458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

[Riflecrank]

SAAMI .458 WM & .458 WM+ velocities mentioned above are from 24" barrel length.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

SAAMI .458 WM & .458 WM+ velocities mentioned above are from 24" barrel length.

As I suspected your calculations only work with shorter less desirable bullets.
I don’t use Hornady DGS or DGX bullets having personally seen them fail in 2013/2014 safaris until I finally realized they were shit. I know they changed the construction of the bullets to bonded without ever admitting the inferior product they put out before nor accepting responsibility for potential harm some may have had to them because of that shit product.
Any benefits you get from the shorter bullets such as the TBBC can also be extrapolated to the Lott load to a better ballistic performance than the 458 win mag. Frankly it’s silly to to argue the Win Mag is superior to the Lott.

Lastly those foolish enough to diminish the Blaser R8’s performance due so at their own ignorance. I own plenty of different manufacturers rifles and find the Blaser’s to be a fine and deadly weapon.

HH

 

[Wyatt Smith]

From my limited research, it seems the Lott will reach 2150 with a wider variety of powders than the win mag will. For an African PH that could be very beneficial.

 

[Riflecrank]

HH: As I suspected your calculations only work with shorter less desirable bullets.

Riflecrank: There were no calculations involved , just reality.
Unless you take offense at the reality analysis by standard deviation calculation on the LabRadar results?
But you are crazy if you think that calculation only works with "shorter less desirable bullets."
And the reality is that the longer the bullet is, the more advantageous for the .458 WM+ to use it in beating a SAAMI .458 Lott.
The only problem with the 500-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid is the screwy drive-band lay-out.

HH: I don’t use Hornady DGS or DGX bullets having personally seen them fail in 2013/2014 safaris until I finally realized they were shit. I know they changed the construction of the bullets to bonded without ever admitting the inferior product they put out before nor accepting responsibility for potential harm some may have had to them because of that shit product.

Riflecrank: Now you are having "flight of ideas" off to blaming a different bullet maker just because I do not like one of the hundreds of bullets made by CEB. Sounds like "transference" in psychoanalytic lingo. Get help.
The CEB Safari Solid is the best design possible except when they get the drive-band layout screwed up for my application. Maybe it suits another man's needs, not mine.

HH: Any benefits you get from the shorter bullets such as the TBBC can also be extrapolated to the Lott load to a better ballistic performance than the 458 win mag. Frankly it’s silly to to argue the Win Mag is superior to the Lott.

Riflecrank: I was using the TBSS not the TBBC in that last bit of "REALITY." Frankly, you have no understanding of what the SAAMI .458 WM throat is capable of. THROAT THROAT THROAT.
Physics does not lie.

HH: Lastly those foolish enough to diminish the Blaser R8’s performance due so at their own ignorance. I own plenty of different manufacturers rifles and find the Blaser’s to be a fine and deadly weapon.

Riflecrank: I shall "due so at their own ignorance." Blasers do impress as being a "fine and deadly weapon" in a suicide kind of way.

 

[Riflecrank]

From my limited research, it seems the Lott will reach 2150 with a wider variety of powders than the win mag will. For an African PH that could be very beneficial.

Finally, maybe an advantage of the .458 Lott over the .458 WinMag
for those with limited access to handloading resources such as powder selection.
Maybe.

But there are at least 4 dozen powders that I find useful in the .458 WM,
not counting the pistol and shotgun powders used for squib and birdshot loads.
About the same with the .458 Lott.

I will admit the .458 Lott is better with birdshot loads and shorter length bullets
for rat killin'.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I can tell you this much @Riflecrank if I ever own a Lott I will ream if with a win mag reamer to get the best of both.

 

[Riflecrank]

Wyatt Smith,
You are a wise man.
Then you will be able to use this data safely
(mine from a 24"-factory-barreled SAAMI .458 WinMag Ruger No. 1 at 80*F)
and I am sure you won't work up to it until after you run that SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into your SAAMI .458 Lott:

Primer used in that W-W Super brass was a GM215M or F215, same-same.
Hornady, Winchester, Remington and Federal cases all have about same gross H2O capacity for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Norma .458 WM has about 4.5 grains greater gross H2O capacity,
so equivalent loads with that brass may use the same powder charges and ~ 0.100" shorter COL.

