulls with the Woodliegh soft points.

If you insist on using Woodlieghs keep them at or under 2200fps and for hunting they should function as designed.

 

[Daga Boy]

Regarding CBH's question/concern, I have not experienced any feeding problems with my CZ in .458WM.
I know that they are generally rough out of the box but this is easily sorted.
I do know of people who have experienced feeding problems with the Lott. This is because of the longer case and the absence of a shoulder; however it shouldn't be a problem with CZ as the standard mag actually takes a .458 3".
With a long bullet (500gr Hornady RN) you can safely load the .458WM to a COL of 87.5mm/3.44" in a CZ Just be sure to use a Lee Factory crimp. Alternatively you can cement the bullets into place, although I haven't tried that myself.
My Peregrine 450gr loads come out to shade over 3.3" and the case mouth is aligned with a groove, so no issues with crimping. Velocity is around 2300fps with the standard length barrel.
The Woodleighs are not highly regarded for hot loads at close range as they are relatively soft. Most people over here opt for monometals these days, but a strong bonded bullet like the Swift A Frame also does the job.
Flat nosed designs (like the Peregrine) are preferred for heavy animals at close range.
If you want the rifle to shoot flatter then opt for a bullet with a higher BC. Both the Swift and the Barnes work well in that role.
The only reason I would convert my .458 would be to get the same or slightly better performance out of a shorter barrel . If one goes that route then the .450 Rigby is the best way to go (over here). Other good options are .450 Dakota and .458 Sabi. Also the .458 African, but that is not as powerful as the other two . These heavy hitters are favoured by a number PH's and rangers/professional cullers who are often forced to shoot large animals (including elephants) at odd angles. Bear in mind though that these are very powerful cartridges which are really beyond what is actually required for most sport hunting applications. Recoil is severe, so the rifles need to be fairly heavy in order to be manageable. Recoil reducers may also be required. In fact rifles this powerful ideally need to be custom built/stocked - which makes this an expensive option.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

Man this is a really weird thread to read haha Why is there so much arguing back and forth about this? I just don't get it. In this day and age a WM is generally a 500 grain bullet at around 2050-2100fps and the Lott is generally a 500 grain bullet at 2300fps, so what's all the drama about!? hahaha

Will both work on any animal walking the planet, yep!

 

[Forrest Halley]

The resurrection just to argue about it makes me laugh. I shoot the LONGER caliber in the debate, so I don't care what the clumpy short chopped compensators have to say about it. Get a .375 H&H and a .458 Lott and you'll never worry for ammunition and the argument could be made for Weatherby after that .375 for maximum overlap.

 

[crs]

Aussie hunter asked "Why is there so much arguing back and forth about this? "

My guess? So each side of argument can defend their purchase decision? ( ie Be right and win argument).

Since I do not own either caliber and have no horse in the race,