458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

[Riflecrank]

From WAB:

"I won’t disagree with you on the passion! Bottom line, when you hit a buffalo in the right spot with a well constructed 500 gr bullet at 2,300 fps the argument is over. I get there with a Lott and factory ammo. If someone else wants to get there with hyped up ammo in a .458 WM with an extended throat, more power to them. To claim it is somehow better would be pretty difficult to prove to the Buffalo."

To WAB:

You do understand that the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat is what it is, not an "extended throat" to allow the performance noted, don't you ?
That is what allows the SAAMI .458 WinMag with "hyped up ammo" (.458 WM+ handloads) to use the maximum SAAMI .458 Lott loads as starting loads and work up from there.

A compressed charge in the SAAMI .458 Lott at 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi is going to have the same degree of compression in the .458 WM+ handload with same bullet at same COL.
Pressure will be less in the .458 WM+ due to the throat. You will have to add a little more powder to the .458 WM+ to get the pressure back up to 62,500 psi.
Velocity achievable by the .458 WM+ versus the SAAMI .458 Lott is an excellent subject for further discussion.

Hype. That is how the .458 Lott made its reputation.
Jack Lott gut-shot a cape buffalo with a 510-gr RNSP from his .458 WinMag in 1959, Mozambique.
His next shot was the 500-gr FMJ RN "solid" that deformed and failed due to the high velocity of that factory ammo, and the poor construction of the factory bullet of the day.
Any higher MV would have made it worse.
Jack got tossed and some how emerged from the bushes with his worst injury being a corneal abrasion that got a complication and it took a few weeks for him to be able to see well enough to return to hunting in Mozambique with PH Wally Johnson (Walter Johnson, Sr.)
BTW, after Wally Johnson distracted the cape buffalo that Jack angered, by emptying his .375 H&H into that cape buffalo, he picked up Jack's .458 WinMag off the ground and killed the buffalo.

Fast forward from 1959 to 1971 during which time Jack continued to safari with a .458 WinMag, as did his buddy/editor Tom Siatos. Then they got the wildcatting wild hair. Tom did the 460 G&A, and inspired Jack to do the .458 Lott in 1971.

Eventually the story of "the .458 Winchester Magnum failure" morphed into no fault of Jack's gut-shooting. And the legendary .458 Lott hype began.
Never mind that Jack used a .450 Watts Magnum reamer with no throat to run into the chamber of a SAAMI .458 WinMag, preserving the terminal leade of the .458 WinMag to create the .458 Lott Wildcat by trimming the brass to 2.800". When you fire-form .375 H&H brass into .458 Lott diameter,
it shortens so that you have to trim it down to uniform and square the case mouths.
The first .458 Lott wildcat was a ".458 Lott Special" that could perform just like a SAAMI .458 WinMag firing .458 WM+ handloads, unlike the SAAMI .458 Lott with Art Alphin's fingerprints all over it.

 

[Riflecrank]

odonata,
Aren't you the diplomat !

 

[Hunter-Habib]

A .458 Lott is a better choice than a .458 Winchester Magnum for body shots on lions when employing 500Gr bullets (all other factors being equal). I know this from personal experience.

 

[Riflecrank]

A .458 Lott is a better choice than a .458 Winchester Magnum for body shots on lions when employing 500Gr bullets (all other factors being equal). I know this from personal experience.

Anecdotes please do tell !

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Anecdotes please do tell !

1978, Ugalla Game Reserve, Tanzania (right when TAWICO or Tanzania Wildlife Corporation had reopened hunting in three blocks of Tanzania after the 1973 ban).
I shared a camp with an American gent by the name of Dave Bourban (who would eventually go on to become one of my best friends all the way until his tragic death in 2020 due to the Chinese Virus). Dave owned a Belgium made boxlock ejector double rifle in .458 Winchester Magnum. I had used this rifle on this particular Safari to down a Cape buffalo bull with no problems.

Dave had a lion on the menu. He took his .458 Winchester Magnum loaded with 500Gr soft nosed Hornady hand loads (at 2130 FPS). Lion was stalked in foot and shot twice (left barrel, right barrel) through the heart (frontal chest shot). He made off and expired roughly 150 yards later.

Years later in Zambia, I was present when a white hunter (armed with a .450 Rigby Rimless Magnum John rigby & Co. Mauser) had to stop a lion charge (lion was already wounded by a client). He put a 500Gr Woodleigh soft nose hand load (at 2350 FPS) through the lion's heart (frontal chest shot) at roughly 20 yards. Lion made a turn and simply gave out within seconds.

