.458 Mannlicher Shonauer

[Pondoro]

Gert...I think a ghost ring zeroed at 50m (as Gruff said) is a very good solution..given the difficulty of mounting a scope on the M-S..

The ideal set up on a .458Win. in my opinion is a small Leupold in a quick-detachable mount. Thats what I have on my ZKK 602..

That gives me the opportunity to ripp that scope off if going in real close with elephant and use the express sights...I wish I had the ghost ring that the early 602s had..

 

[Bruce]

Gert,
This rifle is WAY TOO BIG for you!!!!!! I reckon it will fit my body way better.... . Taking offers?
I once had a Mannlicher Schoenhauer in 9.5mm calibre... fantastic J magazine... unfortunately it went astray with a house break in way back in 1995 and has never been recovered.
Bruce

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Thank you kindly Von Gruff, as always I appreciate and value your opinion and advice... I surely will go about the procedure you described above....do you share my opinion to go this route before mounting a scope? As pointed out , as last resort I would probably need to fit a scope later ...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Thank you kindly Pondoro/Bruce, opinions are much appreciated. Bruce, yes , I will never sell this rifle, I want to shoot it frequently...too many members mentioned they had made a mistake to sell a rifle they never should have, and that for a piece of paper with some person`s head/face on that I do not even know... No sir, I am learning from other people`s mistakes...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Pondoro, how practical /what advantage does a ghost ring have to a scope with a magnification of 1-4 x 20 mm when you shoot really close range at ten to twenty five meters at an elephant/buffalo and other game like bush pig ect? You are hunting these dangerous game animals for a living, I really want to hear from other members who use a ghost ring instead of a scope at close quarters hunting scenarios....I have never hunt dangerous game animals, probably will never get the opportunity due to a financial constraint budget...this is the reason why I ask this question.

 

[Pondoro]

Gert , I dont do it for a living, far from it.....just have been lucky and hunted elephant at a budget through good friends..

Personally I would say that I would not hunt buffalo without a scope, partly due to my eyesight and the following:

According to Craig Boddington in Safari Rifles II, PH Andrew Dawson of Zimbabwe argues that if you hunt with iron sights for buff you risk loosing some 40% of your chances to shoot due to bad light, animal partly covered by vegetation, etc.

Buffalo is normally shot at about 30 - 100 meters...and the odd up close shot...so I believe this is good advice..

Elephant hunting is 0 - 40 meters shooting. Here the use for a scope is very debatable. I have used a scoped bolt rifle in .458, but my preferred weapon for elephant is a large calibre double rifle..

The argument for a scope is of course perfect shot placement (for instance a frontal brainshot).

But I feel you may loose precious time if an attack occur or pandemomium of other animals after a shot with a scope, due to possible disorientation, you are very close even if you turn down the magnification....so I would argue using a large calibre boltrifle with express or ghost ring sights or a double rifle with express sights.

It depends what you feel most confident with...I have used iron sights a lot during my shooting years and are confident with them..

If you are confident with irons and your eyesight is not much reduced I think your odds are best with them on close up shots..

I hope some of this make sense Gert..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Thank you very much, it always is good to get perspectives from people in the field .

 

[nztimb]

I have worn glasses for the last 30 odd years and bifocals for over half of that and have thickened up the front blade sights on my rifrles so that they are easily seen but still allow for fine shooting off a rest. I have a number of rifles that will never have a scope installed that are and will remain aperture sighted and all with a methd that will allow them to be returned to original. I do have to add though that in the late evening or early morning against the bush edge there are times when visibility is reduced or at least the clarity of visability but my hunting has not and will never be for dangerous game so it is really not a concern for me.
If you are never likely to hunt DG then I cant see an occasion that would make the peep sight impractical
Ask yurself this--- how many PH's have scoped rifles and these are men who hunt the (sometimes wounded) DG into the thick stuff and they all do it with open sights so I would have to say that if you have a good front sight and even going to one of the firesights you would have a very visible front sight so with a set of binoculars which most of us carry to determine target etc this would allow for animal identification in a bush setting and then it is a simple matter to place the shot on an animal at you mentioned 10-25 meters.
You could even make a base for the Williams sight to fit onto the cocking iece of your bolt and have both elevation and windage in this one neat little package and run a firesight for the fron sight for a very good sighting system.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Thank you Von Gruff , Sir, I really appreciate your participation in this regards. I did commence designing the ghost ring/screw in peep sight head today..will upload photos as I progress.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Due to valuable input from Von Gruff and a discussion regarding what ghost ring style will be more functional to use , I decided on the Talley ghost ring sight design. It is exactly what I think will work on the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer . Here are some photos:

 

[boldo 42]

I

Royal27/Velo Dog
Thank you for the reply, it takes four in the magazine...Terry Irwin(Tanzania) and Richard Harland(Rhodesia) had the same caliber and make, they prefer this rifle to cull elephants especially when it is herds that needed to be culled in the old days( Rhodesia/Tanzania). They said this rifle did not shed the rounds when they had to shoot very quick and accurate...the only drawback was the 26" barrel since Mannlicher Schonauer company said it is the only way these rifles reach the intended velocity...Terry Irwin shot more than 1000 buffalo ....and a lot of Elephants, so did Richard Harland as well....I am extremely fortunate to got hold of this rifle...I had an offer of $5300 it equals R60000 ....from an American member on another forum...my take on it, I rather keep this rifle...money is not the only thing in the world that matters....

I'd hang on to it , i havn't seen one in 458 before , well played sir.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Boldo42, thank you kindly for the reply, I believe you never own a rifle, you are just a guardian , taking care of it , nurser it, handling it and shooting it...somewhere along the line it will be passed on to a new guardian ....I will shoot /hunt with this rifle as much as possible until it is time to hand it over to it`s new guardian.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Thanks to Von Gruff`s valuable input I commenced with initial drawings..

 

[nztimb]

You give me way too much credit Gert.
It is easy to make sugestions but it is you who will wield the tools to make this sight.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Thank you Mannlicher/Von Gruff, spend time today to work out fitting position and material needed for this project. Not much material since it will be a small ghost ring/peep sight aperture ...the ghost ring aperture will be on the large side since I need to thread it , enabling me to screw in a peep sight .....
I am looking at two options available to me :

1)Using the cocking piece sleeve to mount ghost ring. (Von Gruff`s idea/mine)

2)Using the firing pin nut to attach the ghost ring sight to.( Mannlicher`s idea) He send me photos of his rifle with the ghost ring attachments.

Photos about taking some measurements:

 

[Gert Odendaal]

While looking for the answer to design a ghost ring /peep aperture sight I stripped the Mannlicher Schoenauer bolt to see how much material I have to drill/tap or soft solder with Brownell`s High Force 44...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Need some opinion please? Looking at this photo, I removed the cocking piece with the safety still attach ..there is a gap between the safety pin and cocking sleeve ...to give me ore options to fit the ghost ring to the cocking sleeve by drill and tap method , I was wondering if the safety pin move forward to fill the gap currently visible in the cocking piece shroud...?

 

[Gert Odendaal]

I should mention that my first plan of action will be to soft solder( Brownell`s High Force solder) the ghost ring to the cocking piece sleeve ...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Good day members:
Update:Change of plan, no soldering , we decided to fit the ghost ring base substituting the flag safety.

I did spend some time working on the ghost ring project today. As usual Johan Greyling discuss the procedures needed to ensure a sound base for the ghost ring.

We decided the best option to get a sound base is to remove the flag safety and substitute it with the ghost ring base. I then copied the flag safety , file down the base ( I removed too much from the base, ) , but will use this item as a prototype ....when completed I will turn another one sine I now have all the dimensionshttp://www.**NOT**PERMITTED**.co.za/forums/images/smilies/thumb_up.gif.

This duplicate safety fits real snug in the safety housing.This will serve as a base for mounting a ghost ring. The ghost ring will be adjustable in height and wind-age will be adjusted by the front sight/bead. I still can increase the width of the safety base to dove-tail the ghost ring for wind-age adjustment as well

Keep in mind members, there is another slide safety on the right side of the action that locks up the bolt.http://www.**NOT**PERMITTED**.co.za/forums/images/smilies/thumb_up.gif
As mentioned before I can increase the width of the disk to dove tail a ghost ring fully adjustable..I now have a lot of options on this sound base... http://www.**NOT**PERMITTED**.co.za/forums/images/smilies/happy0065.gif
Removing the flag safety:

Turning a duplicate safety just shorter:

Filing the safety to fit :

New safety, the base for the ghost ring extremely stable , no movement when lock in place ...

Notice the base filed onto the new safety and the flat base on the cocking sleeve.
Safety fit into the safety housing , the disk ensure a broad base to fit the ghost ring and is extremely stable since it is standing on a flat base and under spring tension:

Ghost ring base secured and fit snug into the housing with spring tension keeping it on a flat base, no lateral/side to side movement at all:

Next phase will follow, constructing the ghost ring aperture sight....

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Thanks to Von Gruff`s valuable input I commenced with initial drawings..

I am impressed Gert. Very good idea.
Witold.