458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

[TiberiusCassius]

Good morning,

Quickload is well known to have problems with straight walled cartridges like 458 Win/ Lott or Pistole cartridges. It calculates way too much pressure.
Even the designer of Quickload himself states somewhere in the manual that this is a Problem and he also gives instructions how to adjust calculations.
Of course this isnt an excuse to be reckless concerning loading...

Cheers,
TC

 

[fourfive8]

78697 psi! Input error or the QL has a major problem. The whole idea of the Lott vs the WM is less pressure per velocity. You can get decent velocities out the WM but the "cost" is always going to be higher pressure. For reliable function, especially in a DG rifle, high pressure is the enemy. I wouldn't and don't trust any predictive model like QL. Much better to use actual published pressure data along with tangible indicators like brass measurements and chrony readings.

 

[TOBY458]

@Riflecrank this thread I started few years ago might be of interest to you.

 

[Riflecrank]

Ha !
Yes indeed.
QuickLOAD makes no allowance for throat, that is why it is way off,
besides any straight-case issues it might have.

Real world results are also muddied by the fact that many .458 Lotts have varying throat lengths.
The .458 WinMag meeting SAAMI standards has been the same since 1956 unless boogered by maker.

CIP homologation first did it with same throat as SAAMI (and CIP) .458 WinMag tacked onto the 2.8" chamber.
Later SAAMI homologation was for a much shorter throat which CIP then changed theirs to match.

The original wildcat of Jack Lott was a SAAMI .458 WM that was re-chambered with a .450 Watts chamber reamer with no throat so that the residual SAAMI .458 WM throat blended into it.
The SAAMI .458 WM reamer's cutting length is longer than the SAAMI .458 Lott reamer's cutting length.
Such a .458 Lott "like Jack built" should be called a ".458 Lott Special."
It can be loaded to the same maximum COL as the SAAMI .458 WinMag.
It can match the SAAMI .458 WinMag for speed at pressure.
It beats the SAAMI .458 Lott,
just like the SAAMI .458 WinMag does if both are allowed the same COL and pressure.

Another factor muddying the waters is that with factory ammo the .458 WinMag is limited to 60,000 psi by SAAMI (MAP) and 3.340" COL.
The SAAMI MAP for the .458 Lott is 62,500 psi, with COL limit of 3.600".

With those limits in SAAMI chambered rifles, with SAAMI restricted ammo,
the .458 Lott has an advantage of only 50 fps in MV over the .458 WinMag.
And, yes, the .458 Lott has to burn more powder and recoil more vigorously to do that.
It takes a longer bolt throw and will be slower to fire four shots for time,
in a speed shooting (with accuracy) contest.

Win Win Win for the .458 WinMag versus the .458 Loser.

 

[CBH Australia]

@Riflecrank that is quite interesting. I owned a .458wm briefly and read about the shortfall s etc and then wanted a .375anyway but it sounds like you have some in depth knowledge on this

 

[Jefferry404]

I use AA2230 in my Dakota Lott, 2200fps from 24" barrel.
Now, if i was to use h335, this is how i go about using Quickload
First, I fit known data (in this case Hodgdon data) in QL by adjusting Burn rate factor Ba and per
QL developer, weighing factor. This allows one to match the velocity and the pressure to published data.
Below is my QL form for 458 winmag:

I should note the nice thing about the WinMag (other than a great cartridge) is Saami has both cup and psi data, so able to get a good match.
The above is per Hodgdon reload data website.

Then, using that same fitted data above for the 458Lott:

and adjusted the charge to get 2200fps.

Then I shoot 3 rounds and measure with LabRadar, then adjust Ba only to fit the measured velocity
and what the pressure is, it is.
As an aside, Barnes has a load for 500gn solid of 78.0gr h335 for 2245fps at 95% load density.
Since Nosler, Swift and Barnes have smaller max. charge, I would start out 2-5gn lower than above and calibrate.

We know that QL pressure vs case capacity is not a perfect fit, depending on the case capacity differnece. The WM was 95 gn H20 and the Lott, 110. close enough, who knows....
Steve

 

[Hunting Hitman]

Ha !
Yes indeed.
QuickLOAD makes no allowance for throat, that is why it is way off,
besides any straight-case issues it might have.

