458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott

[jand]

Before I got my 500 , my CZ 458 win mag was my work rifle. It never failed me . I still use it from time to time and some of my Buffalo hunters use it with great success.

 

[TokkieM]

I used 458 Win ammo in my Lott often on the range, I use to own a CZ and the problem with feeding you mention could only be due to the 458Win ammo moving around in the magazine and jamming up in there. I did manage to sort mine out to fire both the 458Win and Lott without any problems, as said before headspace is on the belt. Nothing wrong with the 458Win.

 

[Velo Dog]

as far as big recoil goes, you don't have to load the 458 Lott full tilt. it can very easily be loaded to 2150fps by hand loading. with the Lott you would be able to start at 2150fps and work your way up until you find your limit for recoil.


-matt

+1 with Matt85 on this and I do load my Lott down to that, because the full pressure factory live .458 Lott ammunition (about 2300 fps/500 grain bullet) is a bit much for me in recoil.
However, reduced by almost 200 fps, the difference in felt recoil is quite a bit.
That leaves me with the same very effective punch of the good old .450 NE but in a 5 shot repeater (mine is a custom bolt action, based on the CZ 550 Magnum action).
Then as Matt said, if you want more velocity, you can always work your way up the power scale until you reach your threshold of recoil tolerance (my threshold is as described above).

 

[matt85]

i like to see the 458 Lott the same way i see my 505 Gibbs. they are cartridges that provide wiggle room for hand loaders. for my 505 Gibbs i could load a 525gr bullet at 2150fps or a 600gr bullet at 2400+fps its up to me what i want to do with it. the 458 WM is a great cartridge that is a proven killer but when it comes to hand loading your limited in what you can do with it. with a 500gr lead bullet at 2100fps you already at max pressure and if you want a mono-metal bullet you have to go lighter because there isnt any case room for the longer bullet. if you like using a lighter bullet like as a 450gr bullet then the 458 WM will have some options but if you want 500grs or more then the 458 Lott will have much more options.

-matt

 

[oscar1975]

Maybe stupid questions; 458 Winchester Magnum or 458 Lott driving a 500-grain bullet at 2150 fps; Is it enough to stop charging an elephant or buffalo? or for that function is better to opt for even greater cartridges like the 500 Jeffery and the like.

Thank you very much and happy Sunday,

Oscar.

 

[Velo Dog]

Maybe stupid questions; 458 Winchester Magnum or 458 Lott driving a 500-grain bullet at 2150 fps; Is it enough to stop charging an elephant or buffalo? or for that function is better to opt for even greater cartridges like the 500 Jeffery and the like.

Thank you very much and happy Sunday,

Oscar.

According to history, a .45 caliber bullet of 480 grains, leaving the muzzle at about 2100 fps, is the near perfect balance of charge stopper and tolerable recoil.
This is to include all of the dangerous animals on earth, including the largest ones.

 

[oscar1975]

Well, it seems strange that so little bullet can bring down an elephant or a buffalo; running toward the hunter with bad intentions. Thank you very much for your reply and you have a nice day sir;

Oscar.

 

[Velo Dog]

Well, it seems strange that so little bullet can bring down an elephant or a buffalo; running toward the hunter with bad intentions. Thank you very much for your reply and you have a nice day sir;

Oscar.

Hri again Oscar1975,
c
a
You are very welcome but, my opinion is only based on what I have learned from the words of thoroughly experienced PHs and experienced hunters as well.
My experiences in Africa have been mostly with hunting non-dangerous game.
I have only shot one buffalo and no elephant.
So my opinion is based primarily on history and not very much on my experiences.