It was then that I slowly started coming to the conclusion that the higher velocity of the larger .450 Rigby Rimless Magnum cartridge case definitely did make a difference on the great cats (due to their unique highly developed central nervous system).

For this reason, I can safely state that the .458 Lott will be a better choice for body shots on lion than the .458 Winchester Magnum. Assuming of course, that all other factors being equal (which admittedly is seldom the case in the field).

Speaking for myself, I have been personally hunting most of my lions over the years with .375 Holland & Holland Magnums. But also one with a .458 Winchester Magnum.

The higher velocity of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum's 300Gr bullets at 2530 FPS, definitely had more visible terminal effects on lions (when taking heart-lung shots) than the 500Gr bullets of the .458 Winchester Magnum at 2040 FPS.

For this same reason, I strongly believe that calibers like the .500/416 Nitro Express or .500 Jeffrey are superior for lion hunting (when taking body shots) than the .470 Nitro Express or .500 Nitro Express.

I have no grudge against the .458 Winchester Magnum, @Riflecrank . I used it extensively in the 1970s (when big bore ammunition for no other calibers were available, barring the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum). But I must be fair and detail my observations as I see them.

 

[Rule 303]

There is a lot of talk about the different throat length. If I had a Lott I would simply do what I do with most of my rifle, have it long throated. Then the Lott would could be loaded to higher velocities. I would think the gains would not be worth it for some but certainly for others.

 

[odonata]

odonata,
Aren't you the diplomat !

I always enjoy a good debate.

Reading Hunter-Habib's comments above reminded me of the detailed evaluation of the 458 Win Mag written by Major Khan who hunted in India when it & the 375 H&H were the only options that were widely available. It was interesting to see his progression from someone who had some early bad experiences (with anecdotes) & formed some unflattering opinions to someone who learned to appreciate what it could do now (with caveats).

Thread 'The .458 Winchester Magnum & I : A Fair Assessment'

Jul 21, 2020

There is no question about it . Over the last 61 years of my life as a hunter ( 10 of which , were spent as a professional shikaree ... Working under the employment of Allwyn Cooper Limited in Nagpur , India from 1961 - 1970 ) , I have not had many good things to say about the .458 Winchester magnum. Hell , I have been downright contemptful towards this caliber . A good deal of trouble , the .458 Winchester magnum has caused me ... During my career as a professional shikaree . How ever , all of this was more than 5 decades ago . My learned ( and experienced ) fellow forum members...

• Major Khan
• Replies: 34
• Forum: Articles

• 

The higher velocity of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum's 300Gr bullets at 2530 FPS, definitely had more visible terminal effects on lions (when taking heart-lung shots) than the 500Gr bullets of the .458 Winchester Magnum at 2040 FPS.

Since some of the 458 Win Mag reloaders are shooting 300gr bullets like the Barnes TSX, I wonder what kind of results they would get with a high-velocity bullet as well. If increased speed is an important factor, I know Riflecrank developed a 3.340" load that was shooting at 2980 fps. The 2530 fps speed listed above is what they're regularly shooting 404gr Shock Hammers at.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

HH

 

[Mountaineer]

@Riflecrank what powder and barrel length are you using to achieve 2980 fps?

 

[WAB]

From WAB:

"I won’t disagree with you on the passion! Bottom line, when you hit a buffalo in the right spot with a well constructed 500 gr bullet at 2,300 fps the argument is over. I get there with a Lott and factory ammo. If someone else wants to get there with hyped up ammo in a .458 WM with an extended throat, more power to them. To claim it is somehow better would be pretty difficult to prove to the Buffalo."

To WAB:

You do understand that the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat is what it is, not an "extended throat" to allow the performance noted, don't you ?
That is what allows the SAAMI .458 WinMag with "hyped up ammo" (.458 WM+ handloads) to use the maximum SAAMI .458 Lott loads as starting loads and work up from there.

A compressed charge in the SAAMI .458 Lott at 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi is going to have the same degree of compression in the .458 WM+ handload with same bullet at same COL.
Pressure will be less in the .458 WM+ due to the throat. You will have to add a little more powder to the .458 WM+ to get the pressure back up to 62,500 psi.
Velocity achievable by the .458 WM+ versus the SAAMI .458 Lott is an excellent subject for further discussion.