Real world results are also muddied by the fact that many .458 Lotts have varying throat lengths.
The .458 WinMag meeting SAAMI standards has been the same since 1956 unless boogered by maker.

CIP homologation first did it with same throat as SAAMI (and CIP) .458 WinMag tacked onto the 2.8" chamber.
Later SAAMI homologation was for a much shorter throat which CIP then changed theirs to match.

The original wildcat of Jack Lott was a SAAMI .458 WM that was re-chambered with a .450 Watts chamber reamer with no throat so that the residual SAAMI .458 WM throat blended into it.
The SAAMI .458 WM reamer's cutting length is longer than the SAAMI .458 Lott reamer's cutting length.
Such a .458 Lott "like Jack built" should be called a ".458 Lott Special."
It can be loaded to the same maximum COL as the SAAMI .458 WinMag.
It can match the SAAMI .458 WinMag for speed at pressure.
It beats the SAAMI .458 Lott,
just like the SAAMI .458 WinMag does if both are allowed the same COL and pressure.

Another factor muddying the waters is that with factory ammo the .458 WinMag is limited to 60,000 psi by SAAMI (MAP) and 3.340" COL.
The SAAMI MAP for the .458 Lott is 62,500 psi, with COL limit of 3.600".

With those limits in SAAMI chambered rifles, with SAAMI restricted ammo,
the .458 Lott has an advantage of only 50 fps in MV over the .458 WinMag.
And, yes, the .458 Lott has to burn more powder and recoil more vigorously to do that.
It takes a longer bolt throw and will be slower to fire four shots for time,
in a speed shooting (with accuracy) contest.

Win Win Win for the .458 WinMag versus the .458 Loser.

Can you please provide the 458 win mag load that delivers a 500 grain Cutting Edge flat point solid at 2300 fps?

That would match my Lott data and I could compare.

Thanks

HH

 

[WAB]

Very interesting thread. I don’t load for the Lott, but I have chrono’d federal’s 500 gr TBBC load in my rifle. I’m getting right at 2,300 fps with a 22” barrel. My assumption is that this is about. 150 fps improvement over factory WM loads, but in all honesty I have never tried them.

 

[Beck]

150 fps on a 500 grain bullet makes a big difference in muzzle energy

 

[BJH65]

I’m a little perplexed about some of the hating regarding the 458 Lott? Since I don’t reload, my recently acquired 458 Lott has a clear advantage in muzzle velocity over the 458 Win Mag with same factory loaded cartridge bullet weights? Plus you can shoot 458 Win Mag out of the 458 Lott. In my mind that makes a 458 Lott chambered rifle more versatile. If one desires to have more power, use the 458 Lott ammunition. If one desires less, load up with the 458 Win Mag.

 

[Dan458]

I’m a little perplexed about some of the hating regarding the 458 Lott? Since I don’t reload, my recently acquired 458 Lott has a clear advantage in muzzle velocity over the 458 Win Mag with same factory loaded cartridge bullet weights? Plus you can shoot 458 Win Mag out of the 458 Lott. In my mind that makes a 458 Lott chambered rifle more versatile. If one desires to have more power, use the 458 Lott ammunition. If one desires less, load up with the 458 Win Mag.

Looks like the Win Mag brigade got tired of being looked down on and thought they would launch a bit of propaganda of their own. Don’t mind them. They won’t accept the error of their ways until they end up like old Jack

 

[TOBY458]

I’m a little perplexed about some of the hating regarding the 458 Lott? Since I don’t reload, my recently acquired 458 Lott has a clear advantage in muzzle velocity over the 458 Win Mag with same factory loaded cartridge bullet weights? Plus you can shoot 458 Win Mag out of the 458 Lott. In my mind that makes a 458 Lott chambered rifle more versatile. If one desires to have more power, use the 458 Lott ammunition. If one desires less, load up with the 458 Win Mag.