So many bullets do well in the .458 WM+
and so many powders too.
So many excellent combinations, too many to shake a stick at.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Wyatt Smith,
You are a wise man.
Then you will be able to use this data safely
(mine from a 24"-factory-barreled SAAMI .458 WinMag Ruger No. 1 at 80*F)
and I am sure you won't work up to it until after you run that SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into your SAAMI .458 Lott:

View attachment 647966

Primer used in that W-W Super brass was a GM215M or F215, same-same.
Hornady, Winchester, Remington and Federal cases all have about same gross H2O capacity for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Norma .458 WM has about 4.5 grains greater gross H2O capacity,
so equivalent loads with that brass may use the same powder charges and ~ 0.100" shorter COL.

View attachment 647967

So many bullets do well in the .458 WM+
and so many powders too.
So many excellent combinations, too many to shake a stick at.

You continue to quote statistics on the win mag +(this is a wildcat variant of the 458 win mag and not commercially loaded for)

If you ever lose your ammo while traveling your in serious trouble

458 Lott is far superior to the 458 win mag…period.

HH

 

[Riflecrank]

The .458 WM+ is a handloading category for the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambered rifle.
It is any handload that exceeds 3.340" COL or might approach the higher MAP of the SAAMI .458 Lott: 62,500 psi instead of the usual 60,000 psi MAP of the SAAMI .458 WinMag.

The .458 WM+ is not a "wildcat variant." It uses the SAAMI chamber of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
If one did a .458 WinMag with a short throat like on the SAAMI .458 Lott you should mark it as a wildcat, ".458 Winchester Magnum Special."
Such a ".458 WM-S" would make factory loads shoot ~100 fps faster in MV and raise pressures considerably.

I recommend the Hornady 500-gr DGX-Bonded and DGS .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition as best for a velocity control on chronographing.
Good field performance at 2140 fps MV also.
It is the most consistent in delivering "as advertised" MV of any factory load I have tested:
2140 fps MV from a 24" barrel +/- a few fps.

I have a 24" barreled ".458 WinMag Special" that has a throat that is intermediate in length between the SAAMI .458 Lott and the SAAMI .458 WinMag.
The 2140 fps "control" ammo gave that MV in both a Winchester (FN/SC) M70 Super Grade 24" barrel and a factory Ruger No. 1 barrel of 24" length: 2140 fps +/- a few fps.
Same day testing of same ammo in my .458 WM-S gave 2196 fps MV from same length barrel.

Shorter throat, higher pressure, higher velocity.
See how this works ?

 

[Riflecrank]

If you ever lose your .458 WM+ ammo while traveling with your SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum rifle,
you are in fine shape.

Anytime I have been in Alaska or Africa the .458 WinMag ammo was more plentiful than the .458 Lott.
The .458 WinMag clients usually killed with one shot and left unused ammo behind.
Maybe the Lottites used more ammo per kill and left less ammo behind ?

Using .458WinMag ammo in a .458 Lott is not as good as using .458 WinMag ammo in a .458 WinMag.

 

[TOBY458]

I think the truth of the matter is, if you can push a 500 gr bullet at 2150 fps or a 450 gr at 2250 fps from either a Win Mag or a Lott, you have all the gun you’ll ever need. With those velocities, all the other variables are pretty much moot. I seriously doubt an elephant or buffalo will know the difference in adding or subtracting 100 fps either way.

 

[Rule 303]

I do not own either of the calibres. However, and I may have missed this, the Lott will allow longer bullets to be used without sacrificing the percentage amount of powder space that would be required in the 458Win.

I believe most of the negative feed back on the 458Win was from its early days when then current powders were not as insensitive to environmental heat as they are today, in most cases. + with the newer powders it is easier to get the 458Win up to the claimed 2150fps that it struggled to do in its early days.