Hype. That is how the .458 Lott made its reputation.
Jack Lott gut-shot a cape buffalo with a 510-gr RNSP from his .458 WinMag in 1959, Mozambique.
His next shot was the 500-gr FMJ RN "solid" that deformed and failed due to the high velocity of that factory ammo, and the poor construction of the factory bullet of the day.
Any higher MV would have made it worse.
Jack got tossed and some how emerged from the bushes with his worst injury being a corneal abrasion that got a complication and it took a few weeks for him to be able to see well enough to return to hunting in Mozambique with PH Wally Johnson (Walter Johnson, Sr.)
BTW, after Wally Johnson distracted the cape buffalo that Jack angered, by emptying his .375 H&H into that cape buffalo, he picked up Jack's .458 WinMag off the ground and killed the buffalo.

Fast forward from 1959 to 1971 during which time Jack continued to safari with a .458 WinMag, as did his buddy/editor Tom Siatos. Then they got the wildcatting wild hair. Tom did the 460 G&A, and inspired Jack to do the .458 Lott in 1971.

Eventually the story of "the .458 Winchester Magnum failure" morphed into no fault of Jack's gut-shooting. And the legendary .458 Lott hype began.
Never mind that Jack used a .450 Watts Magnum reamer with no throat to run into the chamber of a SAAMI .458 WinMag, preserving the terminal leade of the .458 WinMag to create the .458 Lott Wildcat by trimming the brass to 2.800". When you fire-form .375 H&H brass into .458 Lott diameter,
it shortens so that you have to trim it down to uniform and square the case mouths.
The first .458 Lott wildcat was a ".458 Lott Special" that could perform just like a SAAMI .458 WinMag firing .458 WM+ handloads, unlike the SAAMI .458 Lott with Art Alphin's fingerprints all over it.

This all sounds great but if you’re shooting factory ammo you’re going to get 2,300 fps with a Lott and about 2,150 with a WM. If you’re going to go through the mental gymnastics you suggest, you would be better off just building a .450 Ackley and have done with it.

 

[odonata]

This all sounds great but if you’re shooting factory ammo you’re going to get 2,300 fps with a Lott and about 2,150 with a WM. If you’re going to go through the mental gymnastics you suggest, you would be better off just building a .450 Ackley and have done with it.

A couple of points to consider:

• The group of hunters who are discussing these alternative options are almost never shooting factory ammo.

• The mental gymnastics of squeezing maximum potential out of a standard action is part of the appeal not an obstacle to be abandoned by going bigger. The majority of the 458 Win Mag aficionados I know own a variety of magnum length rifles & know what they’re capable of. @Riflecrank owns a 458 Lott.

• To “have done with it” is impossible. There will always be something new to try or experiment with. Talking about this one chambering ad infinitum is a lifelong activity. It may be annoying to try to discuss something with fanatics but that’s part of our charm. If you want to “have done with it”, you would be better off to just agree with us even if you think we’re wrong.

@Riflecrank what powder and barrel length are you using to achieve 2980 fps?

I was referencing that higher-velocity bullet based on a post in another discussion from earlier this year. @Riflecrank might have additional details or other examples:

From my current Ruger No.1H Tropical (24″)

On July 23/2019/ Temp 20C @ 3.325″ COL/82.5 grs H4198/ 300gr TSX = 2958, 2961 and 2959 fps (instrumental) -v. accurate! Corrected average (Chrony 15′ from muzzle) to MV = 2980 fps/5915 ft-lbs.

 

[WAB]

A couple of points to consider:

• The group of hunters who are discussing these alternative options are almost never shooting factory ammo.

• The mental gymnastics of squeezing maximum potential out of a standard action is part of the appeal not an obstacle to be abandoned by going bigger. The majority of the 458 Win Mag aficionados I know own a variety of magnum length rifles & know what they’re capable of. @Riflecrank owns a 458 Lott.

• To “have done with it” is impossible. There will always be something new to try or experiment with. Talking about this one chambering ad infinitum is a lifelong activity. It may be annoying to try to discuss something with fanatics but that’s part of our charm. If you want to “have done with it”, you would be better off to just agree with us even if you think we’re wrong.



I was referencing that higher-velocity bullet based on a post in another discussion from earlier this year. @Riflecrank might have additional details or other examples:

From my current Ruger No.1H Tropical (24″)

On July 23/2019/ Temp 20C @ 3.325″ COL/82.5 grs H4198/ 300gr TSX = 2958, 2961 and 2959 fps (instrumental) -v. accurate! Corrected average (Chrony 15′ from muzzle) to MV = 2980 fps/5915 ft-lbs.