No hate for the Lott from me. I have both calibers. Just thought I’d shead some light on the real world ballistics of both. The Win Mag will do all that’s needed. The Lott will best it with factory loads. In my mind the Win Mag is probably best suited for handloaders. Where as the Lott will work just fine with factory loads. In the end, they’re both 458s. And that is good news for us all!

 

[WAB]

I’m a little perplexed about some of the hating regarding the 458 Lott? Since I don’t reload, my recently acquired 458 Lott has a clear advantage in muzzle velocity over the 458 Win Mag with same factory loaded cartridge bullet weights? Plus you can shoot 458 Win Mag out of the 458 Lott. In my mind that makes a 458 Lott chambered rifle more versatile. If one desires to have more power, use the 458 Lott ammunition. If one desires less, load up with the 458 Win Mag.[/

Doesn’t really matter what folks who may shoot one or two buff in their lifetime think. Look at what the PH’s are carrying.

 

[WAB]

I’m a little perplexed about some of the hating regarding the 458 Lott? Since I don’t reload, my recently acquired 458 Lott has a clear advantage in muzzle velocity over the 458 Win Mag with same factory loaded cartridge bullet weights? Plus you can shoot 458 Win Mag out of the 458 Lott. In my mind that makes a 458 Lott chambered rifle more versatile. If one desires to have more power, use the 458 Lott ammunition. If one desires less, load up with the 458 Win Mag.

Doesn’t really matter what folks who have shot one or two buff think. Look at what the PH’s are carrying.

 

[BnC 04]

Doesn’t really matter what folks who have shot one or two buff think. Look at what the PH’s are carrying.

100%

 

[Riflecrank]

Can you please provide the 458 win mag load that delivers a 500 grain Cutting Edge flat point solid at 2300 fps?

That would match my Lott data and I could compare.

Thanks

HH

Never fired a CEB 500-gr/.458 Safari Solid.
The 450-gr Safari Solid is more than sufficient for any job in any .458-caliber rifle.

The TBSS 500-grainer from Federal components handloading data, loaded to their recommended 3.275" COL for that bullet in the SAAMI .458 WinMag with 77.1 grains of Alliant Power Pro VARMINT,
in a 24" barrel: 2213 fps MV
That is limited to 60,000 psi, and shorter than 3.340" COL.

Same bullet fired from a 24"-long Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag factory barrel at 80*F
500-gr TBSS at 3.550" COL, 83.0 grains AA-2460, W-W Super brass, F215 primer
measured by LabRadar
5 shots, average MV =2407.8 fps (2419, 2408, 2406, 2401, 2405)

Beats the .458 Lott Federal factory load with the TBSS.
Beats the load data they supply for handloading the .458 Lott with that bullet too.
They show 90.0 grains of Alliant Power Pro 2000-MR at 3.580" COL giving 24" barrel MV = 2332 fps
must have maxed out at 62,500 psi in the .458 Lott.

The .458 WinMag has free-bore to allow loading beyond 3.58",
but practically it is limited to 3.550" to 3.560" COL when crimped in the bottom groove/cannelure on the 500-gr TBSS.

The .458 WinMag has extra throat for pressure let-off or effective net case capacity greater than that of the .458 Lott with short SAAMI throat.

If the default gross case capacity of QuickLoad is 95.0 gr H2O for the .458 WinMag with 2.5" case length,
then the .458 Lott with 2.8" case length should have (41.66grH2O/Inch) X (0.3 Inch) = 12.498 grains H2O greater case gross capacity: 95.0 + 12.5 = 107.5 gr H2O.

If the SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag is loaded to the same COL as the SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott
using the same bullet in both,
then the .458 WinMag has more throat left for bullet free travel than the .458 Lott.
That means less pressure or greater "effective" case capacity in the .458 WinMag than in the .458 Lott.

The greatest PH/GameWarden/Elephant Cullers in history used the .458 Winchester Magnum more than any other rifle.

The PH crop of today has been brain washed by Lottite propaganda.
Most are unsophisticated in guns and ammo.
A few do know their arse from their elbow in that regard.
Even if those knowledgeable folk are not allowed to handload a .458 WinMag in their situations, for legal or practical reasons, there is excellent factory loaded stuff today.
It is loaded with the same bullets as the .458 Lott factory ammo, for the most part, and more likely a greater variety of bullets,
at lower chamber pressure
in the faster working shorter bolt throw.
Fractions of a second do matter sometimes.