 

[BJH65]

I recommend the Hornady 500-gr DGX-Bonded and DGS .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition as best for a velocity control on chronographing.
Good field performance at 2140 fps MV also.
It is the most consistent in delivering "as advertised" MV of any factory load I have tested:
2140 fps MV from a 24" barrel +/- a few fps.

Sir Riflecrank,

You referenced the above factory 458 Win Mag loading from Hornady as a control sample. Hornady’s same loading with the 458 Lott for both bullets is 2300 fps, a 160 fps advantage for the 458 Lott. Most (not all) 458 Lott factory loaded ammunition have a 150 fps advantage over factory loaded 458 Win Mag. Strangely, the new Swift Bullet Company factory loadings offers only a 64 fps advantage with the Lott but that seems to be the exception and not the rule.

You present a compelling case, 458 Win Mag handloads in certain rifles may equal and in at least in some of your rifles, exceed factory loaded 458 Lott ammunition but then one must compare max loaded 458 Lott handloads to be fair.

As a recent owner of a 458 Lott, purchased from fellow member !ovethunt, I have only recently joined the ranks of the “Lottites.” I admit some small bias, since Jack Lott himself initially put this rifle together for a past editor of Peterson’s hunting, although it’s been further customized since then.

In truth, I’d happily use either 458 Win Mag or 458 Lott, but since I have the Lott, I’ll stick to factory 458 Lott ammo. I look forward to using it on DG in 2026 with both 500 grain Swift A Frame and 500 grain TSX.

Sir, will you at least acknowledge that in factory loadings, the 458 Lott has the advantage?

 

[Riflecrank]

Sir, will you at least acknowledge that in factory loadings, the 458 Lott has the advantage?

Of course. Yes.
With both a higher pressure and a greater case capacity (longer COL) the SAAMI .458 Lott beats the
SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum,
despite the short throat of the SAAMI .458 Lott.
That is like asking if the sun rises in the east. Yes to that too.

And can the SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag be handloaded to .458 WM+ levels
(same COL and higher pressures as the SAAMI .458 Lott)
and beat the SAAMI .458 Lott by either higher velocity or lower pressure or both ?
Yes to that too.

Starting on page six (by my settings) of the other recent thread here, there are some rundowns on various factory loads I tested in my rifles:

N

Thread 'The “458 Winchester Magnum, all the cartridge you’ll ever need” thread'

Oct 26, 2024

Seeing as both the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs cartridges both have dedicated threads, I thought I’d give Africas #1 underdog the same love.

We all know the history of the 458 WinMag and the teething issues it experienced in the early years. We also know those issues have been resolved with modern powders and bullets.

Modern factory ammo will produce 2,100-2,140 fps for 500 grain bullets out of a 24” barrel and reloading will easily let you surpass 2,150 fps.

Considering the vaunted 450NE produced these velocities (sometimes less in reality) with a 480gr bullet which proved more than...

• Northern Shooter
• Replies: 193
• Forum: .375 & up

• 
• 

Summarized in this table:

Note that only a few loads underperformed the advertised MV, most exceeded it.
The W-W Vintage Ammo listed above was all done in a 25"-barreled rifle.
A previous testing of the 510-gr RNSN factory load had shown 2075 fps MV in a 23-7/8"-barreled rifle, then 2012 fps MV in a different rifle, similar ambient temperatures.
Different lots of ammo maybe, didn't record lots, of that long discontinued ammo.
The slower lot was from 1996, I did verify that, and I fired it in 2022.
We all know Winchester factory ammo has had some problems in the past, decades ago.

I found the Federal factory stuff to be outstanding.
Routinely exceeding their claimed MV for 24" barrel, some times by over 100 fps.
Look at the top 4 rows of Federal ammo in the table above.

I wish someone would make a table of Factory .458 Lott loads.

I need to make a table of my handloads for the .458 WM+ to compare it to.

Here is an outstanding factory load:

Winchester actually knew how to do it in 1955 before springing it on the world in 1956,
and later messing up the mass production like the Damnedocrats have been messing up the USA.