That’s all great, but please don’t tell those of us who just hunt buffalo with them that the WM is somehow superior to the Lott. Here’s an interesting photo I’ve posted before after a little dust up in the Save. Two Lott’s and a 450 Ackley.

 

[odonata]

That’s all great, but please don’t tell those of us who just hunt buffalo with them that the WM is somehow superior to the Lott.

Thanks for sharing the photo. As someone who has only been to Africa on photo safaris, I have zero intention of telling experienced buffalo hunters anything. I'm here to learn not advise. The only thing I was trying to convey was that a lot of the 458 Win Mag fans that I know might be using a different set of criteria to determine what makes something "superior" over an expansive set of situations. For example, factory ammo limited by SAAMI specifications might not have any bearing in their overall evaluation or they might prefer to use the WM on game other than buffalo. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with that viewpoint & I enjoy reading the responses.

 

[BJH65]

I’ve found this discussion or debate quite interesting and conducted in a gentlemanly manner by all involved. There are a few of us, me definitely being one, who do not handload. While sacrilegious to many, and while I have handloaded in the past, I find it tedious and not enjoyable. It is a chore. I’ve had friends who’ve handloaded for me in the past which I’ve very much appreciated.

I do understand that to many, handcrafting one’s own reloads involving some very innovative techniques to maximize performance, use some of the latest innovative bullets and the study of these ballistics is fascinating to some, to me it’s like watching grass grow!

I wouldn’t be surprised if Riflecrank and odonata have engineering backgrounds. Nice 458 rifle btw odonata. So I shall stick with factory loads and receive the benefit of the 458 Lott in factory performance.

 

[WAB]

Thanks for sharing the photo. As someone who has only been to Africa on photo safaris, I have zero intention of telling experienced buffalo hunters anything. I'm here to learn not advise. The only thing I was trying to convey was that a lot of the 458 Win Mag fans that I know might be using a different set of criteria to determine what makes something "superior" over an expansive set of situations. For example, factory ammo limited by SAAMI specifications might not have any bearing in their overall evaluation or they might prefer to use the WM on game other than buffalo. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with that viewpoint & I enjoy reading the responses.

Understood. In Africa you must be prepared to shoot whatever ammo you can get your hands on if your ammo doesn’t show up. My DG PH’s use Lott’s and it was a key consideration when I had my rifle built. Lott ammo is pretty useless in a WM but WM ammo works just fine in a Lott. The 450 Ackley is even more flexible as it will handle its own ammo as well as that of the Lott or the WM.

I totally get the fascination with reloading to get more out of a cartridge. I’ve been reloading for 50 years, but my interest is in squeezing every ounce of accuracy and terminal performance I can out of a cartridge. The Lott is the only center fire cartridge I own that I don’t reload for. I just don’t see the point with Federal offering the TBBC in a load that generates 2,300 fps and shoots 1 moa in my rifle. If I had a .458 WM I would most certainly be reloading.

 

[IvW]

All this 458 talk has me thinking......I need one......
But it cannot have a belt or a straight wall case.....I may look further into the 458 Sabi.....fires a 550gr bullet at 2350fps at lower pressure than any other 458......
Essentialy it is a 458 Jeffery......

 

[Riflecrank]

Yes, I have a chemical engineering background and a medical doctor background.
National Merit Finalist and 99th percentile MEDCAT science score are the only things that got this Kentucky hillbilly into medical school with a USAF scholarship to pay for it.
That was back when med school admissions were not based on "Diversity Equity and Inclusion" aka DIE.
And not even Federal factory ammo is as good as handloading, for whatever cartridge.

My friend gunner500 (Sir Jerry) is a real badass in all spheres of what excites us professional small boys, like from black buffalo killing to black ops of the "our salvation" kind.
He is my hero, even if he is younger than me.
Some of his other ops below:

Sir Jerry's words about his reunion with the SAAMI .458 WinMag,
sounds like he had more fun than happens at any 50th Anniversary High School Class Reunion:

All true Sir Ron and lead me to do exactly what i just finished this morning, i went to ""The Alter of the SAAMI spec'd 458 WM"" to see just how much i could do at 3.340" and 500grs of Partition bullet fueled by AA-2460 powder, pics on the way, it was/is indeed eye opening LOL, so all the saami spec'd 458 men out there, be not dismayed, if you have a drop tube, some Accurate 2460 powder and 500grs of copper and lead you too can drive 2298 fps if you see the need.