 

[Riflecrank]

I might add, higher ratio of MV attained versus Recoil Suffered, MV:RS.
The .458 WinMag scores higher than the .458 Lott.
Higher MV:RS equals speedier accuracy for a second chance shot to save your bacon.
Just one more way of many that the .458 WinMag scores higher than the .458 Lott.
The .458 WinMag is so much more practical in so many ways !!!

 

[Hunting Hitman]

I might add, higher ratio of MV attained versus Recoil Suffered, MV:RS.
The .458 WinMag scores higher than the .458 Lott.
Higher MV:RS equals speedier accuracy for a second chance shot to save your bacon.
Just one more way of many that the .458 WinMag scores higher than the .458 Lott.
The .458 WinMag is so much more practical in so many ways !!!

Sorry but this just isn’t telling the whole story. When you load a Cutting Edge or North Fork solid the bullets are longer than other brands and understandably so. This is why I asked for the specs on the 458 win with those bullets. And as for the faster follow up shot…my Selous R8 fires faster than any standard bolt action ever made.

HH

 

[Sarg]

Sorry but this just isn’t telling the whole story. When you load a Cutting Edge or North Fork solid the bullets are longer than other brands and understandably so. This is why I asked for the specs on the 458 win with those bullets. And as for the faster follow up shot…my Selous R8 fires faster than any standard bolt action ever made.

HH

I posted about this else where but it might have been missed & this looked like a good spot to put it again.

Blaser barrel at Holts starting cheap.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/blaser-r8-458-lott-barrel-at-holts.87647/

 

[Riflecrank]

Sorry but this just isn’t telling the whole story. When you load a Cutting Edge or North Fork solid the bullets are longer than other brands and understandably so. This is why I asked for the specs on the 458 win with those bullets. And as for the faster follow up shot…my Selous R8 fires faster than any standard bolt action ever made.

Blaser !
I believe grand veneur would call that a "device."

Why I do not like the CEB 500-gr Safari Solid is because of the funny driving band layout, that makes it hard to get the maximum out of the SAAMI .458 WM and .458 WM+.
Those bands are perfect for loading in the "throat-and-magazine-length-challenged" SAAMI .458 Lott,
at one and only one COL with 2.8" case in a 3.6" magazine length:

When you crimp right below the first driving band with 2.8" brass the COL is 3.550".
You can seat a little less deep and crimp so COL is 3.600" when you have a compressed charge in the .458 Lott. That is the only option: COL of 3.550" to 3.600" in the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Likewise, to stay within SAAMI governance, COL with the CEB bullet is only allowed to be 3.250"to 3.260", but if you want to slip down one more band you can make the COL 3.360" to 3.380" in the .458 WM+ (exceeds SAAMI COL).

The Barnes Banded Solids with FN meplat are about as good as the CEB in terminal ballistic testing done by Michael458 (Doc M) at MIB in SC, USA.
Their band structure is much more flexible for the .458 WM & .458 WM+, but allows a tight fit in the .458 Lott, at one and only one COL.

Some .458 WM+ loads with both the 500-gr and 450-gr BBS (1 & 2)
as well as the 500-gr and 450-gr TSX bullets (3 & 4):

I have several SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag rifles that handle these loads through their long-action magazines (M70 Win, CZ 550 Mag), and these loads can be single loaded in any Ruger No. 1 or "Short Magnum" .458 WinMag with SAAMI chamber, perfectly safely.
They may be too hot for a SAAMI .458 Lott, but not a ".458 Lott Special" like the wildcat Jack Lott built, which is the equal to a .458 WM+.

Best 500-grainer on the chrono in a .458 WM+ (or SAAMI .458 WinMag) has to be the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid due to short overall length and excellent band layout for crimping from

3.275" COL to 3.550" COL:
+2200 fps at 60,000 psi and 3.275" COL: SAAMI .458 WM
to
+2400 fps at Lott-like pressure and 3.550" COL: .458 WM+