With the bullets and powders of today ...

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

BJH65, if you ignore his obfuscation, he said yes to your question
Gumpy

 

[WAB]

This thread has become rather ridiculous.

 

[BJH65]

This thread has become rather ridiculous.

It’s been interesting to me. Riflecrank is as passionate about the 458 win mag as Jack O’Connor was about the 270!

 

[WAB]

It’s been interesting to me. Riflecrank is as passionate about the 458 win mag as Jack O’Connor was about the 270!

I won’t disagree with you on the passion! Bottom line, when you hit a buffalo in the right spot with a well constructed 500 gr bullet at 2,300 fps the argument is over. I get there with a Lott and factory ammo. If someone else wants to get there with hyped up ammo in a .458 WM with an extended throat, more power to them. To claim it is somehow better would be pretty difficult to prove to the Buffalo.

 

[BJH65]

I won’t disagree with you on the passion! Bottom line, when you hit a buffalo in the right spot with a well constructed 500 gr bullet at 2,300 fps the argument is over. I get there with a Lott and factory ammo. If someone else wants to get there with hyped up ammo in a .458 WM with an extended throat, more power to them. To claim it is somehow better would be pretty difficult to prove to the Buffalo.

Yes sir, I aim to find out with my 458 Lott with factory Barnes 500 grain TSX 2300 fps on buffalo and 500 grain Swift A frame for lion in 2026.

 

[odonata]

As a new owner of a 458 Win Mag, I find these comparisons interesting & informative about both the cartridges and why people choose them. In my particular case, the availability of affordable left-handed rifles that I could convert to a larger chambering was a deciding factor. I had a feeling I would really enjoy shooting a more powerful rifle (I do!) but I didn't want to commit too many resources on my very first purchase since I wasn't very experienced. I learned a lot & had fun rebarreling & reinforcing a LH Ruger M77 MkII that I've been shooting 404gr Shock Hammers out of. It's simple but it's been a good training rifle.

I didn't have preconceived prejudices against any of the common African chamberings & early on, the 458 Win Mag was not high on the list. I came really close to buying a 404 Jeffery. I just wanted to take a step up from my 375 H&H to test the waters. But for a variety of reasons (LH bolt availability being primary), the 458 Win Mag started drifting up the list. Whenever comparisons between the 458 Win Mag & the 458 Lott would appear while I was researching options, they usually had some common themes:

Early 458 Win Mag advertising promised a lot but didn't deliver the required speed & reliability. Even though powder problems were improved decades ago, it can be hard to rebuild a damaged reputation.

The 458 Lott fixed the shortcomings of 458 Win Mag by using a longer magnum action, a longer case & more powder along with increased recoil. If you use factory ammunition, these factors along with the higher pressure that the SAAMI specs give means that commercial ammo for the 458 Lott will always be more powerful than similar 458 Win Mag ammo. If you shoot factory ammo & you determine you need that extra power, then the Lott might be the better choice for you.

Most of the ardent 458 Win Mag supporters I've met are reloaders. They get pretty excited about the wide power range & versatility they can achieve when they color outside the SAAMI lines. Things like pressure equal to the 458 Lott, a flexible COL, lighter bullets, etc. are some of the options discussed. They seem to have a lot of fun experimenting with a wide variety of loads. For them, the sometimes marginal increase that a 458 Lott rifle might provide isn't sufficient enough to make the magnum action & increased recoil a worthwhile trade-off. It's a judgement call where they determine that the 458 Win Mag provides the better solution. Some people might consider that an unbalanced comparison or dubious behavior but I've found the potential to be interesting.

For me personally, the 458 Win Mag is sufficient for anything I plan to point a rifle at. But when it comes to choosing a rifle that may save your life in a dangerous situation, I tend to give others a lot of respect for whatever they've decided on if its capable of producing sufficient power to get the job done. Everyone needs to feel like they're properly prepared so if you're happy with your selection, I hope you have a safe hunt & that you post some pictures.