IIRC Hodgdons site calls the 74gr charge of Accurate 2460 under 500 grainers at 53,000 psi, not 55, not 58, not 60, not 65K like the little 308 and 270 Winchester, and not a primer pocket swelling 75K, a lowly 53K, the 458 WM is truly a remarkable chambering, i have no pressure testing eq, but do remember the primers from the 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS looked great at 2418 fps and 2350 fps respectively and the pockets are still tight, those loads happily eat 83gr 2460 with col's in the 3.560-3.580 inch neighborhood.

I would have never thought of even trying for near 2300 fps with any 500gr bullet in my old FN saami length Browning, i had already loaded a literal chit-ton of 500gr partitions at 2166 with H-335 long before hearing about 2460 powder or having the pleasure of meeting Sir Ron, but as you'll see on the target box, those old loads are accurate hammers, the 50 yard bullseye was hit with a 500gr TBSS at 2200 fps with 2460 powder and the factory barrel sights, i gave it a bit more speed to run with the 500gr pointer partitions to land within the group at 100 with the scope, which it handily does, i shot it first, then screwed the scope back on with QD rings for the 100 yard group with the 500gr partitions, also, how's that for a return to zero setup? ; ]

If one wanted to shoot the 500gr partitions or 500gr PP Woodleighs when they resume production at 2300 fps, or the 450gr TSX's at 2400+ fps you'd easily have ALL game load to 300-350+ yards, the 404 Hammers at 2500 would give you 400 yards if you know your drops, that's pretty damn versatile.

Great work by gunner500.

100-yard 3-shot with scope, using 500-gr Nosler Partitions at about 2300 fps, 3.340" COL,
you have to add about 10 fps to his Pro-Chrono readings to get MVs. He has since moved on to Garmin XERO radar, me too:

50-yard bughole group with iron sights, to verify the 500-gr TBSS and 500-gr NP were close enough together to allow a test with the NP at 100 yards with scope:

That make of Browning Safari FN M98 .458 WinMag might be the most lethal elephant rifle on the planet.
Ron "Mahohbo" Thomson used one like it to take over 6000 elephant ...
But who's counting among friends anyway? ... as he might ask.

That rifle showcased above now belongs to me, and I hope the former owner, gunner500 aka Sir Jerry, does not feel like he was hornswoggled.

 

[Riflecrank]

"The higher velocity of the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum's 300Gr bullets at 2530 FPS, definitely had more visible terminal effects on lions (when taking heart-lung shots) than the 500Gr bullets of the .458 Winchester Magnum at 2040 FPS.

For this same reason, I strongly believe that calibers like the .500/416 Nitro Express or .500 Jeffrey are superior for lion hunting (when taking body shots) than the .470 Nitro Express or .500 Nitro Express.

I have no grudge against the .458 Winchester Magnum, @Riflecrank . I used it extensively in the 1970s (when big bore ammunition for no other calibers were available, barring the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum). But I must be fair and detail my observations as I see them."

Hunter-Habib has certainly made some good, experience based observations above.

That is why I recommend the 404-gr "Stone Hammer" bullet from a .458 WinMag or, if you must, a .458 Lott,
at MV of 2500 to 2600 fps and COLs of 3.38" to 3.58" to work through whatever magazine length you have. Those are 24" barrel velocities, subtract 50 fps for a 21"-barreled .458 WinMag.
Yes that is a .458 WM+ load fired in a SAAMI .458 WinMag, not a wildcat.
Easy to do for a handloader with either one of those cartridges.
That bullet will also be good at 2800 to 2900 fps from my .450 Dakota.
That should really get a lion's attention.
Maybe 2600 to 2700 fps from my .450 Barnes Supreme.
I would not recommend any faster than 2500 fps in a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Turn it into a .458 Lott Special if you want to use it regularly at 2600 fps with the 404-gr Hammer.

 

[WAB]

I’m glad you’re having fun with it! I have shot a number of buffalo with a 500 gr TBBC at 2,300 fps. It hits like the hammer of Thor. Your WM launching an A-Frame at 2,300 fps will do exactly the same.

Oh, by the by, I’m a ChE as well. PEng since 1987.

 

[Riflecrank]

Sometimes I wish I had stayed with the ChE.
Doing rectal exams on fighter pilots to make sure they were not going to pop a hemorrhoid and pass out in a high G turn was not as much fun as refining oil would have been ...