There are however some very good books available on this exact subject, by such as:
Doctor Kevin Robertson ("The Perfect Shot") and "Africa's Most Dangerous").
Craig Boddington ("Safari Rifles" and "Safari Rifles II").
John "Pondoro" Taylor ("African Rifles and Cartridges"),
to name but three of the many.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[matt85]

Well, it seems strange that so little bullet can bring down an elephant or a buffalo; running toward the hunter with bad intentions. Thank you very much for your reply and you have a nice day sir;

Oscar.

its not the mass or size of the bullet that stops the animal. its the brain damage cause my the bullet passing threw the animals head. even a 700 NE will fail to stop an animal if you miss the brain.

however, the larger the bullets diameter the easier and more likely it will hit the brain assuming the shot is not perfect. when it comes to elephant you have to deal with the very thick angled surface of the skull. a suitable velocity and sectional density is needed to penetrate this. a 480gr or 500gr .458" bullet traveling at 2050+ fps is suitable to penetrate the skull from multiple angles according to many tests and real world practice.

-matt

 

[oscar1975]

Hri again Oscar1975,
c
a
You are very welcome but, my opinion is only based on what I have learned from the words of thoroughly experienced PHs and experienced hunters as well.
My experiences in Africa have been mostly with hunting non-dangerous game.
I have only shot one buffalo and no elephant.
So my opinion is based primarily on history and not very much on my experiences.

There are however some very good books available on this exact subject, by such as:
Doctor Kevin Robertson ("The Perfect Shot") and "Africa's Most Dangerous").
Craig Boddington ("Safari Rifles" and "Safari Rifles II").
John "Pondoro" Taylor ("African Rifles and Cartridges"),
to name but three of the many.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Thanks Velo Dog is also my pleasure to write and read this forum, I find it fun and friendly and good people. These books appointments; They are very famous, and would love to have them but do not know if they will sell translated into Spanish. I'm studying English but I find it very difficult (I have soon an opposition and one of the subjects is English and it is where I usually stay the process). That's why if he found the books dating Spanish would be a great thing.

Óscar.

 

[PaulT]

The following is my view of the two cartridges formed by 6 years of field use of the Lott cartridge as my primary back-up gun on buffalo hunts in Arnhemland, Northern Australia.
I claim no practical field experience with Elephant.

Ballistics;
Despite what some would like to think, it is simply illogical to expect that a case which is 2.5” in length (Win Mag) can achieve similar ballistics to a case which is 2.8” long, given equal bullet weights and operating pressures.

In saying that, and in answer to the original question, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the .458 Win mag, just as it is.
Just ask Richard Harland !

The problematic load issues experienced with this cartridge (Win mag) have long since become redundant with modern powders.

Personally, I think, that with the current crop of modern projectiles available, specifically 5th and 6th generation projectiles as categorized by Pierre van der Walt in his book; African Dangerous Game Cartridges, .458 Win Mag users would be much better served by the use of the 450gn projectiles as opposed to the 500gn, which the Win mag struggles with a little.

Many vigilant handloaders will tell you it is quite possible to get 2150fps with the 500gn (Win mag), and this is true, but that will be from a 24” barrel only and running very close to maximum field reliable pressures in any climates.

Judicially loaded, and with a 22” barrel, the Lott will do 2250fps with the same bullet at much less pressure.

Many will argue if that 100fps translates into very much noticeable difference in the field and I would argue that that extra 100fps difference puts a .45 caliber, 500gn projectile into a very different performance category when specifically relating to buffalo, given that it has the structural integrity to sustain the impact velocity attained.

In seemingly contradiction to the above statement, there is very little, if any, visual difference between the Win mag loaded a quality 450gn projectile such as a C.E.B or North Fork loaded to 2250fps and a Lott loaded with a similar constructed projectile weighing 500gns at the same velocity !

My personal choice given the two options has always been the Lott, purely because I can get the velocity I know impacts hard on buffalo (2250fps), particularly in stressful situations, with reasonable pressures from a handy 22” (or shorter !) barrel, which to me is vital on a back-up gun.
Apologies for the long winded rant, above is my view only.
Regards,
Paul.

 

[oscar1975]

its not the mass or size of the bullet that stops the animal. its the brain damage cause my the bullet passing threw the animals head. even a 700 NE will fail to stop an animal if you miss the brain.

however, the larger the bullets diameter the easier and more likely it will hit the brain assuming the shot is not perfect. when it comes to elephant you have to deal with the very thick angled surface of the skull. a suitable velocity and sectional density is needed to penetrate this. a 480gr or 500gr .458" bullet traveling at 2050+ fps is suitable to penetrate the skull from multiple angles according to many tests and real world practice.

-matt

So if I have to walk through Africa and I do it with my Ceska 458 Lott, and other trained I can understand that'm sure (of course without the dangerous insects and reptiles hehe) that if I suffer an attack by an animal (mammal) dangerous ; with Ceska 458 Lott and properly placing the bullet (hence clarify what proper training), I will not have problems. Thank your answers; I enforced over the rifle and cartridge

regards,

Oscar.

 

[oscar1975]

Hi @PaulT

Speaking of speed, I have also read that the 460 Weatherby Magnum has on occasion erratic upon impact with the skull of an elephant paths, resulting in a large "stopper" as it should be this cartridge has not proved to be such. At least loaded to maximum. What about truth in that ?; is that a few years ago thought Ceska convert my 458 Lott; in Ceska 460 Weatherby Magnum something everyone dissuaded me.

Óscar.

 

[PaulT]

Oscar, I have no personal experience with Elephant, nor the .460 Weatherby, so I would only be hypothesizing.

With regards to velocity and its effect on projectiles, I have also noticed that, at least at very close range (which is where you will be expecting a charge to be launched from) 50yds and less, that some .458 projectiles when fired at Lott velocities loose their integrity when impacting on buffalo and don't penetrate particularly well, therefore I strongly recommend using the very best projectiles available when operating a muzzle velocity in excess of 2100fps.

If you can get your rifle to feed them reliably C.E.B and Nth Forks are particularly good and come highly recommended, at least for buffalo.

Regards,

Paul.

 

[bassasdaindia]

I must admit : I am not a fan of the 458's and I can't really give a proper answer why .

 

[Velo Dog]

Thanks Velo Dog is also my pleasure to write and read this forum, I find it fun and friendly and good people. These books appointments; They are very famous, and would love to have them but do not know if they will sell translated into Spanish. I'm studying English but I find it very difficult (I have soon an opposition and one of the subjects is English and it is where I usually stay the process). That's why if he found the books dating Spanish would be a great thing.

Óscar.

Hi again Oscar,

I understand.
Perhaps there are Spanish versions of these wonderful book available on the Internet.
Also, your English is better than my Spanish.
Once, I was able to speak Spanish better than today because now I do not practice it like I used to.
For many years, I lived next door to the family of famous hockey player, Scott Gomez, as he was growing up from humble childhood to the good man he is today.
He did not speak Spanish but his parents (my age) did and they were a great help for me learning it.
I have moved away and only see any of them a couple times a year unfortunately.
My wife does not speak Spanish and so, I have no one to speak that beautiful language with.

You are doing well in English, keep up the good work,
Velo Dog.

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Calibers is an individual thing every hunter. I would choose Winchester mod.70 in 458 win. mag.
Witold

 

[oscar1975]

Hi again Oscar,

I understand.
Perhaps there are Spanish versions of these wonderful book available on the Internet.
Also, your English is better than my Spanish.
Once, I was able to speak Spanish better than today because now I do not practice it like I used to.
For many years, I lived next door to the family of famous hockey player, Scott Gomez, as he was growing up from humble childhood to the good man he is today.
He did not speak Spanish but his parents (my age) did and they were a great help for me learning it.
I have moved away and only see any of them a couple times a year unfortunately.
My wife does not speak Spanish and so, I have no one to speak that beautiful language with.

You are doing well in English, keep up the good work,
Velo Dog.

Friend I cheat, I use google translator jejee. But really do not know how to express the world's most important language.

óscar

 

[oscar1975]

Calibers is an individual thing every hunter. I would choose Winchester mod.70 in 458 win. mag.
Witold

Thank God we have many cartridges and weapons to choose from. As we say in my country, "Variety is the spice"

Regards,

Oscar.

 

[AZDAVE]

The middle option is to have a gunsmith throat the 458 and .250 longer and seat the bullet a 1/4 inch farther out (Provide your magazine box can accommodate a little more length.) Did a ruger #1 that way and very easy with modern powders to get 2150-2200 with a 500gr.